somewhat dillulusioned ish, going through shadow

[jrwever]

Am I aware

First, there's awareness before claiming of "I'm aware or I'm awareness" or before that registers.
Another way of putting the same thing: there's still awareness or perception after the thought "I'm awareness or am I awareness" goes away, suggesting that whatever is here is more like awareness and less like a single thought or a clearly defined I self thing. Pressured further: I'm hesitant to say label "I'm awareness, or I'm aware," but that's not so far off what I'm still kinda thinking now. For example, seeing is still happening, and perception seems to still be structured around the seen out there and something implied in here.
if you have an clarifynig questions on this, i’d like to explore it further, but can’t really do it well on my own yet. 


What is there to defend?

on the insight of thoughts defending, i’m not sure how much i resonate at all with it anymore. In talking about it with Vince Schubert, the thing he thought was interesting/invaluable is that while that was all happening, I was led into my body at what felt like a microscopic level and something relaxed /released like never before. If I recall, the insight on defense was that the content of the thought which was telling a story of me and my and my feelings, was betraying an underlying insecurity that someone needed to be defended by thoughts. Like it would be “I feel angry” but underneath it was a felt tone of instability. That’s what felt like true, and i swear when it happened it was like oh my god did i just become enlightened because of how intense it was lol. Nowadays, I have no idea about anything I just wrote.

What things, exactly?


not sure lol. often when this type of shift happens for me, it’s a temporary but large drop in suffering for a few hours or even a day, a decrease in the amount of visual / sound imagery and thoughts, so that’s some of the quieting of experience, and a sense of there being less going on / less needed to do. A relief. With this one, it was like some of the i-ing cleared out and left “me” with less to struggle through — for a bit. 


Please describe it.

I think the best way to describe it is I’m getting dragged by mental experience. It’s like a battle with thoughts and the stuff going on in my brain, I always feel like I have to do something about the thoughts, often want to or it feels kinda good to, but often it’s like I’m just waiting for the storm to die down. It’s like pushing and pulling on feelings to somehow make them feel temporarily better: I might have a thought I judge so i “lean” into the pleasant tone of not judgining and relief where I then end up in another unpleasant tone. This is very painful and involuntariy, uncomfortable. Around people, it’s even worse: triggered constantly by myself - interpretation running about what’s happening, about what i’m doing wrong, around how I might be a better person when I pick up on my flaws.

They are just like you.

I’ve heard this, for sure, but i’ll say it’s never really resonated, except in like really soft ways if that makes sense.

Do you think you have - or have ever had - any say over how you feel when you feel that way? That avoiding those feelings does anything other than burying them temporarily, or forcing them to express themselves in other ways?

Not really during some events - like i’ll have intrusive thoughts that are really compellingly like “what if you did the horrible thing you’d least like to do in this situation” as if I’d been plannig to do it, on the way to do it, and would prefer that. In those cases, i’m like f those thoughts why are they here. In other times, it’s more like I’m the one doing it wrong and I gotta figure out how to make it better. In those cases theres perception of choice and say (leaning into certain tones or experimenting with questioning certain assumptions, but often after a couple hours the end conclusion is that it was a storm of its own will and what I did or didn’t do either did nothing, was part of the storm itself, or makes me tired.

“even perhaps unlabeled. What do you mean?”

Ok this was running on an idea from youtube that when we drop the labels of physical sensations like “anger,” and just feel the sensations, that everything is totally ok and enjoyable. From my perspective, I still often think that certain thought+sensation combos really suck to experience even when I don’t label it anything and try to just drop in. I’m somewhat suspicious that I’ve replaced the label like anger with just a mental note like “Feeling” or “visual thought I associate with anger”. 


is that real? Is what real?

This was hitting on my still currently on-going mistrust of my experience being complete vs incomplete and thus trustworthy or in this case real. I believe that there are illusions for me to see through, so everything kinda reeks of “still needs adjustment, questioning, experimentation / curiosity, labeling, LU, my other guide.” There’s no where I’ve been able to land but also no where that feels good or where I can say i’ve seen through the final layer. Nothing feels fundamentally like my real true self, so every insight is kinda like woah but also i can’t / don’t really trust it, especially since insights sometimes come in thought+sensation form, even the ones other guides have kinda backed me up on - for an example of that - my guide gave me a koan, and one night I was resting and not thinknig about it and all of a sudden there was a sense of it just un-knotting itself with the thought “it just happens” at the same time.

will that go away? Will what go away?

Right now there’s still a sense of there’s still something or someone that’s more like an invisible entity working on things, vaguely somehow controlling or making decisons or being forced to interact with the content of experience. this was an expectations check: what really goes away. I’ve heard things both like “there’s no one talking to nothing” and “I am sound” so not really sure what to expect, which is whatever.

Are you aware?

revisitng, there’s awareness even when “i’m not doing it.” like listening intently to a conversation, there’s no I thought, but listening definitely still happening. I’m not sure I want to call that awareness me, like “i’m aware”, but *it’s also not not like that* in a stupid way. like awareness is happening and it’s pretty darn easy to think of that as me. Like it doesn’t feel foreign, for one, it’s kinda familiiar or pleasant

[jefe2060]

Thank you for your work.

By the way, the last sentence of this:

ME: "Are you aware?"


YOU:

revisitng, there’s awareness even when “i’m not doing it.” like listening intently to a conversation, there’s no I thought, but listening definitely still happening. I’m not sure I want to call that awareness me, like “i’m aware”, but *it’s also not not like that* in a stupid way. like awareness is happening and it’s pretty darn easy to think of that as me. Like it doesn’t feel foreign, for one, it’s kinda familiiar or pleasant

is brilliant. We will circle back here soon. Meantime, ask yourself the same question, often, and LOOK:

“Am I aware?”




…


One general comment.

You mentioned recently that you “cut corners” on one of the exercises for the sake of time.

I would rather you take more time to do this work deeply and in an unhurried manner than for you to bang it out. If you need more time to be thorough, take it, and just post that you need more time. This doesn’t mean to lollygag or procrastinate, I’m just saying that same old thing: we get out of it what we put into it.
I had the feeling from reading a few of your comments that it was generally an unpleasant task that someone was making you do. You also mentioned (I think twice?) that they were “my” exercises. Hmmm.

If it’s unpleasant to do this, that’s worth noting.

If you feel the urge to rush because something is uncomfortable to sit with, that’s also worth noting.

Please let me know about this stuff. I might be projecting or making it all up. Let me know.



…

I think the best way to describe it is I’m getting dragged by mental experience. It’s like a battle with thoughts and the stuff going on in my brain, I always feel like I have to do something about the thoughts, often want to or it feels kinda good to, but often it’s like I’m just waiting for the storm to die down.

Yes.

Things will get a lot easier for you when you put all of this into one bucket.

It's just thinking, interpretation, and associated body sensations - if any.

Period.

You can't fight a thought with another thought, and you can't fight a thought with your body. It's pointless. Thoughts have no form, and no more power in of themselves to do anything to anybody than a 1,000,000,000th of a worm fart. The only way they get any “power” is when we

(a) have trained all our lives to think they mean something intrinsically,

(b) think that they are who we are,
and

(c) launch ourselves into action in habitual “defensive”, old brain reactivity**, and after the dust clears, come up with more evidence (thoughts) that they deserve the sacred cow position we put them in to begin with.

**What do I mean by “old brain reactivity”?

Humans are, if not precisely “hard wired” instinctively to react to real or perceived threats and opportunities - the imperatives to eat, sleep, reproduce, be one of the herd, and to be comfortable - we are pretty close to it. These responses are behavioral extensions of the autonomic nervous system’s function to maintain homeostasis.

The thing is, since we developed language and the intellect, our instincts for survival have become intertwined with the products of “higher” reasoning, acculturation, and the trends of “civilization”. As we know from our personal experience of what it's like to be a person - the “micro” level - or by looking out at at the “macro” view of our species, this is pretty much a recipe for disaster, because the “mind” (mental processing capacity) shares its opinions and points of view with both our actual survival instincts and our interpretation of them That's why we feel “threatened” when someone disagrees with us and isn't nice about it, rejects our romantic interests, and are deathly afraid of all kinds of silly things that have nothing whatsoever to do with anything that could possibly kill us. To the mind, all fear is the fear of death. All rejection is the fear of death. All disagreement is the potential threat of death.

Since all this #$&*%$ is held together by thinking, interpretation, and the various body sensations we are specifically conditioned by our formative experiences to directly associate with those thoughts, it stands to reason that any idea, perspective, or direct attempts by the individual or others to “mess with our minds” automatically brings up resistance.

The resistance is so deep and normal that we don't notice it as such. It just feels like we are being asked to fit into boxes or have boxes jammed into us that there is either nothing like any space for or that we couldn't fit into if we chopped ourselves up into little bits and shoved with all our might.

So, go ahead. Just try to convince yourself that there's no separate self.

Yeah. Right.

If it doesn't “feel” like it and we can't think our way into it, then wtf?

You definitely cannot think your way into what you are looking for here, and you can't feel your way into it, not in the conventional sense anyway. The way you have always navigated through life has given you what you have.

But what you want is closer than your eyelashes.

It's closer than close.

Who you are is what you are right where you are, just like this. With all the stuff you have going on.


It’s like pushing and pulling on feelings to somehow make them feel temporarily better:


See for yourself.

Thoughts are not body sensations, body sensations are not thoughts, and the patterned combination of these is what turns into and what we call “feelings”

Look now for any recent situation or memory of what would be referred to as a “negative” “feeling”.

There might easily be something going on with you situationally, mentally, emotionally, or physically that is not pleasant for you, or where you feel stress, longing, or a tendency to want things to be different. Pretty easy to find something like this.

Find something (or more than one thing) that fits the bill you talked about, either in your narrative above or here:

I might have a thought I judge so i “lean” into the pleasant tone of not judgining and relief where I then end up in another unpleasant tone. This is very painful and involuntariy, uncomfortable. Around people, it’s even worse: triggered constantly by myself - interpretation running about what’s happening, about what i’m doing wrong, around how I might be a better person when I pick up on my flaws.

It's all twisted together, so please pick out at least 2 actual examples. Make it 3.

Get them clearly written out. Don't go to extraordinary lengths to describe them, but make them understandable.

Write them like this:

A.
1. The situation is _____.
2. It makes me feel ____.
3. My feeling/interpretion is made of _______ (one or more of the 6 direct sense experiences: list below)
a.___
b.___


B.
1. The situation is _____.
2. It makes me feel ____.
3. My feeling/interpretion is made of _______ (one or more of the 6 direct sense experiences: list below)
a.___
b.___


C.
1. The situation is _____.
2. It makes me feel ____.
3. My feeling/interpretion is made of _______ (one or more of the 6 direct sense experiences: list below)
a.___
b.___



Please use the precise form I am suggesting. Copy, paste, and follow it exactly. Keep your answers focused on the 6 categories or ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. Avoid conjecture or speculation. Don’t be creative, witty, or especially complex in your answers.


We need to steer away from those kinds of complex narrative descriptions of your experience, not because I’m a hard-@$$, but because it is precisely what is ensnaring you. You will not get out of this if you do not either intentionally, or by accident (you could awaken any time, for any reason, or none - nobody is ever in control of it, although we can try to cooperate with it) see thought as thought, either because you meditate, stumble, psychedelically fly, or LOOK at it objectively - meaning, as the object of experience that it is.

The goal here is for you to be able to distinguish between the elements of experience that have normally been collapsed (there’s daylight between them) so you can clearly see what’s what, and what isn’t.

I think the best way to describe it is I’m getting dragged by mental experience. It’s like a battle with thoughts and the stuff going on in my brain, I always feel like I have to do something about the thoughts, often want to or it feels kinda good to, but often it’s like I’m just waiting for the storm to die down. It’s like pushing and pulling on feelings to somehow make them feel temporarily better: I might have a thought I judge so i “lean” into the pleasant tone of not judgining and relief where I then end up in another unpleasant tone. This is very painful and involuntariy, uncomfortable. Around people, it’s even worse: triggered constantly by myself - interpretation running about what’s happening, about what i’m doing wrong, around how I might be a better person when I pick up on my flaws.

There seem to be quite a few “I”, “me”, and “my” forms involved in this retelling.

Please re-read the narrative. In each instance, notice that “I” becomes rather completely absorbed in whatever the color or flavor of the particular experience or aspect of experience happens to be at the moment.

It is a chameleon. Each instance is mediated by thought about the circumstance. But does that make any sense? It may have something to do with why it takes us so long to “find ourselves”, and, equally, why we are so confused. And why we suffer.

Do you understand? Tell me how you see (or don't see) this in your own words:


Now let’s bring it into the present.



1.
Sit quietly.
Calm down.
Notice the various aspects of your experience, and just let them all be as they are.
Breathe.
Relax.

Then, please look now and see how many “I forms” there actually are where you are now.

How many “I’s are there - in, with, associated with, in your experience, now?


Please don’t tell a story about this. Each time you refer to thought to describe your experience, the story gets wilder and wilder, and you go around and around.

Just look, count ‘em up, and write down a number. How many “I”s are there, where you are, now?



2.
Think back over the course of your life and come up with 10 memories. Write each of them down in shorthand form in a numbered list. I don’t need to know the stories, as long as you know which one from your life you are referring to. Abbreviate or use no more than 4-5 words to describe each. Less is better, but not so few that you can’t remember what you were talking about.

The memories should stretch back through your whole life, as far back as you can recall. Make sure there are stories from each or most of the decades you have been alive.

For each memory, sit quietly for a moment and bring yourself into that experience to the best of your ability. Zoom in.

For each memory, notice: how many “I”s were there? How many of you were there? Just provide a number.


When you are done, make any comments you would like to make about doing the exercise.

What did you see / know / learn?


Cheers

J

[jrwever]

Hi Jeff, for some reason my email didn't notify me about your reply, so I'm getting to this super late. I'll reply to your post tomorrow! Just wanted to let you know
Jack

[jefe2060]

Check! Thx for letting me know.

By the way, it struck me that I don't know how or if your work here makes sense in terms of what you are doing with Vince? And that he's (in theory?) pointing to the same thing? And you meet with him 2X per week?

Isn't this all a lot of content to process? How do you see it working?

J

[jrwever]

Random, but I really like koans, so if you can think of any that might get me, please feel free.

Isn't this all a lot of content to process? How do you see it working?

I still think it makes sense and works together, I bring up stuff from LU and you in his meetings and talk about it, and sometimes bring stuff here. The biggest differences so far is he rarely tells me to engage direct experience as adamantly, and instead really picks apart my story, really specifically on: 1. you can't know anything and can't even know that, 2. you have no control and that's not the same as out of control, and how 3. we only have our interpretation/story because what's actual is unknowable. His focus on those things hasn't really veered for a bit and I find myself processing through content pretty quickly because it's familiar. As far as working, sometimes there's a drop in suffering, often for a couple hours after a meeting or one of your drills, and maybe there's a slight rise in equanimity over time and a small drop in suffering or intensity

Please let me know about this stuff. I might be projecting or making it all up. Let me know.

To clarify, my earlier comments about corner-cutting referred to the writing format, not the drills. For context, my last post was 1150 words. I find the drills genuinely helpful and sometimes fun, even when they uncomfortably cut at identity. Tonights exercisise were a mix of both - some cool insight and some stuff that made me angry at myself or the drill. generally, my frustration is directed entirely at the writing process and the feedback.

I'm struggling to align the instruction to suppress narrative with LU's core purpose of honest, open observation. Hiding my natural narrative / personality feels like faking "no-self" language just to meet rigid expectations. I often intentionally use "I" language because it accurately reflects my current experience and highlights exactly where my "I-ing" and suffering are actively happening. Like, writing this, I’m semi of the I’s floating around, but “I” don’t know any better, so they’re put in for you. Because I don't yet have a no-self perspective, critiquing my writing can sometimes feel like a personal attack.

I want us to use this very frustration as active working material. Exploring this anger today, after i rewrote this a couple times, showed me I hadn't been humanizing the anger. It’s pretty interesting to me to observe how these interactions trigger so much "selfing" in me (maybe even you? idk your end), and I hope we can work directly with the belief in this narrative rather than just trying to write around it or shove it underground.

If I could offer one piece of hard feedback for you to take or leave as you wish: in my experience, other guides will often cut at my story or question it substantially, but they rarely ask me to simply stop telling it. This triggers me a bit and I tend to reinforce selfing. Actual seeing completely stops or gets muddled as best I can tell. If there is a specific method to this approach, I would genuinely appreciate understanding it so I can respect and engage with it more fully. Below is my best attempt to match, so olive branch here.

please pick out at least 2 actual examples. Make it 3.

A.
1. The situation is: there’s a girl I like but I have a girlfriend and things are awkward because I can’t/won’t act on those feelings but can’t totally hide either.
2. It makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.
3. My feeling/interpretion is made of
a. thinking
b. some visual image fragments
c. some mix of physical body sensations, and smell. Hard to tell

B
1. the situation is I can’t figure out how to stop suffering, and I’ve tried everything pretty much.
2. it makes me feel: the situation deosn’t make me feel anything necessarily, but I don’t like the suffering feeling, so I suffer for it.
3. this is made of
1. thinking
2. Vision fragments
3. Some physical sensations
4. **my note** impossibly complex mix of 6 sense. “internal?” vision and some physical body sensation are by far most common, usually those two are mixed I think


C. 1. My girlfriend has a guy best friend she's really close to
1. It makes me feel jealous of him, bitter towards her and m
2. This is made of thinking
3. Visuals
4. Buzzing physical sensations
5. *note** I want to say it's made of nothing else. Like I can't split the 5 senses so cleanly without making more thoughts. Descriptively, it's visual imagery and and some physical sensations. Just my experience.

Do you understand? Tell me how you see (or don't see) this in your own words:

My understanding is along the sharpeshifter lines: the I somehow goes from victim to perpetrator to fixer to helpless all in the same sentence unquestioned. Lots of thoughts about thoughts and gaps in reasoning. Moreover; it seems randomly attached to sensations unnecessary. You could have left it out in some spots with no difference, it just bums a ride. The I takes on whatever sensation is currently in the center of attention and attaches some vague identity. I imagine a lot of the suffering for me is in the illusion of being contradictory things

Just look, count ‘em up, and write down a number. How many “I”s are there, where you are, now?

40+ in 10 minutes. In certain moments it seemed like it was being added to every movement of mind, in other moments hardly there. Where am I now? Feels like a bullshit question. Even saying I don't know isn't totally right but it's closest

For each memory, notice: how many “I”s were there? How many of you were there? Just provide a number.

1. bullying - 2 main I’s or Me’s.
2. self rejection with a girl - 7
3. fun at nebraska park - 3
4. a birthday party in Nebraska - 5
5. playground stuff - 4
6. tonight at beach- 3
7. dance night - 4
8. trampoline incident - 2
9. school day - 2
10. nice memory with girlfrien at pub2

It was relaized that I’ve been collecting almost exclusively shit memories in vivid, somatic detail. everything happy is hard to remember and basically is pleasant story telling. “I’m” reminded of the I as “the baggage” being carried, but “i” don’t know how the I that is being reminded or doesn’t know works.

The big thing I learned, hmmmmmmmm, is that there’s some perceived present I, a bunch of shit from the past coloring everything, and some sort of vague linking between them all into a coherent story or reality. Not really sure how it works, but when it’s not seen as fictional, it’s really uncomfortable.

[jefe2060]

Hi there, I've had an overly full work day she am not finished editing my reply to you, will do mañana.

My two favorite koans are


1
The universe is one bright pearl.

2
Mu.

Back to you tomorrow.

Cheers

J

[jrwever]

Ok Jeff, thank you again no rush.

I think I found the bright pearl one: this is what ai said.

Master Gensa addressed the assembly and said:
"The entire universe in all ten directions is one bright pearl."
A monk stepped forward and asked:
"The entire universe in all ten directions is one bright pearl. How should I understand this?"
Gensa answered:
"The entire universe in all ten directions is one bright pearl. What use is there in understanding?"
The next day, Gensa saw the same monk and asked him:
"The entire universe in all ten directions is one bright pearl. How do you understand this?"
The monk replied:
"The entire universe in all ten directions is one bright pearl. What use is there in understanding?"
Gensa said:
"I see that you are struggling inside the black cave of a demon."

I guess my question is, that's it? I want to ask, what doi do with it, but that's not quite right. I don't really understand it. Mhmmmm. I'll sit with it. Even though it's mostly plain English, it defies the I get it feeling.


Last,
I found a koan i liked: "close both eyes and see the darkness, then close the darkness." Is this appropriate to sit with as well?

Jack

[jefe2060]

I'm not a koan teacher, only an amateur appreciator. Yours is interesting. I'll sit with it myself. The other two just really send me.

That's a problem!

What we will be when we arrive completely (not what's on offer here, we are only after the no separate self distinction - that is just the beginning, I don't pretend to be done with the entire human project) is "no preference, no aversion." That could be another slightly less poetic one, but maybe just as profound.

Love

J

[jefe2060]

To clarify, my earlier comments about corner-cutting referred to the writing format, not the drills. For context, my last post was 1150 words.

I don't actually know what you mean about the writing “format”. You may tell me if you like.

Your answers in the “drills” are usually more succinct, but it’s not about brevity: it's about the level of rumination, back and forth, talking to yourself out loud (in writing). This also comes out in the way you qualify many of the things you say, as we have discussed. It seems on the one hand that you are just trying to be truthful, accurate, and that’s of course commendable. Generally, though, the more words you write in your answers, the harder it is to find you.

It’s a smokescreen that obscures you from you and from everything.

“The biggest differences so far is he rarely tells me to engage direct experience as adamantly, and instead really picks apart my story”

Your use of the word "adamantly" is noted, as are all your protestations. I will address a couple of them below.


He is doing the same thing I am doing. Only a bit differently. The more chaff you throw, the harder it is to see yourself. You seem to be lost in it.

But there’s no way for anyone to be lost. You are only, always, right there, right here, now. Stop running so fast. Be quiet. There you are. Look: your feet are right down there.

Really you don’t even have to do that.

Just notice that thoughts are thoughts, and they happen independently of everything else, and everything else happens independently of them. Just like our narratives.

There we are, sitting comfortably in a chair. But the mind is going! Thinking, thinking…the voice is talking endlessly…talking to ourselves…thinking, thinking…. For example…about walking and walking, day and night, all over the world, never ceasing, never having any peace, never being still, forever. It's like a nightmare. We can't stop walking, and we are tired, hot, and very thirsty. Our feet are blistered. And we are lost, and walking around in circles…we can never reach our destination. It’s hell.

Yet, there we are, the whole time, just sitting on a chair! Completely independent of all that we imagine to be real because we are so lost in thought, in the story.

Thought isn’t a problem until we let ourselves get dragged around as each one automatically magnetizes into the patterns we are so used to that we can't even conceive of the notion that it's just thinking.


The main two patterns being, that of the


1
combined fundamental operating principles we came up with in “self” defence long ago because it was the best we could do, and


2
what happened when all that gets wrapped around the axle of the sense of separation we were already quite well along in learning for the purpose of fitting into a world where materialism (life / consciousness arises from a complexity of “matter”) is the dominant, unexamined paradigm, even though all its really good for is to teach children how not to put on someone else's socks or to run headlong into trees and whatnot. OK, so there are lots of more sophisticated and marvelous uses for it, but when we are existentially miserable and take it out on everything and everyone in between all our brilliance we are going to h@ll on our surfboards.

I will say it again: thought is our collective sacred cow. People are certainly enamored of many of the groovy physical sensations we chase, but thinking is the slavemaster.

Consider: we usually don't give random sounds (that pass by and float in and out of our day while walking around in a city or anyplace where there's some hustle and bustle and we're used to it) the kind of attention we give our random thinking. It's just background. White noise. All just appearing in hearing. But hearing isn't our sacred cow, especially when there's thinking to get absorbed in.

The thoughts will never stop. We will chase them forever, trying to force them into place, to use them to push the bad ones away, to control them and ourselves…if only we could find the right spell!!!

They will never stand still, and they will never be able to define, find, or even slightly approach the permanent, peaceful, content, you.

The tao which can be told is not the Eternal Tao. The name which can be named is not the Eternal Name.

In other words, you can’t eat a menu.

Don't bother to slaughter the cow.

There's plenty of room for her in the pasture, and plenty of grass.

Let her be and she will go do her thing and you can just enjoy some quiet for a change.

“Hiding my natural narrative / personality feels like faking "no-self" language just to meet rigid expectations.”

Ouch.

Not.

I'm rubber, you're glue! ;>)

Nooooo! Don't do any of that! Not on my account, anyway.


Imagine we are sitting down in a mutual friend's home to do a jigsaw puzzle. It's a beautiful summer day, not a cloud in the sky. There's an umbrella stand in the entryway, a good 20 feet from us, behind an inner door. There's also a coatrack there, so, guests and our friend and partner hang coats and jackets and stuff there on entering.

Our friend gets up from the game, goes to the entryway, picks up the umbrella stand, brings it back, sets it down between where you and I are sitting, then sits down and resumes the game without commenting.

2 minutes later, s/he goes to the garage, brings back a lug wrench, and slides it under the table.

The next bizarre action is 10 minutes later. S/he/they run(s) the bath, which eventually spills out onto the floor and starts spreading all over the house.

These shenanigans continue for a good hour (it's a big puzzle). Then, the takeout lunch arrives. Our friend sets the bag down on the floor in the growing puddle, and continues playing.

…

We are attempting to separate your sense faculties and their objects from their mutually shared prior condition. That condition is who you really are. It's who I am, and what everything arises in.

In the story above (which isn't really perfect because I got carried away: it should have all been about the umbrella stand), we're trying to put together a jigsaw puzzle in the midst of a slew of unrelated events, enough to distract even a Zen / koan master (maybe, probably not, but neither of us are one), even though we just went to our friends house to do that one thing.

We both love our friend, but nobody signed up for all that. I mean, actually it sounds marvelous, but not really the best circumstances for getting a puzzle put together, and for those who might get caught up in all the bat$#!+ crazy stuff, it could be very upsetting. You and I play a bit like that too. I get annoyed with your extracurricular activities and try and control you. You get offended and protest against my “rigid expectations.”

Oh well. No master Yoda here. Just another Bozo on the bus. I'm doing my best, just like you. It would be much better if I didn't get triggered by having to wade through your mental machinations, and could just respond with the perfect koan that would suddenly slice through everything and trigger your immediate, full, complete awakening and we could both walk away on water. It would even be fab if I could copy paste all the “right” LU pointers at you to produce the result.

Nobody is suggesting there's anything wrong with your personality, your narrative, or whatever. It's simply irrelevant for this conversation.

See that it's possible for you to leave the umbrella stand in the entryway.

Set it aside.

DON’T SUPPRESS IT.


Nobody is suggesting you suppress it, rigidly or otherwise.

I often intentionally use "I" language because it accurately reflects my current experience and highlights exactly where my "I-ing" and suffering are actively happening. Like, writing this, I’m semi of the I’s floating around, but “I” don’t know any better, so they’re put in for you.

For me? Just for me? Is that a sarcastic jab? I can't quite tell.



No, that's not the point.


When I asked you about all the “I”s, the point wasn't that you use the word, or how many times.

The point is that in each case, the “I” you are referring to seems like a different person, changing with every circumstance.

This is what it's like to be identified with thinking.

When that is the case, we can never find any peace, or rest. We have to keep chasing our shadow, our tail, tilting at windmills, whatevs.

We can never stop, because thoughts don't, and never will.

It's exhausting.

It's the central cause of the dissatisfaction - the suffering - we are all mostly lost in.

We want peace and happiness more than anything, and think we can get there by seeking it through objective experience, with our self-reifying, justifying, scheming, and repetitive thinking leading the way, and taunting us when we don't measure up.

Thought and the other senses are like a treadmill. They never get us anywhere. So we spin our wheels chasing the next idea or bright shiny whatever and exhaust ourselves.

Thinking intentionally, problem solving, and basic navigation in the material world is just fine.

Again, NOBODY wants you to suppress anything, including your personality, narrative…nothing.

Not even your thinking.

There's no problem with thinking, narrative, or personality. Zilch.

The problem is you think you are those things.

“Because I don't yet have a no-self perspective, critiquing my writing can sometimes feel like a personal attack.”

If you feel attacked because you don't yet “have…”, then how can you tell you feel attacked for that reason?


Your writing is fine. I’m not critiquing it. What I’m doing is pointing out the fact that you are not your thoughts, and the more you respond to that pointer with clouds and clouds of thought, the less you are looking at it.

“I'm struggling to align the instruction to suppress narrative”

DUDE.

I am not asking you to SURPRESS ANYTHING.

It's kinda like this.

You are in a building that's on fire.

You have to get out.

You run to the door and grab the doorknob. Just as you twist it and pull it towards you, you hear a loud crash just behind you.

Naturally, it frightens and startles you, and you turn your head quickly to see what made such a terrible sound. You are so absorbed by it that you don't notice that you've pulled the door hard, right at your foot, still holding the knob, and the force of your pull makes the door bounce right off your steel toed shoe and slam shut.

The slam gets your attention, and you look back at it, a little baffled, but you don't really have time to think it over, you just have to get the $#@+& out! So you yank it again.

Just as you do, another crashing sound happens behind you! The ceiling is falling in! A huge beam and chunk of plaster smashes onto the floor a few feet behind you. You are so started by this that you bounce the door closed again off of your foot.

You don't notice that it has anything to do with you, because your attention was elsewhere when it happened.

No matter how hard you try, you just can't get out, because what keeps happening - that you have no choice about whatsoever because that is how your reactivity is configured at that moment - and believe me, I know reactivity - continues to distract you just at the very moment when you need to be paying attention to the spaciousness of what's on the other side of the door.

And on and on.

Yes, it's important that the ceiling is falling in.

It's just kind of irrelevant given the situation.

Your narrative is fine.

Your thoughts are totally fine.

The only question is, do you want out?

(Of course you do. That's just a rhetorical question).

Please take as much of Sunday off from this as you want. Take a breath. We start fresh on Monday. You can reply to any or all of this as you want to, or just let it be. If you really want to work on something, you can look at the "How many 'I's in each of the 3 situations" question again from the perspective I've described here. I hope it's clearer, and sorry for not making it so the first time.

You can also go back to the "Are you aware?" exercise. Damn good one, that. You really don't need any others.

Before you write, be with the various options there might be for answering a question. Are there really more than one or two things that express the truth of what you are trying to say? Do you have to give every answer in terms of the multiple perspectives your mind can come up with about every point you make? I think you would be pleasantly surprised (even if the "pleasant" is coming to the truth of your sadness, anger, frustration, resentment, or fear...at least you will know what the demon is that is nipping at your heel for what it is.

I'm 99.9999% sure it is just a thought and a body sensation anyway.

You are peace, essentially. Be still. Be quiet. And let the silence speak.

Hmmm. Another koan? Maybe I am getting better at this...

Love,

J

[jefe2060]

Sorry,

"I think you would be pleasantly surprised (even if the "pleasant" is coming to the truth of your sadness, anger, frustration, resentment, or fear...at least you will know what the demon is that is nipping at your heel for what it is."

should have been...

I think you would be pleasantly surprised (even if the "pleasant" is coming to the truth of your sadness, anger, frustration, resentment, or fear...at least you will know what the demon is that is nipping at your heel for what it is) to find that a clearer, authentic -- to you! -- voice that REALLY wants to be heard will stand out if you...slow...d..o..w..n and let it happen.

[jrwever]

Hey Jeff,
Thanks for the reply.
Got it on the slow down, and got it on the don't suppress anything.

You may tell me if you like.
I actually don't really know what I meant by that anymore, really it was just word spill. I'm not cutting on any direct observation importantly.

"well. No master Yoda here. Just another Bozo on the bus. I'm doing my best, just like you."
Thanks for this, good reminder that we're both trying, and importantly, you're volunteering and equally human. I kinda figured we were both getting annoyed, so good to know.

"For me? Just for me? Is that a sarcastic jab? I can't quite tell."
Actually no sarcastic jab lol. I seriously add in more I's than necessary when they come up, because they come up; figured it might shed more light than less
"The point is that in each case, the “I” you are referring to seems like a different person, changing with every circumstance"
With that said, I'm pretty confident I understand what you mean by this.


Thanks for addressing the protestations, and let me know if there's anything else you noticed from the drills themselves assigned the other day, otherwise happy to start fresh whenever

[jefe2060]

4/20

Hi Jack!


Please remember to use the quote function when referring to something I said.

Got it on the slow down, and got it on the don't suppress anything.

OK, what do you think I meant by “don’t suppress anything?”


I said: “You may tell me if you like.”


You said:

I actually don't really know what I meant by that anymore, really it was just word spill.

What is “word spill”, and what would motivate you to “spill” words?






I said:
"For me? Just for me? Is that a sarcastic jab? I can't quite tell."


You said:

Actually no sarcastic jab lol. I seriously add in more I's than necessary when they come up, because they come up; figured it might shed more light than less

This really isn't at all necessary. More is less. It obscures things. As you will see, all the excess is just thinking and the belief in the self-entity asserting itself. It's like walking around swinging a big stick in front of you with one hand that gets between you and other people while shooting out smoke from a smoke shooting out machine with the other that makes both you, others, and reality that much harder to distinguish from illusion.


I said:
"The point is that in each case, the “I” you are referring to seems like a different person, changing with every circumstance"

With that said, I'm pretty confident I understand what you mean by this.

OK, please explain it.



You didn’t comment on this:

“There we are, sitting comfortably in a chair. But the mind is going! Thinking, thinking…the voice is talking endlessly…talking to ourselves…thinking, thinking…. For example…about walking and walking, day and night, all over the world, never ceasing, never having any peace, never being still, forever. It's like a nightmare. We can't stop walking, and we are tired, hot, and very thirsty. Our feet are blistered. And we are lost, and walking around in circles…we can never reach our destination. It’s hell.”,


on this:


“Imagine we are sitting down in a mutual friend's home to do a jigsaw puzzle. It's a beautiful summer day, not a cloud in the sky. There's an umbrella stand in the entryway, a good 20 feet from us, behind an inner door. There's also a coatrack there, so, guests and our friend and partner hang coats and jackets and stuff there on entering.”,


…or on this:


“You are in a building that's on fire. You have to get out. You run to the door and grab the doorknob. Just as you twist it and pull it towards you, you hear a loud crash just behind you. Naturally, it frightens and startles you, and you turn your head quickly to see what made such a terrible sound. You are so absorbed by it that you don't notice that you've pulled the door hard, right at your foot, still holding the knob, and the force of your pull makes the door bounce right off your steel toed shoe and slam shut.”



Please tell me in simple terms (not to suppress you, but just so I can most easily follow / understand what you are talking about”) what you understand by each of the illustrations I am making (you don’t have to comment on all 3 at once, the work I am giving you below is really more important, so get to all of them by the end of the week, but I would like to know if you got what I was trying to communicate).


…

“...happy to start fresh whenever”

OK. Lets take it from the top, and get very simple about it.


As you know, not counting “intuition”, or any speculative or otherwise magical senses, there are 6 ways that a human being gathers and “handles” sensory input.

They are:


Thinking
Seeing
Hearing
Tasting
Smelling
Touching


What we are after here is to identify these “sense faculties” in action as distinct from whatever content they happen to be working with.

This is easily accomplished, has the dual purpose of distinguishing the awareness that must also be present during the inquiry if we can notice both content and sense faculties, a step or two away from our ultimate goal: realizing what we are in service of realizing what we are not - one of the two main pathways to “no-self”. One is more direct (Am I aware? What is that?), the other more reductive, classically known as “neti-neti”, or, “not that, not that”, so, “I am not that, or that, or that; what is left?”), but we will attend to that after we get clear about the basics, namely, what the heck is going on?

I am aware that we have discussed this before, but rather than engage in long discussions about the minutiae of thought, all that is necessary is to see thought as thought: in seeing “no-self”, its content is as irrelevant as looking at a brick is to frying an egg successfully.

Please do not take offense at the nature of the conversation taking this turn. It’s not a punishment, or a “downgrade”. We cannot get anywhere if we are continually mincing words, simple is usually better for most things, and this is just fundamental.

Let’s start with Smelling.

There are smells, and there is the capacity to smell, or, the sense of “Smelling.”

These are two different domains: content, and context.

Please let me know if you understand this distinction, and describe it in your own words.


Please take note of the fact that smelling is happening in your daily activities. When you start your day, remind yourself that today is “Smelling” day.

Write “Smelling” at the top of your note pad or e-note. As you go through your day, list:

Whenever you notice that you smell something, write down what you smelled. If you know the smell to be either “content” or “context”, write one of those words down after the listed smell in terms of the exercises’ instructions.


Whenever you notice that “Smelling” is taking place, write down “Smelling”, what was smelled, and whether or not “Smelling” in this particular case is “content” or “context” in terms of the exercises’ instructions.

Please report daily. When it’s clear you have it, we will move to the next sense faculty.


Also:

I want to suggest we get on (at least) one video call. This format can leave a lot out, and misunderstandings are far easier than when looking at someone and speaking / listening live. What do you say?

The call(s) don’t have to be long, 5-15 minutes would probably be fine. Texting / IM’ing when we happen to be free to see if the other is can sometimes be good, as can recorded (voice is fine) messages for communicating in virtual time when timezones are way different.

I’m in CET, so, 6 hours later than EST/EDT: 6 am Eastern is Noon CET.

Best way to get me is on WhatsApp: +31684080991 (also my normal Mobile # for voice & SMS. I just started using Signal as well, that’s on +14132100999. You can also send me plain old SMS free from the US at that “+1” number.

Cheers,

J

[jrwever]

I'll reply to the rest of your message if you still want me to but I really want comment on this from the smelling activity

Smelling
932 smelled some sweet smell (content)

933- smelling took place (context), indiscernible smell (content)

934- smelling happening, context, no clear smell content

937 smelling activated, context, then cool air smell, content

946- smelling context and smell content of kinda sweet orange ish scent of body odor detected simultaneously

Here i noticed that smelling is happening near constantly but content comes and goes rapidly

954- indiscernible smell content came in, then noticed smelling happening context

I’ve started really grappling with the fact that 'smelling' acts as both the context and an object. In a logical sense, the biological channel is just open (context) and smells come in (content). But the second I become aware that smelling is happening, the act of smelling becomes an object of my awareness, too. This is kind of derailing the assignment for me, because trying to neatly separate everything into just two boxes is getting really confusing.

This may be no self insight almost: we assume a true, graspable, defineable, subject but there is only objects of experience. You could note that something is aware of everything, but then awareness of that is happening or comes in soon after, then that, then that, so we're not exactly some awareness thing either, maybe closer to infinite awaring capacity

Like back to your question: what is aware or am I aware ---- mu. You're making a logical assumption of some "thing" or "I" that's aware, when there's no gap. No continuous or King subject. Just constant awaring happening with objects (and the idea of object loses meaning here)

[jefe2060]

Good work.

I'll reply to the rest of your message if you still want me to but I really want comment on this from the smelling activity

Yes, please reply to the rest of my message as I suggested in terms of timing, etc.



You're doing it well.

Please re read the instructions, notice any variance between what I asked you to do from the way you responded, and give it another shot.


As far as your other questions are concerned, right now we're just working on this. Eventually you will just answer all of them yourself. This is extremely simple. No need to complicate it.

Cheers

J

[jrwever]

Hi Jeff, let's call soon. I'll text you on whatsapp tomorrow, gotta get it set up and it's 1 am my time now.

OK, what do you think I meant by “don’t suppress anything?”

I think you meant 2 things: don't hide anything that I think is important just because I think you want it different, but ALSO don't keep writing in narrative just because I like it better just because. Narrative when narrative necessary, follow instructions otherwise. I won't hide or be untruthful or less open, but I won't abuse my keyboard capabilities or your eyes.

What is “word spill”, and what would motivate you to “spill” words?

More word spill in my use of the word "word spill." I'm trying to get out of this question because it's beyond irrelevant for me. Dodging you by spitting out anything. if you look back at the flow to this point, I said I cut corners on formatting. It was purely to save my quality of life in not spending so much time writing responses. No drill was harmed. No insight was lost in that particular singular exchange. Please take my word for it. The ONLY interesting thing I'm willing to talk about on this particular question, is that it's weird I felt compelled to tell you that I had cut corners. There's a subtle need to be a good boy/ rule follower. I almost wonder if this exchange can be so sour because my attempts to be kind/obedient are not enough and I take it issue with it

OK, please explain it.

My understanding is that the I likes to take on different roles which swap violently quickly and often contradict. I looked back at my previous paragraphs where the title "I" went from the thinker, to the one who has thoughts, to being a victim of thoughts, to being the watcher, to being a haver of feeling, to doing feeling, all in the same breath. Each time, there was a new I kinda blending into the sentence structure. The implications of this? I don't yet really know.

Please tell me in simple terms (not to suppress you, but just so I can most easily follow / understand what you are talking about”) what you understand by each of the illustrations I am making (you don’t have to comment on all 3 at once, the work I am giving you below is really more important, so get to all of them by the end of the week, but I would like to know if you got what I was trying to communicate).

The umbrella story. I honestly don't get the point you were trying to make with this one. I tried guessing what it meant, but I think I just need you to explain it to me directly.

The fire story. I think I get this one. I am focusing on all the wrong things. Instead of just getting out of the fire (by directly looking at the suffering?), I am distracted by all the stories I tell myself or tell you—stories about me, about you, and about this whole LU process. You're telling me that overthinking is what actually keeps me stuck in the fire. I honestly don't know how to just stop thinking and get out yet, but I am open to not talking and just listening to your guidance.

The chair story. I think I get this one. Our minds are constantly making up fake worlds and stories about the past, the future, or things that aren't real. We get so lost in these thoughts that we completely ignore what is actually happening right in front of us—like the simple, direct, physical experience of sitting in a chair right now.

Please let me know if you understand this distinction, and describe it in your own words.

AND

Please re read the instructions, notice any variance between what I asked you to do from the way you responded, and give it another shot.

AND

Please do not take offense at the nature of the conversation taking this turn. It’s not a punishment, or a “downgrade”. We cannot get anywhere if we are continually mincing words, simple is usually better for most things, and this is just fundamental.

First, absolutely no problem going back to the basics. Simple is good.

I need to pause, because I am finding it impossible to do the exercise as instructed—at least not without hashing out my understanding first. I want to be clear that I am genuinely not trying to be difficult, complex, or play semantic games; the friction I am hitting feels fundamental to the experience itself.

In my last post, I mentioned that trying to neatly separate everything into categories was getting confusing. I am realizing this is because I cannot actually detect a pure, independent 'capacity' of smelling in my direct experience. Logically and biologically, I understand the premise that the capacity is 'always on.' But in actual practice, I only register that smelling is happening when a smell is actually perceived. If there is no scent present, trying to locate or rest in the 'capacity' immediately collapses into one of two things: it either becomes a conceptual thought about the act of smelling, or I simply feel the tactile, physical sensation of air moving through my nose.

It seems that the capacity to smell and the smell itself co-create each other; any boundary between them is entirely conceptual. In reality, there is only the singular, unified happening of 'smelling-smells.' There is no raw isolated 'smelling' and no isolated 'smells' waiting to be smelled, as far as I'm aware.

The same issue arises when I try to step back and just catch the bare 'knowingness' or 'awareness' of the experience. I might feel like I can rest there for a few seconds, but my mind immediately grabs that 'knowingness' and turns it into just another object I am looking at. It becomes increasingly clear that there is no ultimate subject sitting apart from the objects of experience. It only appears that way until you look closely. It is exactly like an eye trying to turn around and look at itself: the moment you think you have finally caught the eye, you are really just looking at a reflection or a mental image, not the actual, living seeing itself.

Because 'capacity' and 'objects' seem to be nothing more than concepts the mind uses to slice up one seamless experience, I am left with a genuine question. In direct experience, what exactly is the 'capacity of smelling' that isn't just a thought, a physical body sensation, or another subtle object of the mind?