And again for Ilona

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Alexey Manukhov
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And again for Ilona

Postby Alexey Manukhov » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:06 pm

I've read and practiced a lot, but I feel that I haven't changed radically yet. My mind is with me and it's too strong. I see that thougths and concepts from zen and advaita more interrupt than help me, because they became a mental knowledge for me. I can reply to many serious questions using, for example, Cesar Teruel's point of view, but my ego is steel strong. Please, help me to get rid of the idea of my singularity and wisdom.

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Ilona
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:54 pm

hi Alexey,

here i am :)
so... let's start by leaving all that cumulated baggage right here.

what is it you expect from this conversation?
what do you think this seeing no self is?
what do you want from it?
what you do not want from it?
what are your expectations about this awakening thingy?

write everything that you find inside, full honesty and let nothing stay hidden. the more knowledge you unload here, the easier the next steps will be.

back to you.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Alexey Manukhov
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Alexey Manukhov » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:12 am

Well... I'm waiting for some new state of mind, for the insight, for finishing of my endless thoughts about myself and my problems. I think, seeing from the position of no self is the position of freedom and unpredictability. When I'm in this state, I'm not determined by my past, there are no thoughts about boundaries between me and world. I had got some experiences of this state and I want to study how to live in it.
I want to be free from the idea that I'm this body with its body wishes, from the idea that I'm this personality, which has to assert itself, has to play some limitary roles in the sosiety. As for I don't want... Well, I don't want to loose the feeling "I am" and a freedom of choice.
I think, I wouldn't loose these things after the awakening. I will loose many silly things, like ideas about myself, like arrogance, like race for my wishes.

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Alexey Manukhov
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Alexey Manukhov » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:34 am

I think that after the awakening I won't be afraid of loosing time, of opinions of other people about me, of future plans, of contradiction of me and my expectation about myself.

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Ilona
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:22 am

Thank you very much for the answers.

What we are looking here for is not a state.
States come and go. Sometimes it's bliss other times anger and sadness. Expansion- contraction, such is movement of life.

It's is most similar to the event, when as children we bieved in magical fairy takes. Like Ded moroz. And if you believed in this, one day recognition happened- Ded moroz does not exist! You could still enjoy stories about him, but that did not put you in any state- it is simply a drop of belief.

So now you believe, that there is this I, my body, my thoughts, my opinions, my suffering, my life.
There is no I. There is no self at all in reality, as in zero.

Consider this to be truth and watch how this body reacts Uto it, what thoughts and feelings come up. Write to me what is noticed.


Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Alexey Manukhov
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Alexey Manukhov » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:31 pm

It's a very strange experience, like a phantom pain. I feel that me is an illusion, but it turns on some strong states and passions to show that it's real. When I see illusority of I, some sort of calmness comes and all plans and other thoughts finish. It's like waves. I tried to feel that the idea about I is like the idea about Ded Moroz, but the first one is stronger - it's an old habit. But it became harder for this idea to deceive me, because I am more aware now.

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Ilona
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:43 pm

The first one is stronger as it hasn't been examined yet.


Somewhat is that I that you mention? Where is it felt? What is it made of? What is it's purpose and function? Sit with it and answer when ready, don't just write what you read or heard, but what you see when you examine it closely.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Alexey Manukhov
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Alexey Manukhov » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:15 pm

When I try to investigate I, it becomes foggy, eely. Only this moment remains real and all thoughts disappear very fast. And sleepy state comes very often, or boredom, or waiting for some new state. And the feeling "I" turns into the list of memories, achievements, likes and dislikes after the focused investigation.

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Ilona
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:25 pm

Good stuff. So now let's look at mind as labelling device. It labels everything that comes into focus.
Try looking around you and not to label what is seen, heard or experienced. Watch how it works. And notice that labels are just that- labels, tags, names. They are not things, not solid, but pointers to something that is.

Like label table, if I say table, you know whee to look and you can touch it, put other things on it.
Or if I say unicorn, do you imediately recognise that it's not a real something, but a fantasy creation, do you look for it in the room?

Play with labels for a while and answer me this- what does label me point to, something rea or not. Real as in experienceble through senses. Not real as in made up by thoughts.

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Alexey Manukhov
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Alexey Manukhov » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:51 am

While I've been looking to my mind, I've seen some interesting things. For example, I ascertained that all thoughts about future are hallucinations, that are made of memories. When I make plans, I loose this moment. I recognised the shift between these two states. It's like an awakening from a night dream. These thoughts about past and future don't lead me up to something real, but to some deeper hallucinations. And when I try to look at things as they are, without judgements, my thoughts and worries disappear in a short time. But it's not so easy to stay in this aware state. I recognise that I loose reality in some minutes and start thinking again.

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Ilona
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:00 am

Yes, that is right, mind is dreaming about future or past, what is here now is silent. It will keep dreaming till mind sees that it's pointless.

Please focus on precise questions that I give you. Answer them one by one.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Alexey Manukhov
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Alexey Manukhov » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:22 am

As for the table and unicorn... When I talk about them, I make some mental pictures in both cases, that are not connected to the reality. As long as I'm thinking and talking about table, I'm becoming farther from the real table. So, I can say that labels don't point to something real. They are situated in different reality - in virtual one.

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Ilona
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:15 am

Dow about this label me? What does that point to?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Alexey Manukhov
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Alexey Manukhov » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:47 pm

I couldn't catch this question for a long time - simply fall asleep or walked without any thoughts. Then the insight has come that label "I" tends not to one goal, but to the complex of phenomenons that I automatically connect with me. It could be point of view, shape of the body, achivements in different kinds of activity. It's like a multiathlon: I feel that I should collect some points to be good enough.

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Ilona
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Re: And again for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:32 pm

Take a look from this angle- label me points to other thoughts ABOUT me, but not anything real.
There is no me at all in reality, it is just a thought.

If you look at thoughts close up, is it me that thinks them or me is another thought?
Where do thoughts come from?
Can a thought think?
Can Ded moroz think?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com


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