Obsessive seeker seeking unemplyment

[pierre]

I have been an obsessive seeker for 30 years. Much of this has been driven by fear and a constant underlying movement towards wanting to experience perpetual peace. The stress resulting from this constant uneasiness has resulted in problems with my health which only stimulated more seeking to try to resolve the unpredictable symptoms.
Having said that, I have been diving into nondual teachings the past few years and found your sight a few weeks ago.
I have been more focused on direct experience, looking for the self, looking beyond the fear and relaxing into life as it is. A freedom has emerged as I've seen through the many ways that I attempted to protect and build up a self that doesn't exist.
I want to see through all of it, and no longer be pulled into identification with any physical symptom, thought or sensation. I need your help to unmask any remaining beliefs/expectations that are still operating. Thanks!

[vinceschubert]

Hi Pierre, you have come to the 3 on 1 forum so this can get pretty intense with 3 guides all firing questions at you.
A commitment to post at least once per day (where possible) and to stay with this until done is good.
You started with a good intro and it would seem that you have at least an intellectual understanding of 'no self'

I've seen through the many ways that I attempted to protect and build up a self that doesn't exist.

Tell how self is "built up" ?
How does self work ?

[pierre]

Being an "obsessive seeker" allows me to post every day! lol
How is the self built up?
Self is built up through an identification with thought/beliefs. "I" then base my identitiy, worth on how well I perform or don't perform. I do this by simultaneously judging outward circumstances and internal experience to a "me". Self is sustained and feeds upon a constant judgement for or against whats appearing inside or outside. In reality, the outside is just a projection of internal self perception.
In simple terms; Self is the "person"alizing of any thoughts, emotions, or sensations that arise. It's anything thats personalized then applied to a belief in a "me" or sustaining a "me".

[pierre]

I just realized that the only way emotions or sensations can be "personalized" is through believing /identifying with THOUGHT. They are just undefined energy without thinking their mine. So I guess self is believing I am a person......and therefore personalizing anything.

[vinceschubert]

Pierre,
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this?

3) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

[pierre]

When my mind is quiet there doesnt appear to be a me. Obviously, when I am trying to change my experience the me seems more prevelant. I can see through most thoughts and emotions, but when I experience long term sensations/limitations in the body it seems personal and I think there is an underlying belief that i could influence this as well as a concern that it will never change unless I do.
Part of "me" wants to believe that I have some influence over choice.....to accept or reject something. Perhaps its as little as believing there is an "i" that can be aware of self a self or relax that focus and be aware of nothing/no self. Did I not choose to focus or relax focus? Is there not a me that sees this or doesn't see this in any given moment. I definately experience a greater freedom when I dont believe in a self but these questions above still bubble up.
Thanks for the help.

[Cam-RT]

First of all Vince asked you some questions...Answer them!!

Give us answers that you feel are 100% TRUE...Be precise.

I can see through most thoughts and emotions, but when I experience long term sensations/limitations in the body it seems personal and I think there is an underlying belief that i could influence this as well as a concern that it will never change unless I do.

As long as the Self is present (in your mind.) and you are physically connected to all these thoughts (phantoms and illusions) the body is sure to react, the body doesn't lie. If it believes that there is some sort of threat it will react...
Trace these feelings back to their source...Then LOOK!! ...Then ask yourself "is this true in real life??"

But what's BEHIND all these thoughts??

What's driving these thoughts?? COME ON MAN LOOK!!!

Part of "me" wants to believe that I have some influence over choice.....to accept or reject something. Perhaps its as little as believing there is an "i" that can be aware of self a self or relax that focus and be aware of nothing/no self.

Beliefs and opinions are unfounded and have no place in this "Work"

Everything we know, no matter how sure we are, is really just Belief, and ALL beliefs are self limiting, and serve to reduce the truly infinite to falsely finite...

[pierre]

1) Is there a me at all?
Right now, thoughts and sensations are happening to a me that is exhausted and perplexed.I cant seem to see through it right now. What was clear a few days ago when I saw the absence of a self now seems distant. Perhaps due to the extreme fatigue Im presently experiencing.... I feel like ive been up for 24 hrs. Anyway, I am goin to get some rest and then look for whats behind or driving these thoughts.

[pierre]

Got some needed rest. Whats driving these thoughts?
Fear that this will never change, that my body is so unpredictable. there is an expectation that these physical symptoms should'nt be here, a resistance and an attempt to control then through thought. The mind compares the freedom experienced before and sees this as limiting.
In reality, its a familiar story that presents itself when I feel lousy. There is nothing behind it other than believed thoughts glued together with emotions/sensations. Instead of the present experience of life, it becomes "my" experience of life. So my entire past is a story made up of believed thought and judgements about a me that doesn't exist. Fear seems to be driven by wanting control or believing I have control.

[Cam-RT]

Good evening pierre...

Whats driving these thoughts?.....Fear that this will never change, that my body is so unpredictable.

Fear itself is not to be feared, It's a Mechanism. Working perfectly as a security system. It's protecting something from being found out...

When you look, just let it be here... Find out where in the body it is being felt, then bring it closer, invite it to share in it's wisdom...It's fine to just let it be...Respect it...Bow to it...Then look what's behind the fear.

I Too have to deal with the daily challenge and unpredictability of Chrones disease, yet this this doesn't define who I really am. Yes, we deal with physical pain on a daily basis, yet being held "mentally hostage" by the ailments of the body, has NOTHING to do with liberation....YOU ARE NOT ANY OF THIS.

There is nothing behind it<-------other than believed thoughts glued together with emotions/sensations.

I broke this sentence in half to show you, the first part BAMM!!! You hit the bullseye, the rest is just CRAP!!
Come on Dump the thoughts and just GO INTO THE NOTHING...GO THERE!!!..... That's who you ARE!! ;^) LOOK!!

Fear seems to be driven by wanting control or believing I have control.

Pierre, straight up YOU ARE NOT in Control, You own NOTHING!!, Your body is temporarily supporting this ride here on this rock we call earth...just LET GO of all these thoughts...

"Thoughts are empty projections of "The Self"...Their objective is to "Occupy" us not to defeat us..."

[pierre]

I can see that fear as at the root of the illusion of a self.
- the foundation and glue that motivates one to focus on a self for fear of losing the self.
- it sustains the illusion through concern about the illusion
- its ironic that this loss is impossible since there isnt a self to begin with
- This fear that appears to need adressing to protect the self from life is itself the gateway to realizing the absence of a self when its pull is seen through as empty and fictitious.
- Nothing can happen to a ME that doesn't exist, and the only way a ME exists in my mind is through the misconception that something bad could happen to it. Life as it is will happen, but it will not happen to a ME
- it's sole purpose is to keep me believing that something must be done for "my survival"

I see that without its drive there is no self, there is only life and I cant control life. There is nothing to control because there is no "I" to control it.

[Cam-RT]

I can see that fear as at the root of the illusion of a self.

The only way fear can fulfill this is you actually believeing it...Belief's are one of the major hurdles seeing through the illusion of Self...

Not believeing in Harry Potter, doesn't make the book disappear from the book self right?... Yet you know this is fictitious in it's written form...

There is no "you" in real life...

It sustains the illusion through concern about the illusion

No, it sustains itself by your continued belief that in fact that it exists in real life...

- This fear that appears to need adressing to protect the self from life is itself the gateway to realizing the absence of a self when its pull is seen through as empty and fictitious.

A bit convoluted, but yes...fear is a distraction and a bluff, to keep you from looking.

- Nothing can happen to a ME that doesn't exist, and the only way a ME exists in my mind is through the misconception that something bad could happen to it. Life as it is will happen, but it will not happen to a ME

Pierre, THIS IS IMPORTANT...The me that "doesn't exist" in your mind, is a world wide dysfunction, of the way the mind perceives life around each individual...LIFE DOES HAPPEN AND WILL HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE. When you're crossing the street those cars and buses ARE REAL...DON'T step out in front of it!!!

it's sole purpose is to keep me believing that something must be done for "my survival"

Believe it or not.. The Ego or "character" is the "built in" instinct for survival...Still just thoughts but are generally referred to for the body's survival in day to day life...Like that thought that say's "Don't step in front of that bus or Don't jump off a cliff" ;^)

I see that without its drive there is no self, there is only life and I cant control life. There is nothing to control because there is no "I" to control it.

BAMM!!! You nailed it!.... We are not saying to eliminate it from your mind...just see it for what "IT IS" AN ILLUSION....So do you EXIST??

[pierre]

Thanks for your help!
It seems that I lost the simple seeing of no self and was back on the merry go round of trying to figure it out, trying to change my experience, looking over past insights etc... so tired of the desperate bullshit that repeats itself over and over. I think I just wear the seeking energy out and eventually come back to direct experience .

Go directly into experience:
- is it saying anything, judging, trying to control etc... NO! The mind is doing that
- Just be here .. now.. and look behind all the chatter, thoughts that self relate
- Sit in this immediate experience without beliefs, MOTIVES, EXPECTATIONS or any other bullshit the mind comes up with
- Let any sense of self which only appears through identification with thought fall away. Lose control and let concern for an illusionary self fall off the cliff into nothingness.
- Look.... there is no one here or no one needed to manage or control this....
- Thinking perpetuates the myth....looking below reveals NOTHING! I have been looking for something, some revelation etc.. but there is just nothing, a background, a blank quiet slate on which things appear. Just this.

[Cam-RT]

Good morning Pierre...

looking below reveals NOTHING! I have been looking for something, some revelation etc.. but there is just nothing, a background, a blank quiet slate on which things appear. Just this.

Looking good!!

So tell me...Do YOU Exist??

[pierre]

Do I exist?

Sometimes there is a quiet mind that relaxes and doesn't see a ME, primarily because I am not thinking about a me and there is a level of contentedness in this experience. But, there is also the experience of being self focused and a level of doubt about the certainty of no self. Its like it comes and goes.

I am somewhat confused as to what exactly I should be doing. It seems like the more I Look for a self the more I am conscious of "my struggle to see beyond or behind" the self. What do you mean when you say to look behind/beyond/below? Is that to look for where something arises from? I have been frustrated, or my mind has, as if I can't see it. I also see some doubt, will I ever see this without losing the knowing of it.

I was in the practice of dropping thought when it would arise but know seem more engaged in thought looking for a self. HELP