I am ready for liberation

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Ela
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I am ready for liberation

Postby Ela » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:17 pm

Who who would like to be my guide?

I have been listening to many teachers mostly nondulity and read lots of books. I understand intelectually that there is one life force, one happening but still feel as a separate person. Reading your book, the realization seems so close, like I could get it, but the next moment, I get upset or worry what people think about me.
I have also been doing a dream therapy that is a way of uncovering uncouncious belives and bringthe realization of no separate self. It is working since it teaches to be present with the feelings in the body (especially fear in my case) but it is a very slow process. I am tired of living with "myslef". Like Eckhart Tolle said before his awekening "I can't live with myself anymore". I know that the conditioning still remains after the realization but perhaps it looses the power.
I would be greatfull if somebody would be willing to work with me and help me to see it for myself.
Thank you,
Ela

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neeeel
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby neeeel » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:54 am

Hi, Ela, I am happy to be your guide.

Firstly, can you write me a bit about what you expect from this? What do you expect to happen? What goals do you have in doing this? What brought you to write on this forum?

This process is done through me asking questions, and you answering them . So, you need to answer them honestly. By honestly, I mean what you genuinely think or feel, not what you intellectually "know" are the correct answers, from having read a lot of books.

So, you say, like Tolle, that " I cant live with myself any more"?

So theres an I, and then another one that cant live with the first one? Which one is you? Or are they both you? What if neither one is you? What if you dont exist?

Can you give me a paragraph about what the "I" means to you, in the sentence "I have been listening to many teachers"? What is the "I", the self? What does it do, whereabouts is it in the body? Give me as much as you can about what is meant by self.

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Ela
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby Ela » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:11 pm

Hi Neeeel,

Thank you for responding to my post and helping me to see clearly.
I spent the whole avening yesturday reading your conversations with other seekers and there were moments where I felt like I am getting it, but then the doubts came back. I wonder if it is going to be like that always, because I remember feeling like "I get it " before and then nothing changed, the search continued.
I am not sure how to use the copy function and what other functionsmean, but I give it a try. Is there a spell check available? English is my second language, I am not good at spelling.

To answer your first question:
Firstly, can you write me a bit about what you expect from this? What do you expect to happen? What goals do you have in doing this? What brought you to write on this forum?

My goal is to be free of the psychological self that judges me and others and causes fear, worry and anxiety in my daily life. There is an uneasiness in me especially when with other people as if something is wrong with me and I will be rejected if I am just myself, so there is the deficiency feeling and a need to hide. I hope to be free of this internal contraction, protection and feel lighter, more joyfull just to be alive. There is also afear that if I were to relax, something bad would happen, so I need to be in control. I feel responsible for everything. I would like to be able to relax and let life unfold without resistance from me. I also expect to see some definite shift in the way I see the world and that it will be acceseble at any moment, not just something that happened once and it is only a memory, to live from this new place.
I hope that the chatter in my head will slowly subside and I will be able to live in so called present moment and act and trust my own internal feelings without mental doubts and hesitations. It is very hard for me to make up my mind becasue I don't trust myelf.
I listened all the inverviews at Bhudda at the Gus Pump, that is where I first heard of this website. I new right away that I need to contact you guys and ask for guidence in helping me to see for myself. I noticed that all the teachers talk about "it", but there is no practical way to actually do it for yourself.
So, you say, like Tolle, that " I cant live with myself any more"?
So theres an I, and then another one that cant live with the first one? Which one is you? Or are they both you? What if neither one is you? What if you dont exist?
As I see it, the first "I" is true me (the feeling of I am present, I exist at this moment) that is visceral and the second one is the psycholgical self - the voice in the head, is an image in the head. That second one is not real but is belived to be real so it feels real. It has power becasue it affects the feelings and the body and what
You say what if you don't exist?
When I stay still for a moment - the only thing that I know is that feeling that I exist- the "I am-ness".
It is a bit scary to think that it is all false and I does not exist at all. There is a fear of loosing everything, being out of control, irresponsible, alone, unmotivated to do anything.Do you truly belive that you can not do anything?
Can you give me a paragraph about what the "I" means to you, in the sentence "I have been listening to many teachers"? What is the "I", the self? What does it do, whereabouts is it in the body? Give me as much as you can about what is meant by self.
In the sentence "I have been listening to many teachers"- "I" means some self entity in the head that listenes, learns new things, feels excited or not, decides what to do or what should have been done. etc., accomplishes something. Intelectually I know that it is a false sef (ego) but still it feels like it is the one that makes decisions even though I know from the dream world that the uncouncious mind does most of deciding. (by the way what is uncouncius mind then). 'I" It is fells most real when I do something wrong and the feeling of shame or guilt or regret comes up. There is the feeling that I should or could have done diffrently if I only tried harder and a belive that I can do something about it next time.It is my fault that, I need to improve myself, work on myself, become abetter person. I know that the I is just a thought, but it is connected with the feeling (fear, pain, shame) and that is why it feels real and infuential. It seems that it steals life force- kind of like the moon does not have its own light but reflects the sunlight.
Thank you again for offering your guidence.

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neeeel
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby neeeel » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:00 pm

Hi, Ela, your english is fine, dont worry about it.

Thank you for your detailed reply. With regard to your expectations, its good to have them out in the open. Some, all, or none of them may happen, its different for each person. We are not looking for a specific experience, or feeling, to take place. What I will be doing is pointing you to where you can see that a belief that you have held all your life, is a false belief.




As I see it, the first "I" is true me (the feeling of I am present, I exist at this moment) that is visceral and the second one is the psycholgical self - the voice in the head, is an image in the head. That second one is not real but is belived to be real so it feels real. It has power becasue it affects the feelings and the body and what
So the voice in the head, the images in the head, these are all thoughts, correct?

Take a look at thoughts. Can you find where they come from? And where they go to? Can you choose what to think about? Can you predict your next thought? Was that prediction also a thought?
Try and think of a random thought. How easy was it? How random was the thought? I would guess that your mind jumped about from subject to subject for a bit until it settled on a suitably "random" thought. Or you may have a stock set of "random" thoughts that you use each time.
Do not think of a pink elephant in suspenders. Could you do it? If not, why do you think that image came into your mind?


You say what if you don't exist?
When I stay still for a moment - the only thing that I know is that feeling that I exist- the "I am-ness".
It is a bit scary to think that it is all false and I does not exist at all. There is a fear of loosing everything, being out of control, irresponsible, alone, unmotivated to do anything.Do you truly belive that you can not do anything?
There is a body and brain, they exist. What we are talking about is the "I", the separate entity, that lives life, controls the body, makes decisions, feels the feelings etc.

Feelings exist. So the feeling of "I Exist" is real. But does it point to a real "I" that exists? or is it just a feeling? Take a look at this feeling of "I am-ness". Is it a self? Or is it just an impersonal feeling? Whereabouts in the body is this feeling? What does it feel like?

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Ela
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby Ela » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:35 pm

Hi Neeeel,

The voice in the head or image in the head is a thought form.
Thoughts come by themself out of nothing and they pass into nothing also. Only if we have a belive, desire, attachment they become sticky.
I tried to meditate but I quickly get lost in thoughts untill i catch myself and return to reality.
It seems that we can choose (put attention) to think about something: let's say -plan the next day or when concentrating on somethin, but most of the time thoughts are random, often jumping from one thing to the next.
The question- what is my next thought? stops the mind for a moment as if to say "I don't know"
Can you predict your next thought?
Yes, the prediction is also a thought.

Do not think about pink elephant ...That is a thought itself that has no power to think or not to think of something. The image is created automaticly which is another thought in a form of an image.

Try and think of a random thought. How easy was it? How random was the thought? [/quote]
This also stops the mind for a moment and then something pops up.
Feelings exist. So the feeling of "I Exist" is real. But does it point to a real "I" that exists? or is it just a feeling? Take a look at this feeling of "I am-ness". Is it a self? Or is it just an impersonal feeling? Whereabouts in the body is this feeling? What does it feel like
The sense of I am-ness is felt all over the body, like pulsating energy and presence and it is connected with the image of the body in the head (a thought). It seems to be in this body, not any other body so it seems personal but it may be just life force in this body, alivness The feeling I exist is a real feeling.
The feeling of am-ness or alivness by itself is not a self, only if I add mental image of the body and call it "I".
Thanks for a quick response.
Ela

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neeeel
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby neeeel » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:00 pm

Thoughts come by themself out of nothing and they pass into nothing also
So if they come by themselves out of nothing, are you doing your thoughts? Are you thinking them?
They come from nowhere, you dont know what the next one will be, you cant control them. So are you actively thinking your thoughts? Are you choosing what to think next?



It seems that we can choose (put attention) to think about something: let's say -plan the next day or when concentrating on somethin
It seems like it, maybe. But is it so? You have noticed that
most of the time thoughts are random, often jumping from one thing to the next.
so my question is, is the choosing to put attention , to think about something, to plan the next day, is that also thoughts just jumping from one to the next? Is there a choice to think about planning for the next day? If you cant predict your next thought, if you dont know what your next thought will be, then how can you choose your next thought?

Spend some more time observing thoughts.

The sense of I am-ness is felt all over the body, like pulsating energy and presence and it is connected with the image of the body in the head (a thought). It seems to be in this body, not any other body so it seems personal but it may be just life force in this body, alivness The feeling I exist is a real feeling.
The feeling of am-ness or alivness by itself is not a self, only if I add mental image of the body and call it "I".
Yes, good noticing. So, there is a sense of aliveness, energy. And then there is an afterthought, an after-image, with the label "I" attached. Does that label refer to anything real?

Does the content of the thought accurately reflect reality? We have the reality of sights, sounds, sensations, and thoughts. Plus, we have the content of a thought, labeling this experience as an "I". Is there anything , anywhere , in reality that this thought is pointing to?

We have thought of our car. Content of thought is pointing to car in the real world that we can touch and see
We have thought of santa claus. Content of thought is pointing to nothing in the real world that we can touch and see. There is no Santa anywhere except in imagination. We can come up with loads of stories about him, but he doesnt exist
We have thoughts of "I".....?

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Ela
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby Ela » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:25 am

I will spend more tome on this.

Ela

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Ela
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby Ela » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:02 pm

Hi Neeeel,
I have spend more time observing my thoughts.
So if they come by themselves out of nothing, are you doing your thoughts? Are you thinking them?
They come from nowhere, you dont know what the next one will be, you cant control them. So are you actively thinking your thoughts? Are you choosing what to think next?
It only seems that way becasue the thought "I will think about my upcoming trip" claims that, but the thought just came. Probably the brain or mind sends it according to its conditioning, habits etc.
So I am not activly thinking my thoughts, they just come and I am not choosing what comes next.
my question is, is the choosing to put attention , to think about something, to plan the next day, is that also thoughts just jumping from one to the next? Is there a choice to think about planning for the next day? If you cant predict your next thought, if you dont know what your next thought will be, then how can you choose your next thought?
I am not sure what comes first the though or the attention. It is possible that the attention goes into something and then the thought "I" comes claiming to do it. This happens at least sometimes.
Other times a thought comes for example: "I am idiot" is also associated with a feeling of anger, frustraion so it feel real like "I really am this idiot".
So, there is a sense of aliveness, energy. And then there is an afterthought, an after-image, with the label "I" attached. Does that label refer to anything real?
The lebel "I" refers in this case to the body, to this alivnes in the body. I identifies with the body/mind.

Does the content of the thought accurately reflect reality? We have the reality of sights, sounds, sensations, and thoughts. Plus, we have the content of a thought, labeling this experience as an "I". Is there anything , anywhere , in reality that this thought is pointing to?

We have thought of our car. Content of thought is pointing to car in the real world that we can touch and see
We have thought of santa claus. Content of thought is pointing to nothing in the real world that we can touch and see. There is no Santa anywhere except in imagination. We can come up with loads of stories about him, but he doesnt exist
We have thoughts of "I".....?
The thought of "I" points to the body/mind and what is happening outside or inside the head (other thoughts, images). It is an image but it feels real becasue it is connected to the body.
Ela

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neeeel
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby neeeel » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:29 pm

It only seems that way becasue the thought "I will think about my upcoming trip" claims that, but the thought just came. Probably the brain or mind sends it according to its conditioning, habits etc.
So I am not activly thinking my thoughts, they just come and I am not choosing what comes next.
Yes exactly. "I will think about my upcoming trip" is also a thought. A thought in the never ending stream of thoughts, which we then assume was chosen by us. But, as you see, they just come, as and when they will.
I am not sure what comes first the though or the attention. It is possible that the attention goes into something and then the thought "I" comes claiming to do it. This happens at least sometimes.
Yes, good noticing. Sometimes the attention goes to something, and a thought arises claiming the "I" did it. And sometimes a thought arises which causes the attention to go into something.
In either of these cases, is it true to say that theres an "I" that did it?
Other times a thought comes for example: "I am idiot" is also associated with a feeling of anger, frustraion so it feel real like "I really am this idiot".
Ok, take a look at this. Watch how certain thoughts cause certain feelings. Is it true to say that you thought the thought? Is it true to say that you felt the feeling? The feeling is simply there. Can you make it go away?
So in the same way that you looked at your thoughts, look at your feelings. are "you" doing them?
The lebel "I" refers in this case to the body, to this alivnes in the body.
Is the body an I, a self?
I identifies with the body/mind.
What is the I that identifies with the body/mind?


The thought of "I" points to the body/mind and what is happening outside or inside the head (other thoughts, images). It is an image but it feels real becasue it is connected to the body.
Is the body/mind an I? Does the thought of I refer to anything real?

There are thoughts about the body. Is it "your" body? what is the entity that owns the body?

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Ela
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby Ela » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:21 am

Hi Neeeel,
I have been reading more conversations on the forum and watching the mind.
Yes, good noticing. Sometimes the attention goes to something, and a thought arises claiming the "I" did it. And sometimes a thought arises which causes the attention to go into something.
In either of these cases, is it true to say that theres an "I" that did it?
No," I" is just a label. This label "I"applied to broad area of experience, thoughts, body/mind, things, other thoughts that refer to this assumed entity called self. I think is the same as saying instead the name "Ela did it". What is Ela, just a name.
Ok, take a look at this. Watch how certain thoughts cause certain feelings. Is it true to say that you thought the thought? Is it true to say that you felt the feeling? The feeling is simply there. Can you make it go away?
So in the same way that you looked at your thoughts, look at your feelings. are "you" doing them?
Yes, the thoughts couse feelings, I can see that, so the thoughts have this power if you belive in what they say. What is belive then?
I don't think the thoughts, they just appear and also feelings just appear as a result of a thought or I don't know why. Yes, the thought and the feeling is simply there, but we say I feel this or I think that..
Can I make the feeling go away? I can supress it or rather it gets supressed and the label I is applied. It seems that the label i is added into any experience that just happens by itself.
Is the body an I, a self?
If I just simply look, without thinking about (that is the instruction I often saw on the forum), the body is just the body, and I is only a mental construct.
What is the I that identifies with the body/mind?
It is a thought that is belived in very deeply and not questioned from early eage. Later on is just assumed. In some way it is also a requirement for the use of the language.
It is an assumption that I stands for this individual person, self. A lot of what I refers to is more thoughts about itself as if it was real thing in the world.
Is the body/mind an I? Does the thought of I refer to anything real?
No the body/mind is real and I is real only as a thought. It is a fictional, central character in a storey because in reality there is only the body and a mind, thoughts, feelings, sensations etc.. The thought I does not refer to anything real. Without the addition of the label "I", mine, self the the feelings are impersonal I feel now like there is this separation between the storey in the head that evolves about "I", and the reality of body, mind, emotions, sensations, or whatever is happening at the moment.

There are thoughts about the body. Is it "your" body? what is the entity that owns the body?
There are lots of critical thoughts about the body and it is called "my body'. I realize that ther is no entity that owns the body and the body is not mine (although it feels that way,I guess it is a long established habit).
Thank you,
Ela

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neeeel
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby neeeel » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:34 pm

No," I" is just a label. This label "I"applied to broad area of experience, thoughts, body/mind, things, other thoughts that refer to this assumed entity called self. I think is the same as saying instead the name "Ela did it". What is Ela, just a name.
Yes, I is just a label, like Ela.


Yes, the thoughts couse feelings, I can see that, so the thoughts have this power if you belive in what they say. What is belive then?
Do you mean what is belief? Or what is it that believes in the thought?

You should look at your direct experience and see if you can find the answer?
There are lots of critical thoughts about the body and it is called "my body'. I realize that ther is no entity that owns the body and the body is not mine (although it feels that way,I guess it is a long established habit).

If you are not doing the thoughts, if they just rise up automatically in response to stimuli, then is there any reason to pay attention to them?
What makes a thought critical?
If the thought " I am so stupid" refers to nothing in reality, then...? If the thought "I am so awesome" refers to nothing in reality then.....?


No the body/mind is real and I is real only as a thought. It is a fictional, central character in a storey because in reality there is only the body and a mind, thoughts, feelings, sensations etc.. The thought I does not refer to anything real. Without the addition of the label "I", mine, self the the feelings are impersonal I feel now like there is this separation between the storey in the head that evolves about "I", and the reality of body, mind, emotions, sensations, or whatever is happening at the moment.
Nice. I get the feeling ( though I could be wrong) that its a bit of an intellectual understanding at the moment. What do you think about that ? Do you feel you have seen it clearly ? Was there a sudden Aha! moment? Are there any doubts or misunderstandings at all?
Perhaps you could write a bit about how life is for you now that you have seen this?

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Ela
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby Ela » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:06 am

Thank you Neeeel, I will respond tomorrow

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Ela
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby Ela » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:44 am

Hi Neeeel,
I wrote a long reply early today and it did not go trough. I don't know what happened, perhaps I did not hit submit. I will write again.
Do you mean what is belief? Or what is it that believes in the thought?
You should look at your direct experience and see if you can find the answer?
In direct experience, "I belive" is just another thought, perhaps more habitual, conditioned from early age, never questioned and very often uncouncious.
What belives in a thought? I don't know, you can call it counciousness. Or is it another thought that says that.
If you are not doing the thoughts, if they just rise up automatically in response to stimuli, then is there any reason to pay attention to them?
What makes a thought critical?
If the thought " I am so stupid" refers to nothing in reality, then...? If the thought "I am so awesome" refers to nothing in reality then.....?
Both thoughts are a part of a storey about self, personal mythology.
Then there is no reason to pay attention to any of the thoughts.
The only issue is that thoughts cause feelings in the body that are not always plesent, so that may cause a thought to feel sticky. What makes a thought critical is the conditioning.
Nice. I get the feeling ( though I could be wrong) that its a bit of an intellectual understanding at the moment. What do you think about that ? Do you feel you have seen it clearly ? Was there a sudden Aha! moment? Are there any doubts or misunderstandings at all?
Perhaps you could write a bit about how life is for you now that you have seen this?
I have actually seen that a thought I does not refer to anything on the second day of our conversation but thought that this can not be so simple. I read somwhere in the threads an axample of the word "univeristy". The buildings are real, the students, desks, books but university is a concept that does not exist. This was very clear to me and it was an Aha! moment and I laughted. Then I started to think about it more and daubt it.
The next day I went for a walk and also it seems rediculous to say that "I" is walking. "I" is like an empty world that I can sea in the head and it can be dropped at any time while the walking continues, the same driving etc.
You asked me before if the content of the thought refers to reality. I got very angrey at myself yesterday when I forgot about something cooking on the stove and it burned. The thought came "I am so stupid". This made me more angry, but the label "I am so stupid" did not apply to what was happening (I was boiling with anger and running to open the windows). I did not see it when it was happening but later when I thought about it.

The doubt I have is that the experience of live we have depends on our thoughts and belives which are often in the uncouncious. Even though it is only a storey it manifests as a contraction in the body. Most people actualy live in this dream world. Life flows naturally by itself but there can be a lot of contraction in the body does to resistance to a feeling in the body. What is resisting life? It is another story created in the mind.?It is scary to think that there is no structure, no control. This requires a lot of trust to let go of imagined control. How do we live in the stream in a practical way? Do we stay with the looking at what is real until it becomes a habit? Would we as humans accomplish anything if we don't strive for something even if it is not real.
It is so hard to let go of the notion that all the seeking, making progress is nothing and all you need to do is let go of the expectations and relax go with the flow. How to listen to the flow?

Life for me is the same but it is a little lighter, more relaxed since I see that I am not responsible for "my life". I can stop worrying about my children etc. . Even though I had all these glimpses how reality is, I have some doubts. Perhaps I still need to see more clearly need more help.
I had a dream last night about getting to the gate but the gate is very massive wall with only a small opening. I throw my purse through and go back for help. When I walk back with two man who are supposed to help me climb, there is no gate, we just walk.
In another dream a neclace with little red a blue beads falls to the ground and brakes apart. I gasp and think I need to pick it up, put it back toghether but see tha it will never be the same and let it be.
I hope you can help me to clear all the doubts.

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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby Ela » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:35 am

Hi Neeeel, are you available over the weekend?

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neeeel
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Re: I am ready for liberation

Postby neeeel » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:04 am

What belives in a thought? I don't know, you can call it counciousness. Or is it another thought that says that.
Take a look and see? Is there a thing called consciousness that believes in the thought? Or is the thought "I believe that" just another thought?

Both thoughts are a part of a storey about self, personal mythology.
Then there is no reason to pay attention to any of the thoughts.
The only issue is that thoughts cause feelings in the body that are not always plesent, so that may cause a thought to feel sticky. What makes a thought critical is the conditioning.
Yes, good noticing. A thought triggers feelings, which makes it seem all the more personal. Did you think the thought? Did you feel the feeling? Or is it all just happening? If its just happening, then is it still personal?


I have actually seen that a thought I does not refer to anything on the second day of our conversation but thought that this can not be so simple. I read somwhere in the threads an axample of the word "univeristy". The buildings are real, the students, desks, books but university is a concept that does not exist. This was very clear to me and it was an Aha! moment and I laughted. Then I started to think about it more and daubt it.
The next day I went for a walk and also it seems rediculous to say that "I" is walking. "I" is like an empty world that I can sea in the head and it can be dropped at any time while the walking continues, the same driving etc.
You asked me before if the content of the thought refers to reality. I got very angrey at myself yesterday when I forgot about something cooking on the stove and it burned. The thought came "I am so stupid". This made me more angry, but the label "I am so stupid" did not apply to what was happening (I was boiling with anger and running to open the windows). I did not see it when it was happening but later when I thought about it.
Yup, its really that simple. As you say, the "I" word can be dropped, and walking still happens. And then thoughts pop up with a story about how "I was walking"

When you are in a situation where you are angry, or upset, even though you are swept up in it, you can still notice the thoughts and feelings flying around. You can use these times to look, as well as calm times.
The doubt I have is that the experience of live we have depends on our thoughts and belives which are often in the uncouncious. Even though it is only a storey it manifests as a contraction in the body. Most people actualy live in this dream world. Life flows naturally by itself but there can be a lot of contraction in the body does to resistance to a feeling in the body. What is resisting life? It is another story created in the mind.?It is scary to think that there is no structure, no control. This requires a lot of trust to let go of imagined control. How do we live in the stream in a practical way? Do we stay with the looking at what is real until it becomes a habit? Would we as humans accomplish anything if we don't strive for something even if it is not real.
It is so hard to let go of the notion that all the seeking, making progress is nothing and all you need to do is let go of the expectations and relax go with the flow. How to listen to the flow?
Im sorry, I dont really have answers to these questions. These are all questions about how to live with the knowledge of no self.

Remember that believing in a self, or being swept up in emotion, or resisting life , is also part of the flow. If you see theres no self doing any of it, then you see that getting caught up in the illusion, the dream world, is also automatic and spontaneous. It happens, until it doesnt. And so there is no need to feel bad, or like you have failed. You can always look again, and see that theres no you doing it.
This is just the beginning, if you want it to be. Theres a whole structure of beliefs and conditioning still in place, still to be seen and recognised.

Do you have any doubts about whether you have seen that there is no self? Do you feel you have seen it clearly? Or does it still feel like an intellectual understanding?


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