A recent seeker

[gagliano1770]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Through my meditation practice and reading I've heard many instructors refer to this concept but I've never experienced it for myself. Some say that if you truly look for a self, you will realize that nothing is there. But others contend that millions of years of evolution have conditioned us to preserve and perpetrate the self at all costs.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for guidance for this abstract and confusing concept. I've heard that "trying" to have the experience of crossing the gateless gate only pushes it farther away. I would like to see how close I can get to this experience.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have no expectations. If I can talk to someone who has had this experience and honestly express my doubt and bewilderment I would find that valuable. I'm trying to deepen my meditation practice. The people I've heard talk about realizing the no-self have a mindset that I find very attractive

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've had a daily meditation practice for about 15 years. I've read a number of modern books about meditation, mindfulness, and Buddhism. Recently I discovered Stephen Bodian through the Waking Up app. I read his books and listened to a couple of interviews with him. I've considered applying to his School for Awakening, but this website was recommended in the Waking Up community and I thought it would be a good intermediate step.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[Noro]

Hello Gagliano,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.
My name is Rowena and I am happy to be your guide. How would you like to be called?

1. Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

2. Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

and "Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)

6. Please answer all questions individually, not in a bundle, as this will assist us both in having a clear dialogue. Also it is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer as unfortunately this does happen from time to time.

7. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. Here's a video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. And I will do so as well.
What time zone are in? I am in Belgium which is CET
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.


STARTING THE ENQUIRY: EXPECTATIONS

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open. Only fear and expectations can prevent clear seeing of no self.

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?


Warmly,

Rowena

[gagliano1770]

Dear Rowena,

Thank you for getting in touch with me, and for the 2nd, nudging email as well. I'm sorry that I didn't reply to the first message.

My name is Glen and I am on Eastern Daylight Time (GMT - 4). I hope to respond to your initial questions by tomorrow, April 17.

Thank you very much.

Glen

[gagliano1770]

Dear Rowena,

Thank you again for your persistence with me. Here are answers to your questions.

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?
I can only guess based on what others who've had this experience have said. I think I will feel a connection with all things and beings. I will know that I'm not separate from other people.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
I expect a greater feeling of equanimity, peacefulness, and acceptance.

3. What do you want not to happen?
I don't know. I don't feel any fear about this process, perhaps because I doubt that I can cross the gateless gate.

4. What are you hoping for?
An end of seeking for something better. An end of comparing mind. More compassion.

5. What is missing?
Nothing is missing. I imagine that I will have to lose something to have this experience, like mental blocks.

Best wishes,
Glen

[Noro]

Hello Glen,

Thanks for your answers to the five questions.

When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. As I will do below. Here's a video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I can only guess based on what others who've had this experience have said. I think I will feel a connection with all things and beings. I will know that I'm not separate from other people.

This is a totally fair answer based on all the information that has been read or heard. But these expectations, derived from what has been read or heard from others can create a challenge to clearly 'seeing' what is actually happening when we are always making comparisons with what is in our imagination.


HOW TO LOOK FOR THE NO SELF IN THE EXERCISES
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing, and seeing that there is nothing.

If you can’t see for yourself directly, you cannot describe what you see in your own words.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:


COLORED SOCKS
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. Or, you can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here. I will probably give you gentle reminders especially in the beginning to "remember the colored socks."


DIRECT OR ACTUAL EXPERIENCE IS
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling or Sensing (without naming emotion as this is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Cognizing or Thinking (but not thought content which diverts you from the direct experience)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Direct Experience is not conceptual, or made of thought.
Experiencing happens before thought arrives to describe or explain it.
The moment we attempt to communicate experience we introduce concepts. We then respond or identify with those concepts. Then that experience of responding gives birth to more stories (concepts) to which we respond and so on…


DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF DAILY ACTIVITIES

Here's an exercise that I would like you to bring in as a practice throughout the day.
Label daily activities as simply visual, (color/image), sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought or thinking.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of the experiencing of a cup of coffee

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thinking about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above. The point is to learn the difference between Actual / Direct Experience and the content of thought, which we made up.

Please post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above using the same word forms of your direct experiencing.

Warmly,

Rowena

[gagliano1770]

Dear Rowena,

I'm sorry I didn't write sooner. The link to the forum in the email I received didn't work.

When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers.

Sorry about that. I'll do so from now on.

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I've got it.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to bring in as a practice throughout the day.
Label daily activities as simply visual, (color/image), sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought or thinking.

Ok, here is are my responses from going to the gym to lift weights:

Seeing the dumbbells on the rack, simply = color/image
Thinking about getting a free bench, simply = thought
Picking up the weights, simply = sensation
Noticing when my muscles get fatigued, simply = feeling or sensing
Hearing the music playing over the speakers, simply = hearing

And here is another list from walking my dog:

Seeing the constantly changing view of buildings, people, and trees, simply = color/image
Hearing traffic, car horns, ambulance sirens, snatches of conversation, simply = hearing
Feeling the cold air on my face, simply = feeling
Noticing that the trees are starting to flower, simply = color/image
Smelling the fresh air, simply = smelling
Thinking about Spring approaching, simply = thinking

Thank you for your help, Rowena. I look forward to hearing from you again.
Glen

[Noro]

Hello Glen,

The email link to the forum seems to direct to sign in, and then what I often find I have to do is then return to the email and press the link again and I am then directed to the last reply on the post. I hope that helps. Also, once again, because there is so much activity and internet 'bots', sometimes it is a bit of a slow process.

Great to see you are getting the hang of simply noticing what is arising without mental interpretation.

MIND LABEL EXPERIENCE
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots.
For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.
I am thinking.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Now, for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
hearing clock ticking
looking at computer screen
feeling hungry
thinking

Finally, try the two together, first say with "I am" and next without: I am walking / walking

Pay attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body.

What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….." ?
What is the body sensation without the add-on of "I am…."?

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Does one feel truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?


Warmly,

Rowena

[gagliano1770]

Dear Rowena,
Here are my responses:

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

I am looking at my notebook.
I am sitting.
I feel scratchiness in my throat.
I see my glasses on the table.
I am hearing my wife talking in the next room.
I am feeling tingling in my legs.

Now, for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

Looking at my notebook,
sitting,
feeling scratchiness in my throat,
seeing my glasses on the table,
hearing my wife talking in the next room,
feeling tingling in my legs.

Finally, try the two together, first say with "I am" and next without: I am walking / walking

Pay attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body.

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Does one feel truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The statements without “I am” feel truer, but I don’t know why.

2. What is here without labels?

Just experiences.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

I was going to say that the labels affect the experience, but on further thought, the labels affect my attitude towards the experience.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

The energy in my body feels calmer when I don’t use “I am,” though it is very sublte.

Thank you for your help,
Glen

[Noro]

Hello Glen,

1. Does one feel truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The statements without “I am” feel truer, but I don’t know why.

Its great you had this 'felt' sense, and while its not necessary to know why, in #4 you wrote:

The energy in my body feels calmer when I don’t use “I am,” though it is very sublte.

That's all you the evidence you need! :)

2. What is here without labels?

Just experiences.

Yes!

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

I was going to say that the labels affect the experience, but on further thought, the labels affect my attitude towards the experience.

We will be doing plenty of looking into how labels, internal dialogue, interpretations etc. appears to affect our attitude towards experience.


Here's an exercise that will build on to that felt sense of 'truer'.

HOW TO DISTINGUISH TRUTH FROM A LIE

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes, there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you might have been grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you 'lied', "I'm fine."

In conventional or consensus reality we are not going to be airing everything that is going on in our lives, but it is important that we become aware of our inner state of body sensations. While the body sensations are true, meaning that our direct experience of them is real, the way we interpret them can be misleading.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled, and this last point is the most important.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies can be felt in the upper body, often in the heart, solar plexus or arms, as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.
What you felt in the exercise above.


First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what body sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body sensations (not interpretations) you felt. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

Also FYI "Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body sensation, not the sensation itself.

Do you see that?

Do you see the difference between Actual Sensation & the thought interpretation of Sensation?
Interpretation is always an overlay of thought connected to a direct experience of body sensation.

Let me know how you get on with this.

Warmly,

Rowena