Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

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Sat Seeker
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Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Sat Seeker » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:57 am

Hello,

I'm a guy from Israel, in my early thirties. My search began at around age 15, on and off, and became intense in the last 10 years. I have been involved in Buddhism, Osho, Fourth Way, Shaktipat, Neo-Advaita, and mostly in the last few years with traditional Advaita Vedanta. Also had a wonderful independent teacher who helped me see through many illusions in life. Did a lot of Ramana /Nisargadatta Self inquiry. But it was only until 2 years ago, reading Jed Mckenna, that I realized that I'm going in the wrong direction, accumulating knowledge, instead of checking what is true in my own authority.

My spiritual journey was also characterized in special spiritual experiences on a daily basis (part of them I created with special meditations...), and when I decided to focus on truth instead, those experiences faded, and I found myself with a big sense of lack, depressions and despair.
Generally, over time (and because of the intensity of seeking) I became very exausted and sad, feeling a failure, and a sense that I will never get it. Few months ago I tried to end the search with local teachers, then with Dolano in India, but it didn't work. Unfortunately, I had very bad experience with Dolano, which led to frequent anxiety attacks and depressions. It was the first time in my spiritual search (and in my life), that I started to be concerned about my mental stability. I felt as if I sacrified my life with the purpose of liberation, but the result was increased suffering, a sense of no meaning, feeling stuck in unwanted world, and total boredom of life. On the other hand, though, it seemed that my clarity about truth has been growing over the years, just without any experiential effect.

While travelling in the east Asia recently, I started to read the gateless gate crashers book which was downloaded in my computer, and felt that this is a big blessing. Just an amazing book, straight to the point. Things became much more clear and simple, in a way they never were before. Then, back home, I was lucky to find Ingen in the internet. I was interested to be guided in LU, and she kindly offered her guidance. We have been talking through emails, and I felt much more clarity. It started with big expectations, after reading so many books about enlightenment. Then we had investigations about "I". Ingen taught me the precious thing of looking directly without thinking (as I have a strong tendency to intellectualize). When I look, I see an experience observed, everything is just "there", and the "I" or an "observer" is an idea that comes only afterwards. The "I" is actually a story, but I still tend to believe it, as well as believing other stories.

The sticky point as I see it, is denial of truth, out of fear. Even when I recognize truth, thoughts come telling me that I don't really know what is true. There is a fear of losing control (it triggers memories of feeling helpless as a child), fear of a compromise - to accept half-truth as truth and remain half-baked, fear of staying with bad and meaningless life. It seems that I expect to see "no self" all the time, I do not trust it yet, and want to look again and again to verify it. The assumption of "I" is still very sticky, after long years of habit.
We've gone through many "stories", which will be difficult to write here in details, but I can say that there is a lot clarity about many things, and I'm so grateful for Ingen and this wonderful organization.
Since I started the process, I have been experiencing sessions of surrender, followed by strong resistance/mind attacks/despair. My mind is quite stiff and stubborn, but I feel that these investigations crack it more and more.
I am so longing for liberation, after long years of exhausting seeking. I wish to see "no self" clearly, and to live due to this recognition. I'm very committed to the process.

I would be so grateful to continue the guidance here with Ingen (welcoming other guides' comments, of course).
Since I have big expectations, I was suggested to consider myself "done" as an exercise, and see what happens, and how the "I" mechanism functions and tries to protect it self.

Deep gratitude,
Sat-seeker (can be called also L.D)

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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Sat Seeker » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:15 pm

Update of today - I can notice that I expect something, that I'm dissatisfied with what is, that I wish to be aware to "no self" continuously (or to not have an assumption of "I" at all), that I expect natural flowing. Something is vague in the perception, and it's not easy to spot it.
There is a tendency to buy the story that there is an "I" controlling and experiencing, even though I've seen that things happen on their own. I trust my habitual thinking more than truth. When I look directly, "no self" is not immediate. I need to make effort, and look without thoughts, in order to see again that self is an added story. There is a confusion of impersonal awareness, and subtle sensations in my face and breathing, which gives an impression of an "observer". But those sensations are only observed, and the observer is an idea. Why is it so difficult to be brave and roar with the truth of "nobody's home"? :/, maybe I gain something from not succeeding? a feeling of hope for the future, and a meaning in life?
I know there is no self other than ideas and images, and yet, the discrimination between ideas/images and reality is vague. Maybe meditation is the pill? When my mind is clear, however, and I look as it is my first time in this world, I can see clearly what is, and what isn't. I'm probably addicted to thoughts, and their world creation, as I find it quite difficult to stop and look...

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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Sat Seeker » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:54 pm

Additionally, another sticky thing is the bodily sensations of resistance. These sensations, that are often present, are labeled as "mine" and as "bad". Even though that it's a label, I still believe there is something inherently wrong with them. Unpleasant bodily sensations, invite automatically (in my case) the wish to change the situation.

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Ingen
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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Ingen » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:26 pm

Hi L.D., welcome to the forum!

as we had talked about, I have invited some other guides to chime in.

Let me recap: You see that there is no I in direct experience, but you prefer to believe in "it" anyway. You are afraid of unbelieving it, because this requires effort and it might lead to a bad and boring life full of unpleasant feelings.

(I know I have formulated oversimplisticly...)

How is it right now? What is wrong with this moment?

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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Sat Seeker » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:09 pm

Dear Ingen,
Thank you for responding.
If I'm trying to be most accurate, I can say that the clarity of what I see, depends on the way I look, and how much old ideas present in that direct looking. When I look with deep focus, I can sometimes see that "I" is completely a story added to the experience. Sometimes, I see that "I" is nowhere to find, but somehow there is still an underlying assumption of "I". Alternatively, sometimes a mix between awareness and sensations/images, give the impression of an observer, and I believe this labeling. I think that I'm afraid to unbelieving it, but also deluded easily by stories. I believe whatever my mind tell me, and would like to break this habit.
What is wrong now? there are unpleasant sensations, resistance sensations, and a thought that "something is not ok, and I wish for something else", more enjoyable or interesting. At the times I see no-self clearly, this thought does not appear. There is a fear to compromise and say that the moment is fine, while I know that there is no full clarity. It's a protection mechanism. Had I not been a seeker, I would tell you that this moment is fine. Most people will say that if you ask how they feel, but they are not liberated.
Since I know I'm not "done", and not clear enough, I can't declare that everything is ok now. Oh, is that a loop?
I can partially see the stories during my writing...a story that an experience can be labeld as "good" or "bad", or holding to logical structures for protection. Still, it's very persistent...

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Ingen
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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Ingen » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:29 pm

Since I know I'm not "done", and not clear enough, I can't declare that everything is ok now. Oh, is that a loop?
Read that again :)

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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby roaringsilence » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:31 pm

Hi LD. I'm Peter, Good to meet you. I recognise my own journey in your words. I think i have been where you are now and would like to try and offer assistance.

What happens if you from your own direct experience look straight at the mind with a friendly feeling and ask it to speak to you? What does it say? What is this fear and resistance that it keeps coming up with? Can you ask it like you would talk to a scared and stressed child?

Take your time.
Send love to it and let it speak.

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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Rita Friedman » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:14 pm

Hi Sat Seeker :) you seem pretty clear , lol ! You even answered your own question that you asked of Ingen . WHAT believes it is "not done" ? What benefits from not being "done" ? Read this last sentance several times. What is noticed ?

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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Sat Seeker » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:23 pm

Hi Ingen,

I'm sure this sentence is funny :), I will try to process it...I can see that in this moment, there is an experience and no thought. The story about "done", is irrelevant to the moment. I must go to the memory for that, check that if I'm done, by some definition of what done is, then use a logical conclusion that if I'm not done, the moment is not ok.
It's far beyond what is being asked.
It seems that OK or not OK is always for someone, it assumes an "I", otherwise it has no meaning (OK = "I want it"). Believing the thought "I want X", and the bodily sensations labeled as "unpleasant" that follow this belief, are at the core of perceiving the experience as not being OK. But I don't know how to stop believing desires, or the labels of unpleasant (which is the same thing)...
I have heard few times in my life a saying "There is suffering, but no sufferer". For me it was a source for confusion, and now doesn't make sense that there is any objective suffering.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Peter,
It is very comforting to meet someone with a similar story, that finally passed through the gate. Much thanks for writing to me.
I asked the "inner child" and it says (not filtered...) - "I am afraid that reality will be bad to me as it was in the past when I was young and had undeveloped mind. I don't trust reality as I remember myself helpless and abandoned, stuck with suffering without any tools to control it. I think that reality is bad, and there will always be problems, physical pain, discomfort, limitations, and boring routine. I can't see how reality turns into something good or even neutral. I'm afraid to surrender to a bad reality that betrayed me, I'm afraid to discover a truth where there is no solution to suffering with no way back. I'm not sure if the truth will have any effect on me as on others. I don't see how no-self realization cancells the suffering which is integral part of life. I'm afraid from a big change and dissapointment after many years of seeking. I'm afraid to lose my hopes about something really good waiting for me in the future. I don't like experience flow without any point, just running like this forever, including always good and bad"

Yes, quite a luggage :/ I wasn't even aware how much I feel betrayed by reality.
I will stay with these feelings/ideas for longer, letting them express themselves...
As an adult I can see here stories, and a lot of untrue conclusions, but this is what emotions tell...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Rita, thank you for writing to me.
When I look, I can't find something/someone that believes "it is not done". It's a little vague though. The assumption of "I" is still in the background, but it doesn't make sense that "I" as an idea, is believing it.
I hope I'm not intellectualizing, sometimes (like now) I'm not sure if I talk from my mind or really grasping it.

What benefits from not being done?
I wrote a list of benefits and only later saw that the question is "what benefits", but I will leave the list here anyway.
Benefits - seeking occupies my daily life and makes it more interesting, there is hope and meaning in that. My all life is around seeking, I lost other interests. By not being done, fantasies about truth implications are held. It enables to a run away from life as it is. There is also some distorted sweetness in the misery of failing, and feeling a lost case and a victim, and it's probably another proof that reality is bad, and an excuse not to surrender to it...

As to the question itself, it's a good one. It's difficult to understand what benefits. There is an assumption or a story that "I" will benefit, but when I look directly this assumption weakens. What is lableled as "benefit" will be experienced, but I don't know about point of reference. My assumptions and what is seen are in conflict. I wish to see clearly that there is no "me" benefits (or suffers). It's mind blowing, and in the core of resistance to life.

What is noticed? I read several time...I'm not so sure, but there is silence and I can see these stories of "done" and "benefits" as stories (at least to some degree of clarity).

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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Ingen » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:25 pm

Good morning L.D.,
I don't know how to stop believing desires, or the labels of unpleasant (which is the same thing)...
Did you try to just allow the unpleasant feelings to be, instead of saying "I'm not there yet, because I (!) shouldn't have to feel unpleasant feelings?"

Sometimes life consists of unpleasant feelings PLUS the thought "I shouldn't feel this way", PLUS the thought "If I think that I'm not done".

Is there a thinker of these thoughts, a feeler of these feelings?

Can a thought think?

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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Sat Seeker » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:43 pm

Dear Ingen,
Yes, you described this thinking habit/loop very nicely...
I'm actually worried too much about the problem of "unpleasant sensations", and how to be 100% OK with them (which is quite a difficult mission...), and it's probably more conductive to just focus on the "I", and accept thoughts of resistance to pain/discomfort in the meanwhile. So I will try allowing that. Regarding the other questions, I will keep observing and write here later.
Best, L.D

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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Sat Seeker » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:35 pm

Hi again,
About thinker and feeler : the underlying assumption that there is "er", or some abstract point of reference, still exists in the background. The answer "no" does not come immediately. There is vagueness because of the habit to believe this story. But when I look fresh, there is an experience, and the rest is an idea. It sometimes even feels wierd that such an idea developed in awareness.
If I ask myself "is there a thinking or a thinker?" it's quite clear that the first in more actual, that thoughts just pop up, and known (again, I was tempted to write "known to me"...).
Can a thought think? no, a thought is an output, it is not a living entity, and it does not have any capacity to think.

I would like to write an update - today I woke up with a sense of intimidating meaningless. It happens almost everyday that I feel so tired and bored of life, but since I'm trying now to get rid of fantasies I know that it will not change (i.e, life will not end suddenly with truth realization). So life will manifest anyways and I can't run away. It triggered another mind attack, with a lot of negative thinking. There was also an "I" there that was very bothered and frustrated by the situation, thinking that my mind is too stiff and too much in conflict with life to surrender, and I probably need years until it will get softer, and will be able to see that content of thought is only imagination.
After our correspondence, in the evening, it was different. Stopping caring about sensations was a relief, and mind became lighter. It became more clear then that an experience is just there and I cannot run away from life as it is now. I did not feel supressed by it, or resistance to the moment, it was more like resting in the experience and it brought some relief. There is a thought very often that I need to look again and again until what is recognized will win over the habitual thinking, so I'm just looking in various ways focusing on "I"\"mine" and asking questions that are suggested in LU (I hope that is OK...).
Best, L.D

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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Ingen » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:01 pm

It happens almost everyday that I feel so tired and bored of life, but since I'm trying now to get rid of fantasies I know that it will not change (i.e, life will not end suddenly with truth realization). So life will manifest anyways and I can't run away.
It sounds a bit like getting sober, don't you think?

You are on the right track!! Immerse yourself in the "can't run away from life", there is nothing outside of this moment.The hope for escape is the trap that is holding a "you" in its grip.

Just keep looking! Who is driving the car? Who is going to the store? How do decisions happen? Did you decide to smile to your neighbor, or get angry at him?

Happy looking!

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Sat Seeker
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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Sat Seeker » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:21 am

Right, it is getting sober, a mourning period.

I will look happily and report!

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Re: Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

Postby Yari » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:10 am

Hello L.D,

while reading what you' re writing it is becoming clear that you're directly gazing at what's on the other side of the gate already.
You' re unknowingly there already, perhaps more than half in but still clinging for some reason, you just can't see that you can drop it so easily, so easily... with just a little act of surrender.

Thanks to all of your past readings and seeking you now have all the tools. It's not gonna hurt, all the opposite.
So why don't you just finish this and overcome your fear and confusion for the last step?

You know, it will be a big, big relief...

Maybe meditation is the pill? When my mind is clear, however, and I look as it is my first time in this world, I can see clearly what is, and what isn't.
Yes, meditation is key because when you are in a meditative state your mind is just empty and there is no identity, just clear presence. Identity is "the idea of yourself", made of a compound of thoughts and nothing else, agree?

So right at that still point observe: out of the silence, when the mind starts its dialogue again, what is the "me" word, how does it manifest exactly?
Can you see it is an empty word that came out of the silence and it is refering to nobody actually, but then immediately attached to the identity structure?

There is an identity, it is just not you, it is existing independently.

There is a tendency to buy the story that there is an "I" controlling and experiencing, even though I've seen that things happen on their own.
All of that is happening on its own too.

It is observed while it's happening.

It's like when you are in a dream, you now belive to be the main character, but you're actually the whole dream. There is only the dream.
This way, whatever happens is just a series of events happening on their own with no control from the mind you belive yourself to be, the mind itself is actually not moving, but it is moved.
The "I" internal dialogue is a monologue, a narration spoken by the dream itself.

subtle sensations in my face and breathing, which gives an impression of an "observer". But those sensations are only observed, and the observer is an idea.
You gotta separate truth from ideas now. Ideas here are not useful, they only confuse.

(you' re on the edge now, you' ve had enough of all those ideas from all those tiring years with books, satsangs and other people's claims, you piled up concepts and now there is no more room for intellectualization, you must take them apart.
You dont need them anymore, you're almost done. Not trash completely, but put them apart for now)


If you say the Observer is an idea then you're stucked in mental images of how this "should" be.
(in your head you built a concept of the "observer")

There is ONLY the Observer.

The observer is reality itself.

The simplest thing.
It is not an idea...it is the Presence, that which is refered to as Consciousness or Awareness...what mystical thing do you think this is? It is THIS. It is everywhere, it is inside and outside of you, it is ALL things because there is only it.

And "it", the Observer, is the field in which everything is happening. It is THIS.

I'm afraid from a big change and dissapointment after many years of seeking.
You will be disappointed indeed, because it is what you had in front of your eyes for your entire life, nothing more. Well, actually something LESS, your-self.

But since there is a shifting, an opening in your perception (due to the destruction of a fixed idea who grew too much...) the good news is that you "gain" a point of view on things, a wider spectrum. If you were seeking something, you won't find it for sure, but something much bigger will open...
I'm afraid to lose my hopes about something really good waiting for me in the future.
What do you want? Hopes about what? Ideas, expectations...that is still mind.
You can drop all that and enjoy what is present here, in the present moment. It is ALWAYS the present moment. Don't be afraid, there is not a future either, future only exist in the mind.


I want to be honest with you: you won't lose your mind, you won't lose your identity, you can keep all of that and use them to interface with the world. Projection of the past, memories and projection of the future can still happen. Mind will be still used as a tool. You just see that none of those things are belonging to anyone.
You can keep using the mind, so there is no reason to still be scared.

I don't like experience flow without any point
Oh man, then you took the wrong path...get away if you dont wanna find that out! ehehe

But dont worry, since you'll keep the mind, you can make up a meaning, any meaning you want.

:-)


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