Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

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Cosmicvibez
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Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby Cosmicvibez » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Hello, my name is Jonathan and I want to flatten this "I" once and for all!

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cosmiK
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:52 am

Hey Jonathan,

I will be your guide.

As long as you agree to post at least every day, agree to investigate and answer from your direct experience here & now, agree to be 110% honest, agree to answer all questions posed, and learn to use the quote function, we are good to go :)

How to use the quote function found here:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

1) What are your Expectations from this process, and from Liberation?

2) Why on earth would you want to flatten "I" and what is there to flatten?

Look forward to working with you,
Love.

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Cosmicvibez
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby Cosmicvibez » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:25 pm

Hello. Thank you for answering to my post. What name can I refer to you by? I agree to post every day and to be 110% honest.
1) What are your Expectations from this process, and from Liberation?
My expectations are to spot this process that seems to happen in my mind that I can't fully grasp, to stare it right in the face. I sense the illusion. But I can't quite...see it. I'm a pretty young guy, 22 years old. It wasn't until last year where I began to search for meaning in life, in myself. I never paid much attention to religion or spirituality, hell, I don't think I paid much attention to anything other than material things and situations. It was one morning, hungover, feeling like complete shit about myself that I felt a shift happen in my brain. And it was from reading this article about the law of attraction and how everything is broken down to vibrations and energy that ignited a passion to learn and study more about this stuff. Pretty soon I started confusing myself with all the different concepts and things that I was reading and I sorta built a sense of self off of it, almost. I didn't know what was real or not, I started getting paranoid about conspiracy theories, experimenting with psychedelics, quitting my job because I felt like life wasn't all about work, I ended up making poor decisions. I couldn't shake my bad habits but I had gained some new good habits and ways of thinking from all the reading and studying I had been doing. So there was a major conflict inside, it felt like. And something just wouldn't let go of the searching, wondering, what am I? And it still persists till this day. I feel like I can't relax.

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Cosmicvibez
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby Cosmicvibez » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:53 am

Ready when you are, man! :)

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Cosmicvibez
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby Cosmicvibez » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:54 am

I don't know if my introduction posted or not... :/

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cosmiK
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:58 am

it did :) Sorry, am just finishing up some work. Will respond shortly.

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cosmiK
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:00 am

My expectations are to spot this process that seems to happen in my mind that I can't fully grasp, to stare it right in the face. I sense the illusion. But I can't quite...see it. I'm a pretty young guy, 22 years old. It wasn't until last year where I began to search for meaning in life, in myself. I never paid much attention to religion or spirituality, hell, I don't think I paid much attention to anything other than material things and situations. It was one morning, hungover, feeling like complete shit about myself that I felt a shift happen in my brain. And it was from reading this article about the law of attraction and how everything is broken down to vibrations and energy that ignited a passion to learn and study more about this stuff. Pretty soon I started confusing myself with all the different concepts and things that I was reading and I sorta built a sense of self off of it, almost. I didn't know what was real or not, I started getting paranoid about conspiracy theories, experimenting with psychedelics, quitting my job because I felt like life wasn't all about work, I ended up making poor decisions. I couldn't shake my bad habits but I had gained some new good habits and ways of thinking from all the reading and studying I had been doing. So there was a major conflict inside, it felt like. And something just wouldn't let go of the searching, wondering, what am I? And it still persists till this day. I feel like I can't relax.
Jonathan,

thanks for taking the time to share.

This movement, L.U., is dedicated to seeing through the illusion of a separate self. The question "What Am I?" supposes that you are indeed something, whereas this investigation tests out that assumption of a separate agent/entity/doer/self/soul/tooth-fairy, and destroys that core assumption, freeing one from the binding of self-hood.

This is Awakening from the separate self, or called the realization of Anatta in Buddhism.

The searching that you are feeling is 'seeking'. The purpose of this seeking impulse is to Awaken from illusion, from separation. Burn in that impulse. Let it dissolve you, and dissolve in to it.

So, again, put aside any other teachings, and focus on this investigation. Drop any expectations about this Awakening, as they are all just attachments to an imagined future/self. Focus all energy on falsifying that there is a separate You that is searching for some separate answer. That is your work.

So...

is there a separate self anywhere, right here, right now?

point it out to me and describe it, with reference to your direct present moment experience. no need for speculation and analysis please. just reference to here & now experience.

Let's do this shall we!

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Cosmicvibez
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby Cosmicvibez » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:44 pm

Okay! Sounds great. I will refrain from any further teachings. Let's get this show on the road.
is there a separate self anywhere, right here, right now?
When I quiet my mind and look around the room without labeling anything, I don't sense a self, really. It's just pure non-judging observation. Maybe a thought here and there, but long gaps in between. But if I get up and walk around the house, immediately a sense of self comes in but I sense this judging witness as well. I say 'judging' witness because I noticed yesterday while I was trying to observe observe observe as much as I can while at work, I noticed my body doing its work, and I felt like a witness doing the observation and having thoughts about the experience. But then THOSE thoughts were judged and more thoughts emerged. Now, let's say I'm not doing any observing, just dealing with people or just hanging with friends, this...sensed entity is silently watching EVERYTHING "I" say, everything "I" think and judging, creating a story. I notice it heavily when I talk to people. I often stutter and that created an insecurity. So, when I talk to people this thing happens where it feels like I'm "watching" myself talk and pick every word carefully to make sure I don't stutter and it makes me lose my train of thought and I end up sound stupid and forgetting the words I'm trying to use...it's torture.

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cosmiK
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:46 pm

Hey Jonathan,
When I quiet my mind and look around the room without labeling anything, I don't sense a self, really. It's just pure non-judging observation. Maybe a thought here and there, but long gaps in between.
Who or what quietens the mind?

Your mind? Where is the claimant?

Is there a 'mind'? or just a stream of thoughts and other sensations (perhaps around the head)?
I say 'judging' witness because I noticed yesterday while I was trying to observe observe observe as much as I can while at work, I noticed my body doing its work, and I felt like a witness doing the observation and having thoughts about the experience. But then THOSE thoughts were judged and more thoughts emerged.
Right... so body is moving, stuff is happening... there are sensations, a sense of being, movement, etc etc, and yes, thoughts arise. thoughts label experience. that is one of the major function of thoughts. the 'mind' so to speak, is a labeling mechanism. thoughts even label other thoughts. do not try to stop or fight against thoughts... that is ridiculous. simple notice. oh ... sensation ... oh ... thought ... oh thought ... oh ... fart ... oh ... hahaha... thought.

thoughts label several things.
it takes Experiencing, here & now, and labels it "me", "others", "body", "objects", "world"
streams of thoughts create STORIES that use several labels, but really these separate objects that label creates are really only ever there in thought. dropping thought there is just a simplicity. even when a thought labels, there is STILL that simplicity, that experiencing, and that thought is part of that simplicity. Don't make an enemy out of thoughts or anything for that matter. Focus on seeing how there is no You!
sensed entity is silently watching EVERYTHING "I" say, everything "I" think and judging, creating a story. I notice it heavily when I talk to people. I often stutter and that created an insecurity. So, when I talk to people this thing happens where it feels like I'm "watching" myself talk and pick every word carefully to make sure I don't stutter and it makes me lose my train of thought and I end up sound stupid and forgetting the words I'm trying to use...it's torture.
What happens is, people often create strategies to detach or distance themselves from experience, such as uncomfortable situations, people, emotions, reactions, sensations, and that distancing can create a sense of a separate witness... then thoughts arise! naturally... as they always do... they we label this new experience a 'judging witness'. Is there a reason you are disassociating yourself from experience? give up Jonathan... Surrender... you cannot win this battle, because there is no YOU to win!!! there are just those thoughts, sensations, perhaps an unmistakble sense of aliveness... yet they arise to noone or no-thing... they come from noone or no-thing. BUT.. don't just listen to some random nutter you just met on the internet... test this out for yourself.

Breathe deeply from your belly and feel whatever is felt, and do whatever feels right. Relax, here & now. Don't try to relax, don't try to try to try to try... relax. Always return to that breathing. The simplest portal to just being, here, now ... like there is EVER anywhere else :)

In all that happens, in all that you have described... where is the separate self? Where is the You?

Right here, Right now, Is there a You? Self?

Let's start really honing in our investigation. I have high expectations for you.

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Cosmicvibez
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby Cosmicvibez » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:04 pm

What happens is, people often create strategies to detach or distance themselves from experience, such as uncomfortable situations, people, emotions, reactions, sensations, and that distancing can create a sense of a separate witness... then thoughts arise! naturally... as they always do... they we label this new experience a 'judging witness'. Is there a reason you are disassociating yourself from experience? give up Jonathan... Surrender... you cannot win this battle, because there is no YOU to win!!!
I DEEPLY resonated with this portion. You're absolutely right. For as long as I can remember I've sensed "my""self" disassociate from emotions, embarrasing situations and whatnot...

When I closed my eyes and focused just now, and after a couple thoughts had passed by, a story formed. In order to not confuse myself I will refer to myself in the third person. So, Jonathan believes that his thoughts are getting in the way of fully experiencing and enjoying life. In the most simplest of situations, his mind conjures up unwanted and disturbing images and his reaction to those thoughts are of frustration and sadness. He's noticed that when he sees someone or something, a raw and reflexive thought appears or maybe a feeling and then the detached 'judging witness' adds the unwanted images or thoughts. He notices this happening EVERY DAY. And he also notices that the same external stimuli be it visual, or auditory produces the SAME thoughts, like a pattern. He feels like it's a burden to live this way. He believes that no-self will somehow put his thought streams in check, so that this won't happen anymore instead of just being okay with it and letting it happen.
Who or what quietens the mind?

Your mind? Where is the claimant?

Is there a 'mind'? or just a stream of thoughts and other sensations (perhaps around the head)?
When Jonathan is playing guitar, he tries to focus on the music, how it sounds, what notes he's playing. But random images and thoughts come in. He'll pretend to be listening to the music out of someone else's ears (I dunno why, it just happens), He'll have subtle conversations playing randomly that have nothing to do with NOW. But what he's noticed is that this 'witness' is not ALWAYS there. It always comes AFTER the thoughts, as if it's always there. He gets the impression that the 'witness' is always present is an illusion...

Please let me know if referring to myself like this confuses the process of seeing.

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cosmiK
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:27 pm

Hey Jonathan,

In response to your first 2 paragraphs on top:

I can relate this experience being uncomfortable, but it seems like your hoping against hope that some "no-self" experience will suddenly bring you relief. While there is some truth to this, in the sense that the relationship with thoughts and experience does change, it probably will not give you the instant relief you are seeking. it seems that there is a habitual and repeated pattern of reacting that is playing itself over and over again, and will take time to subside, even after initial seeing. Seeing in to no-self breaks the binding of central assumption, that of the "you" or "me" or "Jonathan" that is going through all of this. This does help significantly. All I can do is remind you again, to drop any expectations and bring your investigation in to your Experience, here & now. If expectations arise, drop them, and if they arise again, drop them again. Put all your energy in to this.
When Jonathan is playing guitar, he tries to focus on the music, how it sounds, what notes he's playing. But random images and thoughts come in. He'll pretend to be listening to the music out of someone else's ears (I dunno why, it just happens), He'll have subtle conversations playing randomly that have nothing to do with NOW. But what he's noticed is that this 'witness' is not ALWAYS there. It always comes AFTER the thoughts, as if it's always there. He gets the impression that the 'witness' is always present is an illusion...

Please let me know if referring to myself like this confuses the process of seeing.
Suddenly adopting a 3rd person perspective many not help, especially if you are identifying with it. Again... what is important is looking in to your present moment.

Let's adopt a method of breaking down experience to help our investigation. This way we can both be on the same page. I mean... we can agree that grass is green, honey is sweet, and soon that there is No You!

In Experience, there is just this Experience.
1) thoughts
2) sensations x5 (seeing, hearing, smelling, feeling [tactile+kinesthetic], tasting)
3) presence/being (an unmistakable sense of aliveness)


We can break down Exp. in this way.

Test this out in your Experience, and confirm for me, that these are also the basic building blocks of all Experience.
Then we can begin serious direct investigation.

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Cosmicvibez
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby Cosmicvibez » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:39 pm

I've tested and confirmed that these are all the ingredients for experience. :)

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cosmiK
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:46 pm

Okay...

Here are some simple exercises. Don't rush them. Take your time, and deeply and directly investigate. Use our 3 aspects to break down any assumptions about anything. Answer each question with the quote function. No analysis... just simple reporting.

Close eyes. Listen.
- Is there a hear-er of sounds? or just sounds?

Close eyes. Feel.
- Is there a feel-er or just feelings (tactile+kinesthetic)?

Stand up. Look down a foot away from your feet.
- Is there a looker? or just what is seen?

- Is there a "body" and "floor" and "other objects seen"... or JUST what is seen?

Close eyes. Breathe in..... Breathe out.... repeat a few times....
- Are YOU breathing? or is breathing happening?
- if there is a YOU breathing... find it, look at it, and report what you find here.

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Cosmicvibez
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby Cosmicvibez » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:07 am

Close eyes. Listen.
- Is there a hear-er of sounds? or just sounds?
There are just sounds. I can't turn my hearing off or on, I can't control what particular thing I listen to. I hear my family arguing outside my bedroom. The sounds are loud and rushed and angry. The only way that I can "stop" hearing those sounds is if I produce a louder sound that cancels them out. For example blasting music.
Close eyes. Feel.
- Is there a feel-er or just feelings (tactile+kinesthetic)?
When doing this exercise, I notice that even though my eyes are close, there is still seeing happening. There's just not a lot of light reaching my eye balls. And I notice when I'm paying attention to a certain sensation, let's say my feet, I feel my eyes move downward towards the sensation, and a VERY subtle image of the body part appears. Also, what feels like...attention is following the sensations.
Stand up. Look down a foot away from your feet.
- Is there a looker? or just what is seen?
Like I said in the first exercise, looking is happening without effort. Since I have bad eyesight and I haven't been able to afford glasses for a while, I kinda have to squint, so maybe the act of squinting makes it seem like 'I'M" looking.
Close eyes. Breathe in..... Breathe out.... repeat a few times....
- Are YOU breathing? or is breathing happening?
No, it's all happening by itself. All the senses happen by themselves...but the attention changes between them.

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cosmiK
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Re: Requesting the assistant of a guide, please. :)

Postby cosmiK » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:37 am

Alright...


move hands slowly up and down...
- are YOU moving it? OR are hands just moving?

so... there is this Experience... this Appearance... and we can say skilfully divide it in to sensations, thoughts, a sense of being... however, there is this assumption that there is a separate someone... a separate self... a doer/agent/chooser/I/me...

CHECK.

Is there an experience-er Experiencing?

OR

Is there JUST that Experience, and THOUGHTS about it that say "I am experiencing". As such. There is ONLY Experiencing. Is it so?

~~~

LOOK Deeply Jonathan ... could it be possible there is no separate experience... and there is just the experience?

Is it possible that...

In thinking, ONLY the thought?
In seeing, ONLY the seen?
In hearing, ONLY the heard?
In feeling, ONLY the felt?
In tasting, ONLY the tasted?
In smelling, ONLY the fart?
In Experience, ONLY the Experience?


is ANY Experience personal? Is so... where is that claimant?

Investigate this thoroughly... deeply... write me back when you've had a chance to fully investigate this in Experience. Refer to your direct experience when responding, and not to any stories/analysis.

Let's do this!


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