Is there something anterior to the I?

[kvotski]

I would like to be guided by someone please. I have read the instructions, part of Ilana's book and a few cases by Ilana as well as Neeel and space. I find myself in a spot similar to Ilana's Andy who carried a belief similar to my unfounded and unconfirmed belief that there is something or some intelligence that makes my hair grow and thoughts pop in from no where. I can't find this intelligence nor can I find the I but I am unsure.

As a back ground I have been throuh a few spiritual gurus and paths including krishnamurti, Buddha, oneness, isha, kundalini and guru swami G. I meditate each day and do hot and hatha yoga nearly everyday to keep the body strong enough so that I could finally see the truth before the body is done.

Thank you for doing this.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Kvotski,

I would like to be guided by someone please. I have read the instructions, part of Ilana's book and a few cases by Ilana as well as Neeel and space. I find myself in a spot similar to Ilana's Andy who carried a belief similar to my unfounded and unconfirmed belief that there is something or some intelligence that makes my hair grow and thoughts pop in from no where. I can't find this intelligence nor can I find the I but I am unsure.

As a back ground I have been throuh a few spiritual gurus and paths including krishnamurti, Buddha, oneness, isha, kundalini and guru swami G. I meditate each day and do hot and hatha yoga nearly everyday to keep the body strong enough so that I could finally see the truth before the body is done.

Thank you for doing this.

Are you still here?

Best wishes,
John

[kvotski]

yes and waiting for a guide. Not sure if this is the way to do this.

[kvotski]

I have now read few more chapters of the ebook and strongly relate to the absence of me. My reticence or block seems to be all of the prior reading which has somehow firmed up in the mind that there is something like a consciousness that is and has always been here and it is this force that I am somehow imbued with. This has no birth no death but the construct called I perishes at death or at seeing through.

My real name is Sunil.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sunil,

I have now read few more chapters of the ebook and strongly relate to the absence of me. My reticence or block seems to be all of the prior reading which has somehow firmed up in the mind that there is something like a consciousness that is and has always been here and it is this force that I am somehow imbued with. This has no birth no death but the construct called I perishes at death or at seeing through.

My real name is Sunil.

This is John from the UK. Very nice to meet you.

A few guidelines: look to post daily or post to say if a break is needed; and set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together.

Also, our disclaimer and a short video too.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

Quick questions on what was shared above:

Who owns the mind in which things seem to firm up?
This "consciousness that has always been here" - are you really interested in keeping hold of ideas and beliving them to be true, or would you rather see in direct experience what is here and now without overlays of concepts?

With best wishes,
John

[kvotski]

Who owns the mind in which things seem to firm up?
This "consciousness that has always been here" - are you really interested in keeping hold of ideas and beliving them to be true, or would you rather see in direct experience

Hi John,
Thank you for being my guide. I resonated with a lot of things you said in another post. Yes I read and agree with conditions here including posting each day.

So, owner of the mind is the same entity that is communicating here. But neither is real as this tablet or my fingers. They are both subtle things like thoughts and feelings which go away when I sleep.

No, I am not rigid about any idea. In fact what really attracted me here is that I have always had trouble with my understanding of the Buddhist view of all of this universe being an illusion or empty. It is much easier to see the universe as real and the one calling it an illusion, an illusion.

I would rather see in direct experience. I don't see colorful chakras or white light dark light. About the only unusual experience I have ever had and have is ringing in the ear. That is a direct experience.

Thanks again, John.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hey Sunil,

Hi John,
Thank you for being my guide. I resonated with a lot of things you said in another post. Yes I read and agree with conditions here including posting each day.

Cool.

So, owner of the mind is the same entity that is communicating here. But neither is real as this tablet or my fingers. They are both subtle things like thoughts and feelings which go away when I sleep.

Is this entity known in direct experience or as an idea? For example, how is it known that the entity exists? It may or may not, but how is it known, here and now? Please share what you can.

No, I am not rigid about any idea. In fact what really attracted me here is that I have always had trouble with my understanding of the Buddhist view of all of this universe being an illusion or empty. It is much easier to see the universe as real and the one calling it an illusion, an illusion.

It's even easier to put aside ALL concepts and beliefs and see what is here and now beyond any layers/ideas.

For example, right hand lifts up, and palm facing the eyes, and the palm is seen. Now, it's CALLED a "palm", but put that label to one side. Look again, what is seen. Anytime you sense a layer, idea, concept that is getting in the way of direct experience (sometimes very subtle), move to one side and look again. Get closer and closer to the mystery of what has been labelled "palm" (in English, needless to say :) )

I would rather see in direct experience. I don't see colorful chakras or white light dark light. About the only unusual experience I have ever had and have is ringing in the ear. That is a direct experience.

Seeing light is one thing - calling them chakras is another. Even "ringing in the ear" is a description. What would be below that in DE?

Nice working with you Sunil. :)

With warm wishes,
John

[kvotski]

Is this entity known in direct experience or as an idea? For example, how is it known that the entity exists? It may or may not, but how is it known, here and now? Please share what you can.

The entity is not in direct experience like the sunlight or the desk or the wind. It is an idea but its effects are felt every where. For example, the entity makes a plan to go to the store and the body does, buys milk or builds a Taj Mahal or flies a rocket to Mars. That inflicts a knowledge that the entity exists. But literally I can't find it.

For example, right hand lifts up, and palm facing the eyes, and the palm is seen. Now, it's CALLED a "palm", but put that label to one side. Look again, what is seen. Anytime you sense a layer, idea, concept that is getting in the way of direct experience (sometimes very subtle), move to one side and look again. Get closer and closer to the mystery of what has been labelled "palm" (in English, needless to say :) )

Deeper I go into the palm, still find only labels, like flesh, light reflecting from the surface, hue of something under the skin but all labels. Hard to express without labels, even in English :) Imagination seems to take over and mind comes up with molecules, atoms, strings but no DE. Yes, when the palm hits a cheek, DE of pain sensation. Snap the fingers and DE of sound. Smell of aftershave.

Seeing light is one thing - calling them chakras is another. Even "ringing in the ear" is a description. What would be below that in DE?

It is not ringing not even a sound and both are labels. It is a sensation similar to the one I have when I breathe (another label). That too is always there and involuntary. I can stop breathing temporarily. But the ringing cant be stopped although it can be ignored. So my direct experience is even less than a sensation. It is almost like thoughts.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sunil,

Is this entity known in direct experience or as an idea? For example, how is it known that the entity exists? It may or may not, but how is it known, here and now? Please share what you can.

The entity is not in direct experience like the sunlight or the desk or the wind. It is an idea but its effects are felt every where. For example, the entity makes a plan to go to the store and the body does, buys milk or builds a Taj Mahal or flies a rocket to Mars. That inflicts a knowledge that the entity exists. But literally I can't find it.

We're focussed here like a laser with a wide angle lens :) on seeing that the "Sunil" that is making plans, deciding to go to the store and so on, doesn't exist.

Does Sunil buy milk?

For example, right hand lifts up, and palm facing the eyes, and the palm is seen. Now, it's CALLED a "palm", but put that label to one side. Look again, what is seen. Anytime you sense a layer, idea, concept that is getting in the way of direct experience (sometimes very subtle), move to one side and look again. Get closer and closer to the mystery of what has been labelled "palm" (in English, needless to say :) )

Deeper I go into the palm, still find only labels, like flesh, light reflecting from the surface, hue of something under the skin but all labels. Hard to express without labels, even in English :) Imagination seems to take over and mind comes up with molecules, atoms, strings but no DE. Yes, when the palm hits a cheek, DE of pain sensation. Snap the fingers and DE of sound. Smell of aftershave.

Keep taking the labels off - see one, throw it aside, see another, throw it aside...till the seer and seen are one. Who feels the pain of a slap? Who snaps the fingers or smells the aftershave?

Seeing light is one thing - calling them chakras is another. Even "ringing in the ear" is a description. What would be below that in DE?

It is not ringing not even a sound and both are labels. It is a sensation similar to the one I have when I breathe (another label). That too is always there and involuntary. I can stop breathing temporarily. But the ringing cant be stopped although it can be ignored. So my direct experience is even less than a sensation. It is almost like thoughts.

What if the ringing is arising to no-one? Yet it is still heard or ignored.

Best wishes,
John

[kvotski]

We're focussed here like a laser with a wide angle lens :) on seeing that the "Sunil" that is making plans, deciding to go to the store and so on, doesn't exist.

Does Sunil buy milk?

No for most of these there is just a vague desire to do the chore. Feels somewhere in the body like a tense muscle or anxiousness to complete the thought into action.

Keep taking the labels off - see one, throw it aside, see another, throw it aside...till the seer and seen are one. Who feels the pain of a slap? Who snaps the fingers or smells the aftershave?

So, other than when the eyes are open, the senses all merge into an experience of a cd playing eclectic sounds which are meaningless until there is a label attached to them. Vision is very fast to call the items computer screen or lamp. Slap is just a momentary friction on the skin and the smell is actually nothing, a sensation happening somewhere in a nose.

It is not ringing not even a sound and both are labels. It is a sensation similar to the one I have when I breathe (another label). That too is always there and involuntary. I can stop breathing temporarily. But the ringing cant be stopped although it can be ignored. So my direct experience is even less than a sensation. It is almost like thoughts.

What if the ringing is arising to no-one? Yet it is still heard or ignored.

Ringing is arising to no one. Only a thought claims it is mine without any proof that this is exclusive here. It could be happening all over the universe before and after this body perishes. thoughts keep claiming it to be the real source but there is no direct experience of such a connection. it is just there.

Thank you John.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sunil,

We're focussed here like a laser with a wide angle lens :) on seeing that the "Sunil" that is making plans, deciding to go to the store and so on, doesn't exist.

Does Sunil buy milk?

No for most of these there is just a vague desire to do the chore. Feels somewhere in the body like a tense muscle or anxiousness to complete the thought into action.

Keep taking the labels off - see one, throw it aside, see another, throw it aside...till the seer and seen are one. Who feels the pain of a slap? Who snaps the fingers or smells the aftershave?

So, other than when the eyes are open, the senses all merge into an experience of a cd playing eclectic sounds which are meaningless until there is a label attached to them. Vision is very fast to call the items computer screen or lamp. Slap is just a momentary friction on the skin and the smell is actually nothing, a sensation happening somewhere in a nose.

It is not ringing not even a sound and both are labels. It is a sensation similar to the one I have when I breathe (another label). That too is always there and involuntary. I can stop breathing temporarily. But the ringing cant be stopped although it can be ignored. So my direct experience is even less than a sensation. It is almost like thoughts.

What if the ringing is arising to no-one? Yet it is still heard or ignored.

Ringing is arising to no one. Only a thought claims it is mine without any proof that this is exclusive here. It could be happening all over the universe before and after this body perishes. thoughts keep claiming it to be the real source but there is no direct experience of such a connection. it is just there.

Thank you John.

Cool.

If we check out how choosing happens...take two objects where you might choose either one. Now, set yourself the task of choosing between them and watch like a hawk and see if you can find the CHOICEPOINT where Sunil could go either way.

Also, explore choosing different things and go in search of a choicepoint.

You may even play at pretending Sunil can choose and notice what that is like.

Then compare the experiences and share what is discovered.

With best wishes,
John

[kvotski]

If we check out how choosing happens...take two objects where you might choose either one. Now, set yourself the task of choosing between them and watch like a hawk and see if you can find the CHOICEPOINT where Sunil could go either way.

Also, explore choosing different things and go in search of a choicepoint.

You may even play at pretending Sunil can choose and notice what that is like.

Then compare the experiences and share what is discovered.

Not sure what choicepoint is but here goes. I had two dinner options; make a shrimp something or tv dinner. It may sound weird but i do like this chicken glaze smart choice low cal TV dinner. When I say I like means it has tasted good in the past. But then at the last minute I decide to cook the shrimp. Very involved decision based on utility and perhaps a wish for a new taste. It turned out well but it could have been a disaster as well. I have no idea what made the change of mind. Not feeling not laziness not even taste. It was spontaneous, out of the blue.

I am sitting surfing the net and have a need to go to the bathroom. Want to go but the body is not desperate. So we carry on surfing. Eventually the pressure builds and we must go, a decision made by the body. So the decision point wasn't a critical one until absolutely necessary.

I had a yoga class at 9 am. It is 8 but the body is tired and wants more sleep. Big argument ensues internally, to get up or not. No idea who is Sunil, who is the body but there is no way a decision can be made to get up. So we lie there. Until the cat decides to intervene and wants food. By this time the body's need to sleep is gone. A choice point is reached and a decision is made to get up. Of course missed the morning yoga.

Looking back in history, some of the crucial decisions were made not based the best factors but sometimes foolish pride, emotional outbursts and more often based on external factors. The universe made most of the choices for me and perhaps all around this nonexistent me. This is wild. Yet there is this me inside taking credit of all, even this writing.

Decided to force a decision but just noticed that when meditating it is so hard to even quieten thoughts. How would one of those thoughts which pretends to be me can force a decision? All decisions seem to be linked to many events, prior decisions and external factors. If I force a desire to get up now, something immediately comes up and asks why. There is a real democracy going on in here, sometimes war too. But an autocratic decision seems nearly impossible here.

Hope that's what you wanted. Thanks.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sunil,

As you can see, it appears that decisions are made sometimes by you and sometimes by something other than you, which we later lay claim to. :)

Now, to really see if we ever make decisions, focus in on a simple decision between two things - coffee or tea, salt or pepper, red or white, this pen or that pen...two things in which you could choose either.

Ok, so lay them in front of you.

First thing, notice if there is a "Sunil" in the building doing the exercise or whether the fiction has evaporated for the moment. :)

Either way, look at the two objects and go about choosing to pick one of them up.

As you go about that, there's an awareness of the process. Notice: are any thoughts or feelings initiated by "Sunil"? or do thoughts and feelings show up?

If there any point where "Sunil" could intervene? Try. Does "Sunil" intervene? Or does "intervening happen"? Or something else?

Am not looking for any right answers here - only to explore in experience what is happening.

WIth best wishes,
John

[kvotski]

Hi Sunil,

As you can see, it appears that decisions are made sometimes by you and sometimes by something other than you, which we later lay claim to. :)

Now, to really see if we ever make decisions, focus in on a simple decision between two things - coffee or tea, salt or pepper, red or white, this pen or that pen...two things in which you could choose either.

Ok, so lay them in front of you.

First thing, notice if there is a "Sunil" in the building doing the exercise or whether the fiction has evaporated for the moment. :)

No where to find really. There is a repeating thought that I want to chose an object (one of the two flutes) but cant find who this I is.

There is an awareness here of the whole process and relief when a choice has been made.

Either way, look at the two objects and go about choosing to pick one of them up.

As you go about that, there's an awareness of the process. Notice: are any thoughts or feelings initiated by "Sunil"? or do thoughts and feelings show up?

Mind wanders tries to find something useful to do. Finds the exercise a game without any goal.
Another thought intervenes by saying may be the result will shed some light on whether I am here or not.
Mind goes into intricate comparison of the two flutes, make, ability to play a nice note, color, preferences.
Hand picks up one and starts playing with it but since I have nothing to play, puts it down.

If there any point where "Sunil" could intervene? Try. Does "Sunil" intervene? Or does "intervening happen"? Or something else?

Am not looking for any right answers here - only to explore in experience what is happening.

WIth best wishes,
John

An intervention happens as a simple task has been made into a big story already. White one is picked because of a story about it. There is a stamp on it saying it was made in KORG which is a nice hill station. The blue one has no story. Mind loves stories and it now prefers the white one. Nothing to do with its performance or use as they are all the same.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sunil,

Nice work. So who or what decided which flute to pick up?

With best wishes,
John