Here to guide you

[Bezuda]

Reply this post and we can start right away.

Thank you :)

[Ants]

Hi, I'm Mike. I recently read through the quote app and Gateless Gatecrashers, but I'm not sure if I'm through or not. Would you help guide me?
Thanks.

[Bezuda]

Sure, it's a pleasure for me :)

So tell me Ants, What is 'I' or 'me' ?

Thank you

[Bezuda]

Please when answering my questions, be as honest with yourself as you can. Don't search for information anywhere ! Your answers must come from you and only you. Hug :D

[Ants]

Okay, thanks. :)
I'm not sure what 'me' is. If I look for anything that is me I just end up finding a thought or sensation. Then I ask what thinks and senses and I can't find anything, just thoughts and sensations coming up. I think me is the label for the thoughts and sensations that come up in this body.

[Bezuda]

That's right 'I' , 'me' or self are just labels for thoughts and body.

So is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

[Bezuda]

Please extend you answers as much as you can. This helps claify thing in the head.

[Ants]

There's often a sense of there being a 'me' when I'm not looking for it. Since getting into this stuff I catch myself in trains of thought that seem to assume the existence of a 'me' - things like making stories about myself, daydreaming about being the hero in various situations, etc. When I'm talking with people I've noticed myself acting as if I'm trying to prop up a 'me' too - for example sometimes going out of my way to mention things that paint me in a good light, or just getting self-conscious. These things seem to happen pretty often, probably as often as they did before getting into this. That makes me wonder if this is really internalized or not. When I notice that type of thing going on I'll stop and scoff at it though, so I don't know.

I know when I stop to specifically look for it, it seems pretty obvious that any sense of 'me' that comes up is just a thought or a feeling, and must have always been.

[Bezuda]

Great! You're on a good track.

That since of 'me' you spoke about, is always present it just can't go away. It's the dream of consciousness. But realize that is just an imagined character.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works..

[Ants]

The illusion of a separate self is the sense that you're a character separate from the world who's observing what's happening, thinking thoughts, making decisions, controlling actions, dividing the world up into what's mine and what isn't etc. It's an attaching of ownership to things that come up and the creation of a story tying it all together.

It probably starts around the time a baby is first socializing with their family, or maybe when they're learning the difference between what is and isn't the body.

It works by assuming the belief that there's a persistent 'me' who's set apart from everything else, and then searching for things like ideas, feelings, beliefs, events, objects, etc. to incorporate into 'me' to become 'me' or 'mine' (or to make not 'me' or not 'mine'). It's a belief that seems to be very insecure, so that it needs to constantly be propped-up and re-imagined by story-making, daydreaming, defending, protecting, showing off, and probably a bunch of other things. It seems to come with a lot of uncomfortable emotions like pride, loss, jealousy, depression, anxiousness, embarrassment, fear, and regret.

[Bezuda]

Omg, so well written !

Tell me now, how does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

Hug.

[Ants]

Hmm, I'm not sure it feels like a huge difference so far. I was expecting something like a revelation or a big aha moment but that didn't really happen. The main difference I'm noticing is sometimes catching myself having been caught up in self-narrative-type thoughts and smiling or scoffing at them. That, or sometimes noticing that there's just talking or looking or whatever without self-narrative thoughts that I might have expected to be there. I've noticed I've had a little bit of an easier time talking to people I would have been more timid around before. Similar anxious feelings come up but they seem easier to get over. It feels like stuff that would have been a big deal before might be easier to deal with -that it will be easier to go with the flow and not fixate on difficult things- but I can't really say for sure because nothing big has come up yet.

Thanks for going through this with me. :) It was really helpful to have to sort out my replies.

[Bezuda]

Its my pleasure, thank you.

The expectation we have about this revelation is allways different from the outcome, that's why you say nothing really happened. But in fact, everything happened. Realise that you see life is a totally different way, a new perspective. You now, see life from the eyes of god, and there's no turnin back now. That new way you perceive things is freedom :)

How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?

[Ants]

I'd tell them that their experience of self is an illusion that's been pulled over everyone's eyes, and that by examining it they can see through it. I'd tell them that putting a lot of stock in the illusion can lead to unnecessary stress and might contribute to making things more difficult than they need to be. I'd tell them to come here and talk to someone who has more experience to get a better understanding of it.

I actually talked to my friend about this for a bit last night. He seemed a little worried that getting into this might cause him some problems before it would get better, or that thinking about this stuff might make him have a big freak out. I wasn't sure what to say about that besides mentioning that I read about some people who had fears like that and they turned out alright, and that I was fine too. I told him about the android app and the forum but he seemed pretty wary. I was actually wondering today if I should have said something more.

[Bezuda]

That fear you speak about, is only ego trying to protect it self. Also an ilusion, there's no one to have an ego. Can you see that?

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? What exactly happened?