Alekx

[Alekx]

Q: Where do feelings originate? If you can examine a real life example, of a feeling happening right now, even better. Was this feeling manifested by an internal being or source, a "you"? Did it originate inside "you", or was it external influences?
A: Oh no I don't indentify with the feeling, It just feels right in the gut.
It's hard for me to track down the origin of the feeling, the only thing Is that I just got alert or more so 'aware' of that, when I feel the void in the gut, or the wrenching in the throat, but then it passes.

Q: Do you own this feeling?
A: Not really I have been practicing the leting go the sedona method teaches and it has worked just fine of letting go issue, altough the images of seeking aprobation, or trying to impress 'others' the 'triggers' still dance in the mind, but without emotional reaction, sometimes. I think I need to work some more with this.

Q: Does it need you to cause it and/or feel it to exist? Is it possible that experience can exist without an experiencer?
A: I think it need a 'me' to cause it when the images in the brain/mind; happens, so the feeling is triggered sometimes with this images, or movies.

Q: Is it possible that experience can exist without an experiencer?
A: I think yes, but It needs a reference point... to exist.

If you look at direct experience, right now, what can the senses verify as being real? Furniture, walls, floor, objects? The body? Sounds, textures, colours? Emotions? And thoughts too, right? So thoughts themselves are real phenomena. It's what's in a thought that might not be real - that is, not verifiable when compared to reality.
Yeah sense of sight... all common sensorial perception the human has, and the subjective internal experience of the 'thoughts'...
Wow... So, the content of the tought it's just an illusion... but...
Is created by whom? What If I can imagine a tree in the mind... so who's doing the tree? I know this is not
reallity but more like a internal representation of a tree, not a 'real tree', Is this important?

Q: How about self, are there thoughts about a self? Can you actually find a self anywhere in reality though? Take a good hard look. Don't worry about semantics, don't worry about secondhand experiences, it's all just more thought. Let it go. Actually LOOK at what is real, right now.
A: You mean self, like a person or an entity? no... there's nothing...

This does not need to be a particularly long and painstaking process, but it does require courage, focus, and honesty.

This!... I think I'm getting a little caught up in the melodramatic portrait of enlightenment McKenna does of the 'waking up'.
and This! Courage, Focus, honesty-

I'm not shure if some parts totally click in me.

I will reread this one, with more (Courage, Focus, honesty-)

[Nemo]

Hey Alekx.

Q: Do you own this feeling?
A: Not really I have been practicing the leting go the sedona method teaches and it has worked just fine of letting go issue, altough the images of seeking aprobation, or trying to impress 'others' the 'triggers' still dance in the mind, but without emotional reaction, sometimes. I think I need to work some more with this.

Cool. I'm not familiar with the sedona method. If it works, keep going. Also, "letting go" becomes far easier once self illusion dissolves, and it's realised that any holding on is an illusion too, as there isn't really anyone there to hold on. The urge to try and impress others can still come up, but that's all it is, an urge. Not your urge, no you trying to impress others, just an urge standing all on it's own. Just a thought. And, as you said, "the content of the thought it's just an illusion."

Q: Does it need you to cause it and/or feel it to exist? Is it possible that experience can exist without an experiencer?
A: I think it need a 'me' to cause it when the images in the brain/mind; happens, so the feeling is triggered sometimes with this images, or movies.

Look at this a bit more closely. Images in the brain/mind happen. Is there a you behind them, do you consciously decide to will the images into existence, or do the images just appear on their own? So why is there this illusion of a 'me' causing things...?
See if this is true: Does the "I" thought come in after the images appear and try to take credit, try to make sense of things by attaching ownership and identification with the images? Take a look, find out what is happening for sure.

Q: Is it possible that experience can exist without an experiencer?
A: I think yes, but It needs a reference point... to exist.

Sure, there appears to be a reference point. But is the reference point any more a self than the body?

If you look at direct experience, right now, what can the senses verify as being real? Furniture, walls, floor, objects? The body? Sounds, textures, colours? Emotions? And thoughts too, right? So thoughts themselves are real phenomena. It's what's in a thought that might not be real - that is, not verifiable when compared to reality.
Yeah sense of sight... all common sensorial perception the human has, and the subjective internal experience of the 'thoughts'...
Wow... So, the content of the tought it's just an illusion... but...
Is created by whom? What If I can imagine a tree in the mind... so who's doing the tree? I know this is not
reallity but more like a internal representation of a tree, not a 'real tree', Is this important?

Who IS doing the tree? Is internal really separate from external? If eyes had never seen a tree externally would mind be able to create the image of a tree internally? If there is a separate entity inside who can decide to imagine things, can you ask him to imagine something made up entirely of components he's never seen before? Can he think of a colour that doesn't already exist?
Are you doing the tree, or is everything but you - life, environment, circumstance - doing the tree?

Q: How about self, are there thoughts about a self? Can you actually find a self anywhere in reality though? Take a good hard look. Don't worry about semantics, don't worry about secondhand experiences, it's all just more thought. Let it go. Actually LOOK at what is real, right now.
A: You mean self, like a person or an entity? no... there's nothing...

This is wonderful! And not just something you've heard, something you've found out to be true in personal experience. Excellent, you're doing really well.

This!... I think I'm getting a little caught up in the melodramatic portrait of enlightenment McKenna does of the 'waking up'.

Yes, it's really easy to get caught up in someone else's portrait and experience of enlightenment (particularly McKenna's) and have it become a hinderance on your own.
You know how Jed talks about that old Buddhist saying, "If you meet The Buddha along the road, kill him" ?
Well, this is the point along your road where you meet Jed. It's time to slice his fucking head off! :)

and This! Courage, Focus, honesty-

I'm not shure if some parts totally click in me.

I will reread this one, with more (Courage, Focus, honesty-)

Beautiful, Alekx. Music to my ears. Take these three weapons and sharpen them, they will make quick work of destroying belief in self.

Is there a you?

[Alekx]

Look at this a bit more closely. Images in the brain/mind happen. Is there a you behind them, do you consciously decide to will the images into existence, or do the images just appear on their own? So why is there this illusion of a 'me' causing things...?
See if this is true: Does the "I" thought come in after the images appear and try to take credit, try to make sense of things by attaching ownership and identification with the images? Take a look, find out what is happening for sure.

Yes it happens automatically, as allways when I turn my internal focus or conscience on the brain: it's chattering seeing images, BY IT'S OWN. Haha how fool of me thinking that I 'create' images at will. And when I'm not operating this shit keeps going; ranting, and cataloguing, judging, fantasising, hard punching imaginary people... hehhe

The images happens, so tought happens, there's no I.

Sure, there appears to be a reference point. But is the reference point any more a self than the body?

I cannot think of other reference point, other than the one you mentioning.

Who IS doing the tree? Is internal really separate from external? If eyes had never seen a tree externally would mind be able to create the image of a tree internally? If there is a separate entity inside who can decide to imagine things, can you ask him to imagine something made up entirely of components he's never seen before? Can he think of a colour that doesn't already exist?
Are you doing the tree, or is everything but you - life, environment, circumstance - doing the tree?

It's a 'conceptualization' of the external... again I am not doing anything.
Nope I cannot think/made of anything that I don't have at least one piece of information stored in my bodily senses.

Is there a you?

There is no me, when I search inside I found nothing but memories of external events, that I called me, but there's only like... How can I say it... was and is like a show and just some- 'one' -'thing' was observing/experiencing, but parents and the parents of them (no blame intended) came with names, cutesy and cosy little attachments when you said something funny when you where little, or sang some song... but heck... It's like there just where a thing inside a body experiencing external events. It's little freaky, now that I think of it. The big word here is ATTACHMENT.

Theres no me, the me I tought as me, it's just a collection of emotions & memories recalled inside the brain, sometimes in a messy way, sometimes in a ordered way... but quoteing myself... the content of a tought it's an illusion, so all that I experienced as reallity is, well; an illusion. If I remove or more so 'let go' of this memories and emotions, (the destroying process) what's is left, is truth? This is turning a little scary.

[Alekx]

I must say I'm interested in dreams, and because for the curious note:

I dreamed about my parents died, both of them, the grief was very very painful during the dream, even now recalling the dream gets me so off balance, but I can handle it.

Also I dreamed being I was in a movie teather with them (Heh I know, the 'plato cave' Jed's version) It was SO comfortable, even in the theater whe had a cozy blanket and some delicious snacks, and yes more people.
And also we bought some tickets to a go to a very expensive concert.

I think It's the way subconsious has to get me aware like:
Hey dude realize what you are dropping... Put in balance the things you will loss... Meh... I think it's too late for that warning, and besides anything is loss.

But to be honest it's becoming a little hard.

[Nemo]

Dreams are amazing, I absolutely love dreaming. Sometimes they seem deep, sometimes they're like a bunch of random thoughts. I can't say whether they can tell us anything. Whatever you need to be made aware of, the waking world can do just as good a job - or perhaps an even better and less cryptic one.

It stil seems you are holding on to some of Jed's ideas. What do you think you will lose? Being liberated from belief in self shows you that you never actually owned anything anyway. Your parents, your friends, your stuff, your own body, none of it yours. So you can never actually lose anything. When Jed says you lose everything it's a pointer, and I believe it is this that he is pointing to. Seeing nothing was ever yours means you lose everything. But it also means there is nothing to lose. The only thing that can really be lost is belief in self. But as you'll see, this never belonged to you either.


Your entire post before that was absolutely terrific.

There is no me, when I search inside I found nothing but memories of external events, that I called me, but there's only like... How can I say it... was and is like a show and just some- 'one' -'thing' was observing/experiencing, but parents and the parents of them (no blame intended) came with names, cutesy and cosy little attachments when you said something funny when you where little, or sang some song... but heck... It's like there just where a thing inside a body experiencing external events. It's little freaky, now that I think of it. The big word here is ATTACHMENT.

Theres no me, the me I tought as me, it's just a collection of emotions & memories recalled inside the brain, sometimes in a messy way, sometimes in a ordered way... but quoteing myself... the content of a tought it's an illusion, so all that I experienced as reallity is, well; an illusion. If I remove or more so 'let go' of this memories and emotions, (the destroying process) what's is left, is truth? This is turning a little scary.

This is it, you're looking right at it. Keep looking at this, and explain it some more. Was there ever a you? What was the trigger in seeing this? Now that you see this, what has changed?

[Alekx]

This is it, you're looking right at it. Keep looking at this, and explain it some more. Was there ever a you? What was the trigger in seeing this? Now that you see this, what has changed?

I don't know if was ever a you, only the people I know they percieved me like that, like 'me'. Shure before I knew this I thought that was a me... but more like an external events shaped 'persona', not actually ME.

The trigger in seeing what? That I am not me?... well I analized LOGICALLY from the neutral perspective like one that is observing the content of a life... (BigBrother ring a bell?) and is like a movie, not a real person per se, and I applied that to me, first it was a little freaky because I was analysing the content of 'myself', but at the same time was liberating because I knew I was des-idenfiying with this 'actor' as 'me', haha it's ridiculous!

What had changed is that I am starting to feel like an impostor, playing a role I don't want to. And all the 'other people' too, though this do not saddens me, because I let go of trying to control whatever people want to do with their lifes. It's like playing a role I know I am not, at the same time I'm more withdraw with people in general call; it close familiars, sometimes friends and acquaintances... but this time I don't feel bad like before because it was as a past yearn for approval, now I feel Neutral and balanced, centered, wow this is good!, and this is beautiful from my perspective.

Altough they sometimes doesn't seem to notice me, (when I don't want it) like I'm a gosht and I feel DIABOLICAL, muwhaha like a superpower or something, but, at the same time at will my prescence is more... intimidating? strong? I think... I sense in people a little bit more like courious and in the mean time, like... they want something from me, I don't know what it is but I can sense they view me different. Don't assimilate the fully scope of their percievings.

Thanks for the response Nemo.

[Nemo]

Haha yeah, when this first started to hit me, I felt like a huge impostor too. Everything seemed so inauthentic. Sometimes it still does, but it's okay, there's nobody behind the roles to blame for this, it's just the nature of thought, especially thoughts centred around an "I". So seeing the truth, naturally brings reality closer. Or vice versa.
But you know what? You're not really an impostor playing a role. It's just a role playing itself out. They are all roles just playing themselves out, no one and nothing behind them. It's not really fake because there is no "real you" role that you could play. Do you see?

Alekx. I have one more question for you. How would you explain no-self to someone who had never heard about it before?

[Alekx]

How would you explain no-self to someone who had never heard about it before?

It's the process of de-constructing your most cherished and shurely unquestioned beliefs about yourself, it's analizing under the scope of logic and neutrallity, it's about illuminate all the shit you've piled through years and years in your attic about what you think you are, and start trowing to the trash the shit that is useless, and in the end you will find everything that has been stored there is completely useless.

So, the question you may ask to you is... What do you define You as you? and then slice the motherfucking untrue shit, until it hurts in your soul. It's also a way of seeing and questioning all that you know that is true you in your daily life about yourself. No self also is dropping the role in which you may acting, because in the end there is none acting, it's just life happening. You are no different of a squirrel if you want it see it that way, you cannot control your breathing nor the squirrel can, because this furry little bastard lives in total harmony with the universe, and because this fucker do not resist of what it is, and if he don't find a nut... he don't label bad, to the convenience or thankfullness of a personage who is in favor or versus the event... so you can if you remove the illusion of control and more important the illusion of 'YOU' over yourself in the inside and in the outside world (the same shit), and let the universe decide what's best for you, because, if you check it right know you cannot control it. You can decide if it fits you; still acting the role or not, or change role, or no role whatshoever. Would you be my squirrel?

No self is the natural deprogrammed state like when you are born, it's like a brand new computer with the operating system, but a hard disk that only works as a RAM memory (I know so fucking GEEK!) but hey that's what analogies are form... because it is not imprisioned by the bonds of beliefs about yourself you got accumulating trough your daily life and reinforced by the 'external' world, AND it's about letting go the emotions that are tied to this fictional character named 'you', really it's about leting go of yourself it's about letting go of everything you know as fact, because life it will take care of itself if you have the right intent. No self it's the unification with life itself, it's the way allways has been.

It's like getting out of your way in some way, because the person's 'ego' is blocking the energy that it's contained in all this 'magnificient theather' of being alive, that is just one thing, not separated shit. I don't know when it ends the no-self it's infinite, it's self contained, being the tyniest micro part the thing containing quarks or the more macro galaxies you know of in books, the scary thing is that it never ends not inside or outside, it never was, it is what it is, it's called reallity and YOU are reallity.

[Nemo]

Really nice work Alekx.