H&H (Hello and Help) :)

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Zmay
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H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Zmay » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:18 am

I'm from Croatia, my english is not perfect, but probablly will do.

Until 33 yrs. I was a firm beliver in logic and power of will. Acordinglly lot of outside was accomplised. Just ocassionally the armour was pierced by some small insights, like when I was maybe 14, sitting on the bench in front of sea with my grenfather (85 at this time). Young people going by, he said:" my good, who has inprisoned me into this old body. In this moment I realised I have also no age...I am always the same inside, funny what is that I.
Then, with 33 illnes came, showing me how weak and absolutlly not in control I am, how useless is logic and willpower.
That turned me first in direction of healing, then on the path of alternative thinking...and over the years I changed radically. I have read an gigantic amount of literature (religiouse and new age), have done graduatlly from positive thinking, over tibetan exercise, meditation to regresion, life between life, trained hypnosys and some things beter not mentioned here. I allways done it "by side", first was the normal life and this was done when and how I could incorporate it in my normal life.

Few years ago I felt radical changes will come, I had no interest in reading or working any more...and then it begun. First I changed my live outside (better to say I was thrown out of my life) and then I made a new begining. Now the change and longing for freedom was on the first place, life was a far away second.

Some paths come out of nowhere and things go faster. Last I came to presence process of MB and have done it twice...what a change. I never thought it will come in form of a book...but, as often "I" was wrong.

Is it now a time for more personal guidance...I don't know...but I know I come to this site and that I consider mean something.

If it is time and the right path for me....someone will provide the guidance. "I" think I am ready...something inside is not so sure but is open....

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Eloratea
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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Eloratea » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:12 pm

Hi Zmay :)

If you went through presence process than I guess lots of emotional stuff is released and path is cleared for further looking into this human experience.

This is very particular inquiry focused solely on one thing. Which is no-thing :)
Have you read the disclaimer and some other threads? It is good to be familiar with what is going on here before you continue.
And this more personal guidance as you called it is not so personal, it is just a little, temporary guidance where and how to look in your actual experience to question belief in existence of separate „I“.
It is simple, yet it requires maximal honesty and openness from you.
As you learned to shift focus from mental to emotional in PP here we shift it to pure sensations, perceptions and awareness in which and from which all arises.

So, first, let's see what expectations do you have from this.

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Zmay
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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Zmay » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:13 pm

Hi Eloratea,

thank you for replay, and for little clearance of facts (about personal, temporaly...). About reading, I have read some of it, introduction, and some of the posts. Required is regularity and honesty to self (mostly). Regularity is no problem, and honesty I will give my best, as I have read a ton of book's I naturally have a lot of concepts in my head and I was a head heavy case anyway, so I just can promise I give my best.

As about what I expect, how to bring it in words...I want to come through that barrier and emerge on the other side. I have this long dream of some undefined freedom that I don't have. I have the feeling, I can sniff it in the air, but I can not lay my hands on it. Maybe it is just a mind concept of mine....I guess I expect a earthshifting event and it is not necessarilly so. I'm not sure...I want to end the useless headgames, I want not just to understand what is it about, not just see the sugar...I want to taste it. I want to come home...

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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Eloratea » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:42 pm

As about what I expect, how to bring it in words.
As we work here only with words, you will have to get used on it :) And don't edit much, don't modify intellectually, this is about most accurate description of your actual, row experience in own words.
..I want to come through that barrier and emerge on the other side. I have this long dream of some undefined freedom that I don't have. I have the feeling, I can sniff it in the air, but I can not lay my hands on it. Maybe it is just a mind concept of mine....I guess I expect a earthshifting event and it is not necessarilly so. I'm not sure...I want to end the useless headgames, I want not just to understand what is it about, not just see the sugar...I want to taste it.
All expectations are of course just mental concepts about desired future experience, so we just see them right now as such and leave them here. How this will look like is different for everyone and it is mostly a subtle perceptual shift. But yes, it reduces head-chatter...
I want to come home...
What if home is this, here, right now?
But „I“ is just a thought, and whole personal life story just a thought story? what comes up when you hear this?

With Love.

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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Zmay » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:31 pm

:)
But „I“ is just a thought, and whole personal life story just a thought story? what comes up when you hear this?
What! and what about all my suffering...all just a story...I don't think so...

That's first respons somewhere deep inside...and of course I heard the concept not the first time...and so mind comes in, I understand that...... But I am not feeling it.

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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Zmay » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:45 pm

Funny...that idea, rememberance of suffering somehow makes me feel like i'm better because of it, like it is something that increases my value. Somewhere in me there is an idea that only heavy work, suffering and fighting can produce something of value.

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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Zmay » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:12 pm

One more...this evening a panicking deep fear appeared inside, like a young grass trying to emerge from earth...I stomped it, or looked at it and it disappeared. It was like fear of dying, something deep, strong and incrediblly feary.....like when I let it grow It will be stronger then I and I will dye...so I must get it when it's small and weak.

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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Eloratea » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:50 am

Good morning Zmay :)

How it feels today?
Fear is great. It means you really looked at this and protection mechanism activated.
Now, just a little courage to look behind and see what it protects?
Is there anything at all, or it is just a mirage?

Funny...that idea, rememberance of suffering somehow makes me feel like i'm better because of it, like it is something that increases my value. Somewhere in me there is an idea that only heavy work, suffering and fighting can produce something of value.
Can you see how it is all lots of conditioning, beliefs?
But have you ever checked what is really behind the words: „I“, „me“, „mine“?
Suffering is just a good sign for the work to be done. For some loving attention at our experience and thought patterns.

And nothing is going to die here. Unless you say that belief dies. Fictional character can't die.

Sending Love.

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Zmay
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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Zmay » Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:13 am

Good morning....and what a beautifull morning it is...so nice to hear you again...thank you.

The part of your question about past, my past beeing invented, non existence, haunted me until an hour ago (then world became to demanding :)), it kind of hovered in back of my head...lot of funny feelings, like I was somehow disolving or not having a fixed conture, fixed border beetween me and the world....).
Fear is great. It means you really looked at this and protection mechanism activated.
There is a thing with this...first I can't force this feelings to come up, I just have it like three times in my life. Secondly when it comes I instinctivly back up, when I recognise what it is it is gone allready. Somehow I react as I do, no controle over it.
Can you see how it is all lots of conditioning, beliefs?
But have you ever checked what is really behind the words: „I“, „me“, „mine“?
Yes the conditioning I can see....often. With the I I tried sometimes but not honest or concetrated enough, somehow I get bored or don't know how to do it or somthing else that always block my exploring of the I. The mental concept is there.....but not the real thing, I think it's a part of why I am here...

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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Eloratea » Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:27 am

Is there a border between you and rest of the world?
Was there ever except in thoughts?
Can you see the difference between direct experience and thoughts about it?
Is there „I“ except in thoughts?

Have some time outside, in nature, by the see and look at world with this view, that there is no separate managers of life, just life.

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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Zmay » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:43 am

Is there a border between you and rest of the world?
Was there ever except in thoughts?
Can you see the difference between direct experience and thoughts about it?
Somehow yes, there is a border....ok, to expirience it I think about it and put it in words...but there is a sensation of warm, touch, cold breeze...I definetly feel it on skin. That is a sens of border, what I feel and ....well there is some right in the question...I see something, what is a sense, but I don't think everything I see is me...funny...strange....

But what about movement...I have control of some things that body I call me do, but I have no control about what for example another man or a dog or a tree does. Somehow that seams like there is a me there.

Of course when I dig inside it is always thought...the I would not know that it is a cold breeze if a thought would not form about it....sometimes I feel somehow there is only cold breeze...but then I is not there and also don't know about a breeze...there is no thought, no aditional spin about it is getting cold...must go inside....and so on. But that does not last...

Strange...must dig deeper arround that...aldough I have the feeling the more I dig the more mental I get and it is like pounding against a wall with my head....but there is something light, easy and so simple somwere there on the outskirts that I call I. Can't touch it, can't grasp my mind arround it...but definitly something...like a fluffy cloud of lighteness...I just feel the presence of it, like a background wondering why is he pounding with his head on the wall....:))).
Have some time outside, in nature, by the see and look at world with this view, that there is no separate managers of life, just life.
Will do, I often do anyway because I like that. It's near....

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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Eloratea » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:07 pm

Somehow yes, there is a border....
We don't accept here answers like somehow, guess, maybe…
ok, to expirience it I think about it and put it in words...but there is a sensation of warm, touch, cold breeze...I definetly feel it on skin.
There is a feeling. „On the skin“ is already a bit of insertion. Join your two fingers, where do you feel the sensation? :)
When you here sound where it is. Here or there? Inside or outside?
Is there anything outside of the experience, here, right now? Can it be?
That is a sens of border, what I feel and ....well there is some right in the question...I see something, what is a sense, but I don't think everything I see is me...funny...strange....
Can anything that is seen be you?
Look now at the screen; than try to look at yourself.
What happens?
But what about movement...I have control of some things that body I call me do, but I have no control about what for example another man or a dog or a tree does. Somehow that seams like there is a me there.
Thoughts about doership are always just after thoughts. Check it. They just label the experience, the movement that is going on.
Can you choose what you think? Can you predict your next thought? Can you think more than one thought at the same time?
Of course when I dig inside it is always thought...the I would not know that it is a cold breeze if a thought would not form about it....sometimes I feel somehow there is only cold breeze...but then I is not there and also don't know about a breeze...there is no thought, no aditional spin about it is getting cold...must go inside....and so on. But that does not last...
Good observation. „I“ is maintained through thoughts. But there is no one, no little entity behind little voice in the head.
Strange...must dig deeper arround that...aldough I have the feeling the more I dig the more mental I get and it is like pounding against a wall with my head....but there is something light, easy and so simple somwere there on the outskirts that I call I. Can't touch it, can't grasp my mind arround it...but definitly something...like a fluffy cloud of lighteness...I just feel the presence of it, like a background wondering why is he pounding with his head on the wall....:))).
Dig deeper definitely; just not with thinking, but by direct noticing of the overall actual expereince.
This presence, aliveness, awareness already knows that „I“ is just a thought. Let's make it be seen clearly, consciously to sink more deeply.

Hope you had a nice day :)

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Zmay
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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Zmay » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:04 pm

Thank you very much for the post, will try to get some peacefull time to dig deeper. Where do my finger touch...

Now just short about the day, after about 11 my mind went full throtlle, like it wanted to stop me from going on. I went outside running in the nature, then sat down and looked at the see with ships and sailboats...a very negative picture build up in my head, a real movie about suffering and what is so great about direct expirience...it is all just lot of nothing. I recognised that I jumped on the train of thought and stopped...but for some time a kind of depretion remained...what is so great about feeling how my body aches while I run, direct feeling ... yeah right.

Then sun set down and I was driving my bike back home through a very peacefull street (no cars, lot of schools and small parks...saturday so no kids) and I felt like I'm not there...beautifull birds songs were there, a sureal orange light...I stopped and tried to see it. Some time I was inbetween again, then some people come by and I fellt back again...

I will work with your newest post and then let you know how it went. I am not sure about posting tomorow, maybe I will not be near computer, hopefully yes.

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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Eloratea » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:21 pm

ok, post when you will be able to do so.

Direct experience is never problem in itself. Only thoughts about it and resistance.

Stay well.

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Re: H&H (Hello and Help) :)

Postby Zmay » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:58 pm

There is a feeling. „On the skin“ is already a bit of insertion. Join your two fingers, where do you feel the sensation? :)
When you here sound where it is. Here or there? Inside or outside?
Is there anything outside of the experience, here, right now? Can it be?
Just a feeling...I must look and begin to think to sort out which finger what and how, same with sound...I don't know inside or outside...just sound...then I sort it out, but it goes real fast.
Nothing outside the expirience, but automatically sorting begins...it is almost as one action.
Can anything that is seen be you?
Look now at the screen; than try to look at yourself.
What happens?
It looks like the same thing as with sound. It is just a sense...not me.
I have a laptop on my lap....so I see screen and part of my body. If by myself you mean the idea of me...or what I now percieve as me...well then I can't see the screen any more, at least not clear and I inspect with thoughts my body, where it is how it touches the surrounding, how I feel....and so on.
Thoughts about doership are always just after thoughts. Check it. They just label the experience, the movement that is going on.
Can you choose what you think? Can you predict your next thought? Can you think more than one thought at the same time?
I try to check it...sometimes it is trough, but sometimes it looks not so....for example, I see on the clock it is time for me to go to school to teach...then I comand my body and it goes. If I would not comand it would remain sitting and enjoying itself :).
Mostly I cannot choose what I think, I would dare to say I never can (must investigate longer to be definite on this and I will).
I can't predict next thought and also I can't think two tought at the same time.

That is for now, I will and am digging deeper, and trying to do so not with mind....thank you for your help very much.


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