Guide

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Sarah7
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Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:42 pm

Hi my name is Sarah and Im 47.
I am wanting a guide. I am reading the book and answering as best I can. I have only done 2 years meditation, finding it didnt do what I wanted - I calmed down but no questions were answered. I have read Tolle, Mckenna and Katie. so not much really. But I seem to be following a distinct thread. 'I' is very loud in/with me. I am also a school teacher. I say this not to have anything to do with 'I' but because I will endeavour to answer daily. However I do find that work gets in the way (or 'I' gets in the way of me there) of this. I do not know how to say this.
I get very confused with words and their meaning, and like very precise language like Mckenna.
Lastly I have no idea how to do this ICT thing, so hope this goes where it is supposed to.
I hope there is someone patient who has the time to help me.
Thanking whoever you are in advance.
Love
Sarah

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Devina
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Re: Guide

Postby Devina » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:31 pm

> Hi my name is Sarah and Im 47.

Hi Sarah. I will be happy to guide.

> I have only done 2 years meditation, finding it didnt do what I wanted - I calmed down but no questions were answered.

No questions were answered? Great! That’s less to confuse. There’s really only one question here, and no need for years of meditation experience to test it.

> I have read Tolle, Mckenna and Katie. so not much really.

This is plenty, and more than plenty. You know the basics; now drop them, and focus on the truth that is right here now.

Knock on a table. What is the experience? Sound, color, feeling? When does “I” come into it? Look closely and describe precisely.

> 'I' is very loud in/with me.

Be specific with this. What is very loud? How does it appear, and at what point is it labeled “loud”?

Does the loud “I” exist right now without thought, or does it require a lot of explanation, a story?

Does the loud "I" do everything you think a self would do?

> I will endeavour to answer daily.

Great! Take as much time as needed with this. There are no wrong answers.

Much love, Sarah.

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Sarah7
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Re: Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:42 am

Thanks for getting back to me. I may have to digest questions if that is OK. I will take them off here and answer them then post them back - is that OK? Will hopefully come back to you tonight.
Thanks Davina.
Sarah
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Devina
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Re: Guide

Postby Devina » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:38 pm

That is fine, Sarah. Take time and experiment, and see you tonight.

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Sarah7
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Re: Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:55 pm

Hi Devina

Heres what I got.

(Knock on a table. What is the experience? Sound, color, feeling? When does “I” come into it? Look closely and describe precisely) - When I knocked on the bath I heard the sound, I felt the texture, I looked at the colour and the smooth surface –‘ I’ described all of that I suppose, especially ‘I’ involved as ‘I’ liked touching the smooth surface. If it had hurt ‘I’ would have said a story of ‘Ouch that was stupid’. Just touching though there is just that – touching.

('I' is very loud in/with me. Be specific with this. What is very loud? How does it appear, and at what point is it labeled “loud”?) – I hear ‘my’ voice loudly in my head – talking away. It’s there a lot, its here right now reading this out loudly as I write. Am I getting confused with this and ego ’I’? I always feel that ‘I’ wants to be in on the act – whatever that act is. The main time I am not aware of I is when I make Art or I concentrate on something. Then ‘I’ is silent. This I have experienced. I do get this at other times, but mostly when making Art. After Ive made Art ‘I’ comes in loud and clear going ‘wow’, or ‘look what you have done’ etc…
When I teach I know after the fact not usually during that ‘I’ has felt threatened or challenged because I has labelled the experience and reacted immediately. There is a large difference between home and school with responding to ‘I’.
My thoughts do drift in and out at other times but I am not always aware of what I have thought, they feel quite dreamy and none specific. At other times I can hear ‘myself’ clearly make a judgement or criticize etc.
I label ‘I’ loud coz I hear it loudly most of the time. I don’t know how to explain this coz it just sounds like my loud voice in my head. In the ‘Gateless’ book others describe ‘I’ as a presence – I agree it is that too. Sometimes it feels lurky and hidden in the background.

(Does the loud “I” exist right now without thought, or does it require a lot of explanation, a story?) – ‘I’ does require a lot of explanation (like this I suppose), and it most certainly uses story – my ‘I’ makes up conversations, scenarios and projections A LOT. Intellectually I know ‘I’ doesn’t exist without thought – and I know it isn’t there when I make Art.

(Does the loud "I" do everything you think a self would do?) – I don’t understand this. I dont know what you mean by self.

Have I written too much? I have tried to answer honestly and from experience.

Sarah
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Devina
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Re: Guide

Postby Devina » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:31 pm

Hi again Susan. Good work so far!
Have I written too much? I have tried to answer honestly and from experience.
This is a great start. Writing in detail is fine, it's just the philosophical discussions that can get off track. We're not here to discuss theory, just experience.
When I knocked on the bath I heard the sound, I felt the texture, I looked at the colour and the smooth surface...
Try this some more, to check even closer. "I heard the sound" is a summary. What happens in actual perception? Watch the moment like a cat watches a mouse hole.

Does "I" decide which sounds to hear?

Are the colors "looked at," or is there just color?

Does texture "go" somewhere, to an "I" who feels it?
Just touching though there is just that – touching.
Yes. This is a good observation.
Am I getting confused with this and ego ’I’?
It doesn't matter how many different types of "I" there are. None of them exist. Any sentence with "I" or "me" or "mine" in it points to someone imaginary.

Don't take my word for this. Check and see if it's true!
I hear ‘my’ voice loudly in my head – talking away. It’s there a lot, its here right now reading this out loudly as I write.


Is it "my" voice, or is it just noise? If it were "your" voice, wouldn't you be able to stop it, or turn down the volume?

What happens to cause each of "your" words to arise? Where do they come from? Watch the mouse hole!
I know it isn’t there when I make Art.


So, during work on art, the voice isn't there. Is anyone? What makes the art?

You're doing great, Sarah. Keep looking! Much love. :)

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Sarah7
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Re: Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:58 pm

Hi again
(Try this some more, to check even closer. "I heard the sound" is a summary. What happens in actual perception? Watch the moment like a cat watches a mouse hole). - I will try this again and watch.
(Does "I" decide which sounds to hear?) - It certainly decides which sound to be annoyed by so it must decide what to hear, respond to, acknowledge.
(Are the colors "looked at," or is there just color?) - There is just colour with a label attached to say what it is.
(Does texture "go" somewhere, to an "I" who feels it?) - Texture is felt but I interprets.
(Is it "my" voice, or is it just noise?) - its noise. I cant stop it. Tried that in meditation. Didn't work.
(If it were "your" voice, wouldn't you be able to stop it, or turn down the volume?) - Yes.
(What happens to cause each of "your" words to arise?) - Thoughts. Words are thoughts, images and noise.
(Where do they come from?) - Dont know - they just are there.
Will mull some more on this. How do you do the quote bubble thing?
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Sarah7
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Re: Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:11 pm

Just read about the pink quoting thing. Will have a go next time!
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Devina
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Re: Guide

Postby Devina » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:55 pm


(Does "I" decide which sounds to hear?) - It certainly decides which sound to be annoyed by so it must decide...
This is an assumption. What actually happens in perception?
There is just colour with a label attached to say what it is.
When does the label appear?
When does the label of "I" appear?

Try this one again:
Does texture "go" somewhere, to an "I" who feels it?
Does it travel through the fingers, up the arm, into the body, where it smacks into a person?
(If it were "your" voice, wouldn't you be able to stop it, or turn down the volume?) - Yes.
So is this voice/noise "You"?
(What happens to cause each of "your" words to arise?) - Thoughts.
What causes thoughts?

You've said that during work on art, the voice isn't there. Is anyone? What makes the art?

Next time there is art, or dish-washing, or any physical activity... notice how it happens. What causes each movement?

You're doing great, Sarah. Keep moving along!

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Re: Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:45 am

Does I decide what sounds to hear? - I tried this again. I heard sounds or my the brain said there were. If I had heard it before the brain gave it a name or I did. If I hadnt heard it before the brain/I tried to decipher it by comparing with other sounds to give it a name/label. If I were baby I would not be able to label. My brain/I maybe would not even respond or register a sound. The word noise or sound is a lable too. I found I spun stories/explanations round sounds too. I wanted to know what it was. The ears recieve the sounds but I have no idea what the brain does with it. I know the brain changes images through flipping, interpretation and perception. There is a sound, there is a brain, there are ears. Does the brain add the 'I' or is 'I' seperate? Is 'I' a part of interpretation?
Does 'I' decide what to respond to? - It decides what to respond to. What it can latch onto and bring itself in on. 'I like that' etc.... I am listening whilst doing this and if I concentrate and just listen - there is no 'I'. But then 'I' barges in and makes its pressence known again.
When making Art I dont think I is there. There is no 'I' thinking - there are decisions - and I do get confused by this - but they seem to be about what colour rather than that voice.
What makes Art? - This body does, this arm, this hand, this brain - there is just making. There is quiet, peace and lots of space.
I will take the above home and get back to you later. I do like to digest questions. My brain doesnt always make obvious connections that other make quickly - it does need space. I do like to go over things thoroughly but I may not understand what you want me to look for. The cat at a mousehole was cool. I got that clearly.
Thank you.
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:36 pm

Does "I" decide which sounds to hear? - It certainly decides which sound to be annoyed by so it must decide...This is an assumption. What actually happens in perception? – Do you mean hear or notice? I hear thousands of sounds a day but I don’t notice/register most of them. There is just hearing – ears, a body and a brain. When I concentrate on hearing I hear lots of things. When I don’t concentrate the sounds just seem to float past me. I am a bit stuck here.

There is just colour with a label attached to say what it is. When does the label appear? When does the label of "I" appear? – When I look at colour it feels the first response to it is whether I like it or not, but that is an ‘I’ label too isn’t. It comes in straight away, the taste labeling. Taste is ‘I’ too isn’t it?

Does texture "go" somewhere, to an "I" who feels it? Does it travel through the fingers, up the arm, into the body, where it smacks into a person? – I found this question easier to understand. The texture does not go anywhere. The perception of the texture does. That travels to the brain where the brain interprets the information. There is the surface, the fingers, the feeling, the perception. The messages to the brain (is the brain ‘I’????? or just a thinking tool, if not, the ‘I’ thought comes from somewhere else?????) are interpreted and ‘I’ attaches to the perception. ‘I’ may come in earlier with the urge to touch. The texture does not smack into anyone.

If it were "your" voice, wouldn't you be able to stop it, or turn down the volume?) - Yes. So is this voice/noise "You"? – I want to say no, but it feels like yes. I perceive my voice coz I have interpreted it as such so it must be a thought, one that has persisted and been with me since ‘I’ grew. I am so convinced by it I don’t know what else to say.

What happens to cause each of "your" words to arise?) - Thoughts. What causes thoughts? – Events, images, senses, smells, feeling etc…. Thoughts are a response to external stimuli. But I think they are also just there. When I used to meditate there was little external stimuli but still the thoughts came in in response to memory and/or events. When I go to sleep there is little/no external stimuli but they are still there.

You've said that during work on art, the voice isn't there. Is anyone? What makes the art? Next time there is art, or dish-washing, or any physical activity... notice how it happens. What causes each movement? – I was eating my tea doing this. Most of the time I was not aware, there was just eating. Body, mouth etc all doing what they do. But then I am aware and awareness seems to bring ‘I’ in – I don’t know if awareness and ‘I’ are the same thing????? Everything seems to know what to do until I notice, then the process of eating seems to stumble or go wrong. Its like my awareness gets in the way. I don’t know why the hand lifts the fork - it just does. I can direct the fork but that is concentration. I don’t really need to interfere.
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Devina
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Re: Guide

Postby Devina » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:10 am

The word noise or sound is a lable too.
Yes! Good insight.

A label cannot possibly capture the full experience of the thing it points at. Reality is pre-verbal. Babies see the same reality as adults - the same noises and colors - they just don't have words for it.

This is why I offered the exercise with knocking on the bath. The feeling, sound, experience of it is more visceral than words. It exists without a need to explain it. That is reality.

"I" is a label. Does the label point to something real and pre-verbal? Can you knock on "I"?
There is a sound, there is a brain, there are ears.
Knock on something again. Watch carefully. Is there a sound, brain, or ears? Which of those three is real?Which can be witnessed as undeniably true, without using theories heard from other people?

In the knocking exercise, is there any difference between the words "brain" and "my brain"? Do they point to anything real? Something a baby could see?

More soon.

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Re: Guide

Postby Devina » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:04 am

Does the brain add the 'I' or is 'I' seperate? Is 'I' a part of interpretation?
Check! Watch. How does a thought start? When does the word "I" appear? Does someone put it there?
When making Art I dont think I is there. There is no 'I' thinking - there are decisions - and I do get confused by this - but they seem to be about what colour rather than that voice.


Sure. Let's sort out the confusion.

This is another exercise in watching thought:

Make a decision. Any decision. A simple one. Soup or salad? Paper or plastic? Pen or pencil? Red or blue? Left foot or right foot?

Observe carefully as it happens. How was the decision made? Is someone there deciding? Is there a moment where a king stamps his scepter and declares a winner? Or is there simply recognition of which option has already won?
Everything seems to know what to do until I notice, then the process of eating seems to stumble or go wrong. Its like my awareness gets in the way. I don’t know why the hand lifts the fork - it just does. I can direct the fork but that is concentration. I don’t really need to interfere.
Amazing, isn't it? But... can "you" really interfere? Does more attention to the fork actually control its direction?
What makes Art? - This body does, this arm, this hand, this brain - there is just making. There is quiet, peace and lots of space.

Beautiful, Sarah.

How is this different than any other moment in life?

Much love. :)

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Sarah7
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Re: Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:26 pm

"I" is a label. Does the label point to something real and pre-verbal? Can you knock on "I"? – No. ‘I’ is just a label. It’s conditioning, programming. The baby cannot see ‘I’ or point to it and neither can I point to ‘I’. I think its part of the brain, the thoughts but it wouldn’t be there if you hadn’t been programmed to have it, or see it, or expect it. You cannot knock on it coz its not there. ‘I’ is ownership, its laying claim to something or some body e.g. ‘my’ body. Does it point to something pre verbal? As to that, I don’t know. I know I exist, ‘I am’. So does ‘I am’ encompass something preverbal? I don’t know. I don’t know how else to explain ‘me’, ‘this I consciousness’.

”Knock on something again. Watch carefully. Is there a sound, brain, or ears? Which of those three is real? Which can be witnessed as undeniably true, without using theories heard from other people?” – I cannot prove the sound, my brain tells me it’s heard, but I cannot prove it. To see the brain you’d have to cut open my head and my ears can already been seen. So those two can be witnessed – BUT I cannot prove I can see them either. My hand feels the surface but I cannot prove it has made a sound.

”In the knocking exercise, is there any difference between the words "brain" and "my brain"? Do they point to anything real? Something a baby could see?” - ‘My’ is conditioned ownership and attachment. ‘a’ is just a 1. The baby could see a brain, but not mine. The distinction has not been programmed yet.
“Does the brain add the 'I' or is 'I' separate? Is 'I' a part of interpretation?” and ”Check! Watch. How does a thought start? When does the word "I" appear? Does someone put it there?” – Haven’t done these yet. Will do.

”Make a decision. Any decision. A simple one. Soup or salad? Paper or plastic? Pen or pencil? Red or blue? Left foot or right foot? Observe carefully as it happens. How was the decision made? Is someone there deciding? Is there a moment where a king stamps his sceptre and declares a winner? Or is there simply recognition of which option has already won?” – This was very interesting. The decisions are quieter, simpler, quicker and shorter – wow! Sometimes I hardly hear them, they just float. The stamping king is ‘I’. Loud and attached to story and justification.

”But... can "you" really interfere? Does more attention to the fork actually control its direction?” – No it doesn’t! Its just that, concentration. It doesn’t make any difference, the fork would still move. I have had several experiences where thinking about it has messed up what I was doing instead of just doing. Like driving. I hesitate when I think. I miss opportunities when I think. Airplanes are a shear ride of terror for me, and all because I think – crash, burn and die. I read Elizabeth first in Gateless Gatecrashers book. She had chickens. Ilona (I think) kept telling Elizabeth to ‘watch the chickens’. I keep thinking, if that chicken had been on the plane instead of me, it would not have been afraid, because it has no ‘I’ to interfere.
“What makes Art? - This body does, this arm, this hand, this brain - there is just making. There is quiet, peace and lots of space. How is this different than any other moment in life?” – It shouldn’t be should it, but it is. Generally my life is ‘good’ – another label. But I am quick to fear, quick to defense, quick to anger with what is especially at work. Although I have to say since working with the writing in response to the books I have read in the last 2 years, this has radically reduced. I have been slowly moving towards you and this space. I have experienced and recognized the flow (usually realised after the fact). But I have lots more to realize. I can distract myself very well and easily and I have a tendency to ‘copy’ and ‘act out’ what I think the correct spiritual behaviour is. ‘I’ is very good at Outward instead of Inward, anything to distract. Fear is also an ‘I’ distraction I know.

Will get back to you with the ones I didnt answer later.

Love Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Devina
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Re: Guide

Postby Devina » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:44 am

I know I exist, ‘I am’.
Because there is a feeling?

Are feelings true?

The reality experiments are important, so we'll get back to them again. First I want to understand:

Do you think the "I" in the head is a person or a label? Does it have any power at all, like the power to attach itself? And who wants to be rid of "I" thoughts? Does anyone at all?

What does "conditioning" really mean?


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