Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

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Freddi
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Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby Freddi » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:11 pm

Hi John
Thanks for agreeing to guide me ...
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:20 pm

Hi Fred,
Hi John
Thanks for agreeing to guide me ...
Fred
Thanks for creating the thread.

A few guidelines: look to post each day or post to say if a break is needed; and set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together.

Also, there is some nice intro info here, our disclaimer and a cool short video too.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

If you could confirm you have seen all the above - then we shall begin.

With best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby Freddi » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:54 pm

Hi John
I can indeed confirm that I had already seen the video, and that I will post each day. Let's begin!
Best
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:09 pm

Hi Fred,
Hi John
I can indeed confirm that I had already seen the video, and that I will post each day. Let's begin!
Best
Fred
Great.

Ok Fred, let's begin - could you share with me your expectations for this inquiry? And what has brought you here?

With kind thanks,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby Freddi » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:07 pm

Hi John
(Just trying out the quote function:)
could you share with me your expectations for this inquiry?
Not sure if there are any expectations for this. Maybe a deepening of knowledge of reality as it is, not as I thought it was. Maybe also looking for some pointers to consolidate/confirm the seeing of the illusory "me-thought".
what has brought you here?
A subtle shift has been taking place since the Spring, a transfer in perspective is the best way to describe it, like the progressive unpeeling of an onion. I could describe some events; the time taken in admiration in front of previously unremarkable or even unnoticed things, like the shape of a leaf, the colour of a sky, an increased awareness of everything going on, with a kind of inner surge of happiness accompanying all this. There was also the strange feeling one evening that my body, that had just got out of a beanbag and left a mug on a plate, was just another "thing" in the room, like the plate or the mug, albeit a moving one.
Anyway not sure how I landed here, it's just the continuation of a search into the reality behind these events, and the message delivered here "resonated" with something inside me.
Thanks!
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:34 pm

Hi Fred,
Hi John
(Just trying out the quote function:)
could you share with me your expectations for this inquiry?
Not sure if there are any expectations for this. Maybe a deepening of knowledge of reality as it is, not as I thought it was. Maybe also looking for some pointers to consolidate/confirm the seeing of the illusory "me-thought".
Ok. :)
what has brought you here?
A subtle shift has been taking place since the Spring, a transfer in perspective is the best way to describe it, like the progressive unpeeling of an onion. I could describe some events; the time taken in admiration in front of previously unremarkable or even unnoticed things, like the shape of a leaf, the colour of a sky, an increased awareness of everything going on, with a kind of inner surge of happiness accompanying all this. There was also the strange feeling one evening that my body, that had just got out of a beanbag and left a mug on a plate, was just another "thing" in the room, like the plate or the mug, albeit a moving one.
Anyway not sure how I landed here, it's just the continuation of a search into the reality behind these events, and the message delivered here "resonated" with something inside me.
Thanks!
Fred
Nice.

So when you read that a character called "Fred" inhabiting the body running the show is a complete fiction - always has been - I'd be interested, given your experiences, what response comes up?

With warm wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby Freddi » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:12 am

Hi John
So when you read that a character called "Fred" inhabiting the body running the show is a complete fiction - always has been - I'd be interested, given your experiences, what response comes up?
The character called "Fred" is/was a fiction. There is an entity here that responds to the name Fred, with distinct characteriscs, tastes etc. For years, Fred derived a sense of himself from these characteristics, each time adding a coat of varnish on the idea of "me", like reinforcing an empty shell.
When looking deeply into this, it becomes clear that character, predispositions etc. are down to conditioning, genetic or environmental predispositions.
He is not running the show, the show is running him, or even running itself, because Fred is part of the show.
At first it seems like one big bit of "unlearning" to do, but it is in fact so very simple.
Thanks!
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:40 am

Hi Fred,
Hi John
So when you read that a character called "Fred" inhabiting the body running the show is a complete fiction - always has been - I'd be interested, given your experiences, what response comes up?
The character called "Fred" is/was a fiction. There is an entity here that responds to the name Fred, with distinct characteriscs, tastes etc. For years, Fred derived a sense of himself from these characteristics, each time adding a coat of varnish on the idea of "me", like reinforcing an empty shell.
When looking deeply into this, it becomes clear that character, predispositions etc. are down to conditioning, genetic or environmental predispositions.
He is not running the show, the show is running him, or even running itself, because Fred is part of the show.
At first it seems like one big bit of "unlearning" to do, but it is in fact so very simple.
Thanks!
Fred
Wonderful, thank you Fred. Enjoyed the varnish metaphor. :)

So when Fred's gone, what is left?

What are you?


Please share as much as you wish about your direct experience of this.

With warm wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby Freddi » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:14 pm

Hi John,
So when Fred's gone, what is left? What are you?
When Fred has gone, there is just perceiving. The more I look back, as it were, to a source, the more I see nothing, emptiness, then I also see experiencing of everything, thoughts about everything, including the experiencing of this enquiry. I see labels. Good, bad, light, dark, joy, sadness, enjoyement of this exchange. All those are just happening, as well as Fred.
What am I? I am neither this nor that label. Like Fred, labels, thoughts, feelings, come and go. There is just being, and I won't call it an "I", because "I" might creep in again and claim it.

Warm regards,
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:31 pm

Hi Fred,
Hi John,
So when Fred's gone, what is left? What are you?
When Fred has gone, there is just perceiving. The more I look back, as it were, to a source, the more I see nothing, emptiness, then I also see experiencing of everything, thoughts about everything, including the experiencing of this enquiry. I see labels. Good, bad, light, dark, joy, sadness, enjoyement of this exchange. All those are just happening, as well as Fred.
What am I? I am neither this nor that label. Like Fred, labels, thoughts, feelings, come and go. There is just being, and I won't call it an "I", because "I" might creep in again and claim it.

Warm regards,
Fred
How does just being unfold in your everyday experiences with others and life?

Would you say you have seen through the illusion of the separate self fully and completely now?

Are there any sticking points you'd like to explore?

With warm wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby Freddi » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:14 pm

Hi John,
How does just being unfold in your everyday experiences with others and life?
Daily life here is quiet and almost solitary anyway, so being just happens, naturally and easily, like breathing.
Would you say you have seen through the illusion of the separate self fully and completely now?
The illusion of a separate self is seen through. Thoughts do still occur, like pride or anger, which can/could give rise to a comparison, and therefore a "separate-me-thought", but these thoughts tend not to stick around. They come and go in seconds.
Are there any sticking points you'd like to explore?
I don't think so, thanks.

Warm wishes
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:43 pm

Hi Fred,

Ok, that's cool. :) Would you have a look at these questions and please respond with whatever comes up...thank you! Write as much as you wish.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.


3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.


4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.


5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?


6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?


7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?


8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?


9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?


10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.


With kind thanks,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby Freddi » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:12 am

Hi John, here goes ...
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
No there is no "me" anywhere, nor was there ever. That was a fallacy, a tought construction that originated in my mind, like an assumption that if there are objects out there, "I" must be a subject.
Nothing is separate from anything else, there is just one movement of life, which the self, "I", "Fred" and all thoughts related to them are part of.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works?
The illusion works much like an assumption, the mind is receiving information from the senses, then draws conclusions, joins the dots. These conclusions create a separation between the apparent perceiver and the apparent world out there, that is how an "object" and a "subject" are born.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
At first it seems enormous, chaotic, with multiple consequences and pieces of a jigsaw to rebuild. Soon it transpires to be utterly simple. Everything stays the same, but with a change in perspective, and at all times there is an underlying feeling that "all is well", that feeling had always been there, but it was hidden. Everything goes on as usual, but all notions of responsibility, guilt etc. take a back seat. Actions seem to be more "in tune" with a bigger flow, they seem to 'fit'.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
I would not try and convince them, but should they be interested I would invite them to observe their thoughts, to look deeply into the evidence they have of their personal existence as an individual, a "doer". Do they take that evidence as fact? or belief? The mind is a great "dualiser", in order to apprehend a reality it does and cannot understand, it creates a subject and an object.
That is how a person is created. Out of thoughts. When we are young children, everything is perfect, our mother is always there and there is amazement at everything. The baby marvels as much at the shape of his or her toes as when hearing a bell. Then he is taught that he/she has a name, and that he/she can choose to walk into another room. Then a long list of conditioning takes place, at school, at work, where the notion of "me" is constantly reinforced by comparisons and protection from a seemingly inimical environment. The individual is then taught that he needs to control his environment, and that is where trouble starts.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
There was no last bit, no specific moment, but a series of "events" or realisations. So it could be said to be more subtle in this case. There was one evening about two months ago, when I became aware that my body had just got out of a chair, placed a cup on a plate, there was beauty, vibration in all of this, and my body seemed to have done this automatically, while being just another object in the room. That kind of thing never happened before. From then on I looked at all the actions I appear to "do" and saw that all are triggered by something else, the environment, a comment by my partner, the weather etc, instead of a conscious decision. Their rationalisation comes after. "Fred" takes ownership of it and claims it.
6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?
It's only a grammatical convention. Our language is ill-equipped to describe this! Every word is there to differentiate some thing from another thing, to give it boundaries, but reality is one big continuum. "I" differentiates a person from another, "you", just like an "ash tree" differentiates one tree from another "oak tree". In reality, all is one big energy in motion, life, a bit like the many pixels in a giant picture.
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
There is only experiencing of everything happening around. The more I look for an experiencer receiving the experience, the more I see nothing, emptiness.
8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?
Experiencing is bigger than the body, when I close my eyes, I do not feel the boundaries of my body, only a slight pressure on the backside (or what is perceived as the backside), some sounds, smells etc, but nothing that is confined to the body. The pressure on the backside and hearing a bird singing do not happen in different locations. They are both "happenings". The body is contained within the experiencing., like another object.
9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?
The expression "I awoke" feels inappropriate because it was suddenly realised that there was no "I", and the word "awakening" points to some kind of rite or passage. There is no passage, just a slight shift in perspective, a paper-thin transition.
10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.
Everything around is experienced more deeply, more slowly, more joyfully and for its own sake. A celebration is taking place at every moment, a celebration of life, of the simplest things. All apparent actions feel more "natural", in tune with the flow of something bigger. Events automatically fall into place. Other than that nothing happened :-)

Thanks!
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:01 pm

Thank you Fred - really appreciate the full responses. I shall ask the other guides to take a look and they may come back with further clarifications and questions.

WIth my kind thanks,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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Re: Thanks for your guidance, s-p-a-c-e

Postby Freddi » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:46 pm

OK John, thanks!
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts


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