A shift has happened, but I need help losing "me"

[Lisa]

A few days ago, I opened up to the possibility that there is no "me" (after some time spent actively resisting that possibility). And just like that I experienced a shift. It was very subtle, but I suddenly I saw the story of "Lisa" as just that - a story. With that, investment in any outcome of the Lisa story and judgment of whether a particular experience was good or bad fell away. I was just being. Since then, life has been a little crazy. A lot has been arising: doubt, fear, questions. Sometimes I'm in the "Lisa" story. Sometimes I'm watching the "Lisa" story. I know I'm not fully "me"-less. I still have work to do, and I and I am open and ready to dive in head first. I would be deeply appreciative of a guide to help me fully lose "me". :)

Thanks so much.

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

A few days ago, I opened up to the possibility that there is no "me" (after some time spent actively resisting that possibility). And just like that I experienced a shift. It was very subtle, but I suddenly I saw the story of "Lisa" as just that - a story. With that, investment in any outcome of the Lisa story and judgment of whether a particular experience was good or bad fell away. I was just being. Since then, life has been a little crazy. A lot has been arising: doubt, fear, questions. Sometimes I'm in the "Lisa" story. Sometimes I'm watching the "Lisa" story. I know I'm not fully "me"-less. I still have work to do, and I and I am open and ready to dive in head first. I would be deeply appreciative of a guide to help me fully lose "me". :)

Thanks so much.

~Lisa

This is John from the UK. Happy to be your guide if you wish.

A few guidelines: look to post each day or post to say if a break is needed; and set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together.

Also, there is some nice intro info here, our disclaimer and a cool short video too.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we'll shall begin.

With best wishes,
John

[Lisa]

Hi John,

Thank you. I gratefully accept your guidance.

I agree to post each day, or let you know if a break is needed. I really didn't have any other spiritual practices, so that one is easy.

I have read the disclaimer, and I have watched several of the videos.

I am ready. Let's do this thing! :)

~Lisa

[Lisa]

Hi, again, John.

I am reading a book called "Solitude, Seeking Wisdom in Extremes" by Robert Kull. It's a true story of a man's seeking for spiritual answers/enlightenment through a year alone in the Patagonia Wilderness. I just realized that since this book is about a man's spiritual journey, the reading of it might be considered a "spiritual practice". So, I thought I better check. Should I stop reading this book? Thanks, again!

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

A few days ago, I opened up to the possibility that there is no "me" (after some time spent actively resisting that possibility). And just like that I experienced a shift. It was very subtle, but I suddenly I saw the story of "Lisa" as just that - a story. With that, investment in any outcome of the Lisa story and judgment of whether a particular experience was good or bad fell away. I was just being. Since then, life has been a little crazy. A lot has been arising: doubt, fear, questions. Sometimes I'm in the "Lisa" story. Sometimes I'm watching the "Lisa" story. I know I'm not fully "me"-less. I still have work to do, and I and I am open and ready to dive in head first. I would be deeply appreciative of a guide to help me fully lose "me". :)

...and thank you for sharing the experience. You are among friends. :)

There is a transition, a period of adjustment, after seeing - so this is quite natural. It is a change of game, after all.

Please share of the doubt, the fear, the questions - write as much as you wish. It's good to express, to fully respect and accept what's happening.

With warm wishes,
John

p.s. if the book is bringing you comfort, please do continue.

[Lisa]

Thanks, John. I am so ready to dig in and move through this!

...and thank you for sharing the experience. You are among friends. :)

Thank you. :) I do feel safe here.

Please share of the doubt, the fear, the questions - write as much as you wish. It's good to express, to fully respect and accept what's happening.

Ok. Here we go! I have addressed the doubts, fears, and questions separately, because the three of them do have distinct qualities.

Doubts:

• • Is this really it? Did I really experience a taste of awareness? Was it really so easy? (I really didn't "do" anything to make it happen except walk into my fear, and open up to the possibility of no "me".)

I feel like I should give a little back story, here. I have not done much seeking in my recent life. About 13 years ago, I was seeking "something". I knew there was something more. I read a book by Wayne Dyer, and one by Deepak Chopra. I read a little by Pema Chodron, and Thich Nhat Hanh. I was participating regularly in a Buddhist chat room on AOL (he he...perhaps you are not old enough to remember AOL...suffice it to say that it was, essentially, the Internet, back then. Well, they were an Internet Service Provider, one of the only ones, as I recall.) I guess, as I look back on it, I was seeking for most of my life, experimenting with different religions. My mom wasn't religious, but I put myself through Catholic Confirmation, I toyed with the idea of being a nun, for a while I practiced Wicca. I was definitely looking for something that made sense, that spoke to me.

Then, I met my husband. I think I stopped seeking, then, because I couldn't reconcile the idea of non-attachment with being in a relationship. Fear of losing him set in. And I began actively resisting seeking. Despite the fact that he was continuing to seek, off and on, I steadfastly refused to engage. I didn't recognize that at the time. But I do now.

Recently, I have been getting the urge, again, to find that "something more". Though, still, I wasn't actively seeking. I also wasn't actively resisting. I was beginning to open - until my husband found Liberation Unleashed. When he started talking to me about that idea that there is no "self", well, there came the fear again...and the resisting. It didn't last for long, though. The seed was planted, and the opening had begun. The resisting to this only lasted a couple months.

For the past few years, in my life, I have also been given opportunities to walk into fear -and I have taken those opportunities. I have noticed that, every single time I walk into fear, I experience a release. Every time I face fear, I open.

Anyway, those two experiences came together earlier this week, and I decided to walk into the fear that there is no "me", and, well, you know the rest of the story from there. (Isn't it interesting how, if you watch life, you can see how the pieces fall into place, sometimes?).

Sorry, for the long back story, but I thought it was important to understand the next doubt. Also, I thought it might be helpful for you to know.

So the next doubt, which is related to the first:

• • How can this be "it", when I haven't done the groundwork? Am I really deserving? (Of course, I know when I am outside of "Lisa", that, of course, I am deserving...because the "I" that I think I am, isn't me. Nonetheless...that doubt arises. I should say that the doubts only arise when I am not in awareness...when I am engaging in the "Lisa" story. When I am outside of it, they may arise, but they have nothing to stick to.)

Fears: Oh boy, these are my demons. Unlike the doubts, when the fears arise strongly enough, they are enough to kick me out of awareness, and back into the "Lisa" story. These fears are nothing like I have experienced previously. They are felt MUCH more strongly than any other fears I have experienced in my life. They consume me. Previously, my fears have been mostly thoughts/worries. Sometimes my fears were visceral....like when standing on the edge of a cliff, I have felt the fear in the pit of my stomach.

These fears are both thoughts and sensations. I feel them, not in the pit of my stomach, but where my heart chakra is. It is strong, very strong. They also make me physically nauseous.

In addition, unlike previous fears, which were just thoughts in my head, words. I have experienced these fears, when they really have had a hold of me, as visions - as actual apparitions. When I am out of the "Lisa" story, I sometimes think of as a play. "Lisa" is just a character in the play. However, when I am deeply consumed by these fears, I have seen them as characters in the story, except, I'm in the story with them, and I can't get out! It's crazy. Never have I experienced fears like that.

Sometimes, the fears are so powerful, and they elicit such confusion, that I don't know what they are. They are just fear, big, all-encompassing, fear. Other times, though, I have tried to go into them - to find out what they are. Here is what I have come up with.

• • Loss of control - Oh, man, this is a biggie. Control has been a big factor in my life. I'm a bit of a control freak. I like to think that I have some control over my life. It's HUGE to face that I don't.
  
  • Loss of comfort, security, familiarity, stability - These are kind of rolled into one. But they are all about all that I have "known" falling away. My sense of safety is taken away.
  
  • Losing the things I currently enjoy doing - I'm afraid that being in awareness will mean that I won't be able to do the things that I enjoy, because some of those things can feed my ego: knitting because I get compliments about my work, and dancing because it makes me the center of attention. I question whether I should I be engaging in activities that feed the ego. And yet, I really enjoy doing them. I guess I'm afraid of a life where I can't do the things that I love.
  
  • Losing this body I worked so hard for - I'm ashamed to admit this one, because it is so superficial. A few years ago, I worked hard to lose weight, and my body looks better than it ever has. In order to maintain it, though, I have to log my foods and my exercise, really monitor calories in vs. calories out (did I mention I was a control freak? ;) ). There is a lot of ego attached to this body, and yet, I don't want to lose it. I don't want to let it revert back to the way it was. However, keeping it this way feeds my ego, which I also don't think is a good plan. I should also mention that, when I lost the weight, I was still in a healthy BMI range. So this isn't a health thing. It's purely vanity, well, that, and not wanting to buy a new wardrobe again.
  
  • Losing my relationship - This one is HUGE! The apparitions arose when I was consumed by this fear. I love my husband deeply, and I don't want to lose him. This is the strongest, most visceral, fear of them all. After all, this is the one that caused me to stop seeking so many years ago.
  
  • Losing my friends - I'm afraid that being in awareness will not allow me to connect with my friends. A lot of what happens in social activities is ego based: "I did this great thing. Oh, wow, isn't that fantastic? Good for you!!! ", etc. I don't need my ego fed, right now, and I don't know if I want to participate in any ego-feeding. So, what's left in most social activities? If I'm not feeding ego, will my friends think I'm rude? Unkind?
  
  • Will I be able to get back to a state of awareness, where I am not in the "lisa" story? - this one has been coming up a lot lately, because it seems like I have been stuck in the "Lisa" story more than I have been able to be out of it. So, I fear that I won't be able to get back.

Interesting that all my fears seem to be centered around loss. Hmmm...

Questions: The questions are more around how things work without a "me". They aren't emotionally-charged like the fears.

• If there is no "me", how does desire fit into the picture? I mean, what is doing the wanting?
• If "I" am not in control, why does it appear that I can cause thoughts to arise?
• If "I" am not in control, how is it that I can set goals and put forth the effort to reach them?

I guess that's it for now. Sorry about the book, here. I guess there's a lot there. :)

With gratitude,

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

Thank you so much for sharing the detail. Going to make a few short comments on what you've shared:

Doubts:

• • Is this really it? Did I really experience a taste of awareness? Was it really so easy? (I really didn't "do" anything to make it happen except walk into my fear, and open up to the possibility of no "me".)

My gut feeling is yes. You did and do.

Then, I met my husband. I think I stopped seeking, then, because I couldn't reconcile the idea of non-attachment with being in a relationship. Fear of losing him set in. And I began actively resisting seeking. Despite the fact that he was continuing to seek, off and on, I steadfastly refused to engage. I didn't recognize that at the time. But I do now.

Good that it's recognised.

For the past few years, in my life, I have also been given opportunities to walk into fear -and I have taken those opportunities. I have noticed that, every single time I walk into fear, I experience a release. Every time I face fear, I open.

Excellent! Fear is just the guardian of the unknown.

Anyway, those two experiences came together earlier this week, and I decided to walk into the fear that there is no "me", and, well, you know the rest of the story from there. (Isn't it interesting how, if you watch life, you can see how the pieces fall into place, sometimes?).

Yep! :)

• • How can this be "it", when I haven't done the groundwork? Am I really deserving? (Of course, I know when I am outside of "Lisa", that, of course, I am deserving...because the "I" that I think I am, isn't me. Nonetheless...that doubt arises. I should say that the doubts only arise when I am not in awareness...when I am engaging in the "Lisa" story. When I am outside of it, they may arise, but they have nothing to stick to.)

Just thoughts coming and going. Good to see and respect but not to believe.

Fears: Oh boy, these are my demons. Unlike the doubts, when the fears arise strongly enough, they are enough to kick me out of awareness, and back into the "Lisa" story. These fears are nothing like I have experienced previously. They are felt MUCH more strongly than any other fears I have experienced in my life. They consume me. Previously, my fears have been mostly thoughts/worries. Sometimes my fears were visceral....like when standing on the edge of a cliff, I have felt the fear in the pit of my stomach.

These fears are both thoughts and sensations. I feel them, not in the pit of my stomach, but where my heart chakra is. It is strong, very strong. They also make me physically nauseous.

Yes, I know it well. :) It's fine Lisa. You're handling fear very well. If it comes likes this: either walk slowly and take comfortable, regular breaths, or sit and breath regularly. Allow the fear to wash through. It will.

In addition, unlike previous fears, which were just thoughts in my head, words. I have experienced these fears, when they really have had a hold of me, as visions - as actual apparitions. When I am out of the "Lisa" story, I sometimes think of as a play. "Lisa" is just a character in the play. However, when I am deeply consumed by these fears, I have seen them as characters in the story, except, I'm in the story with them, and I can't get out! It's crazy. Never have I experienced fears like that.

Let it play it's tricks and breath and act as if it's nothing special.

Sometimes, the fears are so powerful, and they elicit such confusion, that I don't know what they are. They are just fear, big, all-encompassing, fear. Other times, though, I have tried to go into them - to find out what they are. Here is what I have come up with.

See above.

• • Loss of control - Oh, man, this is a biggie. Control has been a big factor in my life. I'm a bit of a control freak. I like to think that I have some control over my life. It's HUGE to face that I don't.

It's ok Lisa, you won't lose any control. Because you're not there. "Lisa" doesn't exist, so to talk about "Lisa" losing control is a moot pint. Life is all there is. Lisa is life. There is no "Lisa" in the building.

• Loss of comfort, security, familiarity, stability - These are kind of rolled into one. But they are all about all that I have "known" falling away. My sense of safety is taken away.

From the experience here, there is a period of adjustment (some less so, some more so). You see, it's all a little bit moot :) because "Lisa" is the one who thinks she'll miss the comfort, security etc. And she ain't there.

• Losing the things I currently enjoy doing - I'm afraid that being in awareness will mean that I won't be able to do the things that I enjoy, because some of those things can feed my ego: knitting because I get compliments about my work, and dancing because it makes me the center of attention. I question whether I should I be engaging in activities that feed the ego. And yet, I really enjoy doing them. I guess I'm afraid of a life where I can't do the things that I love.

If you love knitting...you'll probably continue to love knitting. Life loves. Especially knitting. ;)

• Losing this body I worked so hard for - I'm ashamed to admit this one, because it is so superficial. A few years ago, I worked hard to lose weight, and my body looks better than it ever has. In order to maintain it, though, I have to log my foods and my exercise, really monitor calories in vs. calories out (did I mention I was a control freak? ;) ). There is a lot of ego attached to this body, and yet, I don't want to lose it. I don't want to let it revert back to the way it was. However, keeping it this way feeds my ego, which I also don't think is a good plan. I should also mention that, when I lost the weight, I was still in a healthy BMI range. So this isn't a health thing. It's purely vanity, well, that, and not wanting to buy a new wardrobe again.

This is an interesting one, because you are not your body. :) Can only share my experience - my food, exercise, weight has not altered a jot. Some folk do, some don't.

There's no guarantee on life being this or that.

• Losing my relationship - This one is HUGE! The apparitions arose when I was consumed by this fear. I love my husband deeply, and I don't want to lose him. This is the strongest, most visceral, fear of them all. After all, this is the one that caused me to stop seeking so many years ago.

Again, life takes care of these things. I'm married - it's had little effect. :) Other than, "Why do you spend so much time on that forum!" LOL :)

• Losing my friends - I'm afraid that being in awareness will not allow me to connect with my friends. A lot of what happens in social activities is ego based: "I did this great thing. Oh, wow, isn't that fantastic? Good for you!!! ", etc. I don't need my ego fed, right now, and I don't know if I want to participate in any ego-feeding. So, what's left in most social activities? If I'm not feeding ego, will my friends think I'm rude? Unkind?

See answers above. I've found that the relationships with friends are more heartfelt.

• Will I be able to get back to a state of awareness, where I am not in the "lisa" story? - this one has been coming up a lot lately, because it seems like I have been stuck in the "Lisa" story more than I have been able to be out of it. So, I fear that I won't be able to get back.[/list]

Once the "Lisa" story is seen, it can't be unseen.

Questions: The questions are more around how things work without a "me". They aren't emotionally-charged like the fears.

• If there is no "me", how does desire fit into the picture? I mean, what is doing the wanting?
• If "I" am not in control, why does it appear that I can cause thoughts to arise?
• If "I" am not in control, how is it that I can set goals and put forth the effort to reach them?

Desires show up. Thoughts show up. The approach of goals & effort is interesting. My sense is that "John" had goals to meet "John's" apparent needs, but since "John" left the building, more seems to happen with no effort.

I guess that's it for now. Sorry about the book, here. I guess there's a lot there. :)

With gratitude,

~Lisa

It's a pleasure.

So, there is no "Lisa" - never was, never will be.

What shows up when that is read?

With best wishes,
John

[Lisa]

First, is it ok if I respond to some of your responses? Some of them really hit home with me.

My gut feeling is yes. You did and do.

That is my gut feeling as well. When I'm not believing all the thoughts that pass by.

Fear is just the guardian of the unknown.

I love this!!! This is so good to remember for those times when the fear hits. Thank you. :)

If it comes likes this: either walk slowly and take comfortable, regular breaths, or sit and breath regularly. Allow the fear to wash through. It will.

Thank you. I will try this. I like the idea of letting it wash through. Like waves on the beach...or the tide coming in...so it will go back out. :)

Life is all there is. Lisa is life. There is no "Lisa" in the building.

These three statements are so powerful for me. I think they will be simple reminders when I get stuck in the "Lisa" story - like a mantra that I can repeat until it hits home.

And now to the meat of the work....

So, there is no "Lisa" - never was, never will be.

What shows up when that is read?

You know, it's funny. Once upon a time, those words instilled such fear. Now, it's just so incredibly simple and obvious. "Bird" does not believe it is "bird". That's just a label we gave it. It's just being "bird" - catching worms, building nests, soaring through the air. Similarly, "Lisa" is just a label my parents gave me. Why should I be any different than "bird"? The only thing that makes me different is that I have thoughts. Thoughts which I can fall under the illusion of believing are true. And so...we get trapped into believing we are our labels.

And, yet....

There must be some remnant in there that believes that "Lisa" still exists, or I wouldn't be having the fears, since it's clear that some of my fears can't arise without the belief that there is a "Lisa". Hmmm...perhaps they can still arise, but if I fully believed there was no "Lisa", I wouldn't believe them. Having said that, I spent yesterday in full awareness. Today I am in awareness (so far :) ). So, I haven't had any fear episodes for a while. Still, I guess the other thing that comes up is doubt that I have fully integrated the knowing that there is no "Lisa".

With heartfelt thanks,

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

Thank you for your response.

So, there is no "Lisa" - never was, never will be.

What shows up when that is read?

You know, it's funny. Once upon a time, those words instilled such fear. Now, it's just so incredibly simple and obvious. "Bird" does not believe it is "bird". That's just a label we gave it. It's just being "bird" - catching worms, building nests, soaring through the air. Similarly, "Lisa" is just a label my parents gave me. Why should I be any different than "bird"? The only thing that makes me different is that I have thoughts. Thoughts which I can fall under the illusion of believing are true. And so...we get trapped into believing we are our labels.

:)

And, yet....

There must be some remnant in there that believes that "Lisa" still exists, or I wouldn't be having the fears, since it's clear that some of my fears can't arise without the belief that there is a "Lisa". Hmmm...perhaps they can still arise, but if I fully believed there was no "Lisa", I wouldn't believe them. Having said that, I spent yesterday in full awareness. Today I am in awareness (so far :) ). So, I haven't had any fear episodes for a while. Still, I guess the other thing that comes up is doubt that I have fully integrated the knowing that there is no "Lisa".

Let's explore...

What is a belief?

Who is there to believe?

How do you know when to believe?

Best wishes,
John

[Lisa]

When I first saw these questions, I thought the answering of them would be hard. I was ready for some deep thinking and questioning. Not so, it seems. It just came to me.

What is a belief?

I examined beliefs and they all appear to be about thoughts or concepts. In fact, belief is just another thought. When it is direct experience, there is nothing to believe. It just IS. I actually laughed when I discovered this. What a big "aha"!

Who is there to believe?

No one. :)

How do you know when to believe?

Never! Ha, ha! Belief is a thought. I don't need to believe. What is, IS.

That is what comes now.

With gratefulness,

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

When I first saw these questions, I thought the answering of them would be hard. I was ready for some deep thinking and questioning. Not so, it seems. It just came to me.

What is a belief?

I examined beliefs and they all appear to be about thoughts or concepts. In fact, belief is just another thought. When it is direct experience, there is nothing to believe. It just IS. I actually laughed when I discovered this. What a big "aha"!

Who is there to believe?

No one. :)

How do you know when to believe?

Never! Ha, ha! Belief is a thought. I don't need to believe. What is, IS.

That is what comes now.

With gratefulness,

~Lisa

Excellent! :)

So, when "Lisa" is gone, what's left?

Best wishes,
John

[Lisa]

Ha ha! It is amazing to see the answers to these questions unfold. There is no difficulty. It seems so easy and simple. There is an inkling of doubt that passes through. "Is it REALLY this easy?" But, doubt is just another thought. It is REALLY this easy - at least in this moment. :)

So, when "Lisa" is gone, what's left?

Just direct experience. Life, glorious, beautiful LIFE unfolding. :)

With thanks,

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

Ha ha! It is amazing to see the answers to these questions unfold. There is no difficulty. It seems so easy and simple. There is an inkling of doubt that passes through. "Is it REALLY this easy?" But, doubt is just another thought. It is REALLY this easy - at least in this moment. :)

So, when "Lisa" is gone, what's left?

Just direct experience. Life, glorious, beautiful LIFE unfolding. :)

With thanks,

~Lisa

:)

So, who is Lisa?

What is Lisa?

Best,
John

[Lisa]

I got a little turned around by this one, because I have just come to the realization that there is no Lisa. Lisa is just a label - just a thought. But then I realized that this must be about my true essence, what is behind the Lisa thought/label. In that case, I would say that my essence is just life. What also comes up is that my essence is love. Life - love...they are the same.

I had to look into this, because some might say that love is just a concept. However, I had an experience,13 years ago, when I was seeking. I guess I would say I was overcome with a feeling of lightness, of care, of safety, of compassion. The label I put on that experience was unconditional love. And it was revealed to me that I am that, not only me...but everything is that. If I am that, and I am life, then life is love and love is life. So, I have experienced that. It was real, not just a concept. So, I feel I can say it now, without it being a thought or a concept.

Of course, these are just words, anyway. What one may call "life" another may call "love". It is certainly easier to stick with "I am life", because "love" is an emotionally-charged word. Nonetheless, that came up, and today, I am seeing that life is flowing through this body effortlessly, so I needed to honor that it came up.

Ever grateful for your guidance,

~Lisa

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Lisa,

I got a little turned around by this one, because I have just come to the realization that there is no Lisa. Lisa is just a label - just a thought. But then I realized that this must be about my true essence, what is behind the Lisa thought/label. In that case, I would say that my essence is just life. What also comes up is that my essence is love. Life - love...they are the same.

Cool. :)

I had to look into this, because some might say that love is just a concept. However, I had an experience,13 years ago, when I was seeking. I guess I would say I was overcome with a feeling of lightness, of care, of safety, of compassion. The label I put on that experience was unconditional love. And it was revealed to me that I am that, not only me...but everything is that. If I am that, and I am life, then life is love and love is life. So, I have experienced that. It was real, not just a concept. So, I feel I can say it now, without it being a thought or a concept.

Of course, these are just words, anyway. What one may call "life" another may call "love". It is certainly easier to stick with "I am life", because "love" is an emotionally-charged word. Nonetheless, that came up, and today, I am seeing that life is flowing through this body effortlessly, so I needed to honor that it came up.

Thank for sharing Lisa.

When you look back at your original posts, what has changed, would you say, since your inquiry here began?

With warmest wishes,
John