Wanting to liberate

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lchiles
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Wanting to liberate

Postby lchiles » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:32 am

Hello,

I have posted a couple of entries for a guilde to respond to. I haven't received a response yet and was wondering if someone could respond. I would really like to work with someone.

I would be very grateful for a response.

Warmly,
Lisa

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cosmiK
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:06 am

Hey Lisa,
thanks for your patience :)

I will be your guide.

As long as you agree to post at least every day, agree to investigate and answer from your direct experience here & now, agree to be 110% honest, agree to answer all questions posed, and learn to use the quote function, we are good to go :)

It seems from your previous post that you are ready to be done with this. I suggest you use all of that energy for this investigation. Put aside all teachings, videos, books, and put all of it in this. If you have a daily meditative practice, it's fine to continue that.

How to use the quote function found here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

1) What are your Expectations from this process, and from Liberation?

Let's do this shall we?
Love.

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lchiles
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby lchiles » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:31 pm

My expectations are relief from the identification with thoughts by allowing them to arise and not attach to them and to live the direct experience of life without my thoughts coming in and gaining so much control.

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cosmiK
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:46 pm

Hey Lisa,

Thanks for that.

The relationship with thoughts definitely does change after Awakening from the separate self, regardless, drop any Expectations that you may, including what you have mentioned. Expectations are only ever attachments to an imagined future and self, based on past conditioning, and as such will NOT serve you. Put all focus in this process.
My expectations are relief from the identification with thoughts by allowing them to arise and not attach to them and to live the direct experience of life without my thoughts coming in and gaining so much control.
Where is this self that can allow thoughts to arise, attach or not attach to them, and live direct experience?

How do thoughts 'gain so much control'?

Is there a separate self anywhere here & now?
Point to it, and write out what you find with respect to present moment experience.

For this process, let your writing refer to your present moment experience with no analysis/speculation.

Love.

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lchiles
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby lchiles » Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:23 am

Hi Cosmik,

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lchiles
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby lchiles » Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:36 am

Hi Cosmik,
Where is this self that can allow thoughts to arise, attach or not attach to them, and live direct experience?
Not sure! There is just a bunch of thoughts arising that seem believable. Some are fearful and create an emotional reaction. When I see the world through my thoughts, they distort everything. When I allow them to arise and fall, no problem. Some very sticky thoughts arise.
How do thoughts 'gain so much control'?
Good question! They have a long history of arising and the belief that they are believable. believing that they are believable makes them sticky!
Is there a separate self anywhere here & now? Point to it, and write out what you find with respect to present moment experience.
Still have the belief in the separate self. However, my present moment experience is typing words, listening to traffic, sitting in a chair, emotions arising, full feeling in my belly, daughter drying her hair and hearing hair dryer, thoughts about wanting to answer correctly arise and fall! Awareness is present.

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cosmiK
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby cosmiK » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:17 am

Hey Lisa,

thanks for the responses :)

I'm going to introduce a way for us to break down experience in a way that we can both relate to, as we are having this 'human experience'. We can agree that grass is green, honey is sweet, and soon that there is no separate self:) This will also be a tool for you to break down any experience... especially assumptions about it.

In Experience, there is just this Experience.
1) thoughts
2) sensations x5 (seeing, hearing, smelling, feeling [tactile+kinesthetic], tasting)
3) presence/being (an unmistakable sense of aliveness)


We can break down Exp. in this way. So go ahead and test this out thoroughly in several activities throughout your day, and get back to me to CONFIRM that this is indeed the basic building blocks of your experience as well.

-------

Try these exercise:

Close eyes. Watch thoughts come and go:
- Is there a Thinker of thoughts? If yes, find it in your experience and describe it.
- Can YOU think and choose a thought? If yes, find the chooser in your experience.

------
Still have the belief in the separate self. However, my present moment experience is typing words, listening to traffic, sitting in a chair, emotions arising, full feeling in my belly, daughter drying her hair and hearing hair dryer, thoughts about wanting to answer correctly arise and fall! Awareness is present.
beLIEfs beliefs... the belief in a separate self can be around even after seeing no-self...

If this is your belief, you have to test it out ruthlessly in your present moment experience. LOOK for this self. Is there a typer? Is there a listener? Is there a sitter? do emotions arise to anyone or anything? if it is 'your' belly, then where is the claimant? find her!? what hears hair dryers? what is it that is aware of thoughts? This is the essence of your work. I can guide you to LOOK, but only you can SEE.

If your answer to the above is "Awareness", as indicated by your last sentence "Awareness is present"... I want you to CHECK if this Awareness is inherently separate from thoughts, sensations, & sense of being? Also is this Awareness personal... is it You or I? If it is... where is that self? where is that claimant?

Look forward to your next response :)

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lchiles
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby lchiles » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:47 pm

We can break down Exp. in this way. So go ahead and test this out thoroughly in several activities throughout your day, and get back to me to CONFIRM that this is indeed the basic building blocks of your experience as well.
Yes, this is my experience throughout the day. And, I have thoughts that think they can make my life better for me. This is when my mind tries to figure out my life. It's exhausting! This is when the beLIEf of the separate self kicks in.

Try these exercise:

Close eyes. Watch thoughts come and go:
- Is there a Thinker of thoughts? If yes, find it in your experience and describe it.
- Can YOU think and choose a thought? If yes, find the chooser in your experience.
There is definitely not a thinker, and thoughts just arise. I definitely cannot choose a thought. The scary ones seem to be real and grab my attention, however.
beLIEfs beliefs... the belief in a separate self can be around even after seeing no-self...

If this is your belief, you have to test it out ruthlessly in your present moment experience. LOOK for this self. Is there a typer? Is there a listener? Is there a sitter? do emotions arise to anyone or anything? if it is 'your' belly, then where is the claimant? find her!? what hears hair dryers? what is it that is aware of thoughts? This is the essence of your work. I can guide you to LOOK, but only you can SEE.
There is no one. When I look, there is this space that allows everything to rise and fall.

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cosmiK
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby cosmiK » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:52 am

Hey Lisa,
Yes, this is my experience throughout the day. And, I have thoughts that think they can make my life better for me. This is when my mind tries to figure out my life. It's exhausting! This is when the beLIEf of the separate self kicks in.
Your experience? Where is the me?

You have thoughts? Where is the You?

Your life? Where is this phantom claimant?

What mind? Sometimes 'mind' refers to a stream of thoughts, and maybe some sensations that we label "head". Is there a 'mind' that 'figures out life' or just some thoughts and sensations?

Who gets exausted?

thoughts arise, including the thoughts of a separate self... regardless of any thought that arise... is there a separate self?

LOOK DEEPLY Lisa. Turn the entire universe upside-fucking-down and find this 'self'. LOOK, LOOK, & LOOK again.
LOOK @ Every THOUGHT. Is that "I"?
LOOK @ Every Sensation. Is that You?
LOOK @ that sense of aliveness. Is that self?
There is definitely not a thinker, and thoughts just arise. I definitely cannot choose a thought. The scary ones seem to be real and grab my attention, however.
No. Thoughts arise. sensations shift. It's a wonderful flow. It may 'seem' like thoughts are choosen, but that is really just another thought.

Are there 'scary thoughts' Lisa? or just thoughts, and maybe some sensations that maybe collectively labelled 'fearful thoughts'.

Whose attention do thoughts grab?

Are thoughts ever real?

When you have a thought "bottle"... is that a bottle?
When you point your finger to the moon... is your finger the moon?

LOOK RIGHT AT Fear... is there anything behind it? Thank any fear or anxiety for doing it's job. Tell it you appreciate it, but that it's time to Wake up. There is nothing to protect. There is just Life.
There is no one. When I look, there is this space that allows everything to rise and fall.
Is it possible that it is all just happening... with no separate self? with no separate doer? with no separate angent? is it possible that nothing is personal because there is no claimant? TEST it out until there are no doubts. Turn every second upside down and look and see if there is a You, a me, a self.

Look forward to your next response,

with Love.

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lchiles
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby lchiles » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:41 pm

HI Cosmik,

Thanks for your response. I will look DEEPLY into this separate self and respond. Thank you for being relentless.

Love,
Lisa

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lchiles
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby lchiles » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:14 pm

HI Cosmik,

How do I look deeply without using the mind?

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cosmiK
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby cosmiK » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:22 pm

Lisa,

I'm on the road now cannot write at length, but a good way to look at this is that, there is just Experiencing, here and now. Experience can be skilfully divided in to those 3 aspects, as we have both tested and confirmed.

Thoughts

Sensations x 5

Presence (unmistakable sense of aliveness)

(Review previous posts for this).

Simply notice. experience is happening.

-

Here are a few exercises:

get up... Walk slowly... notice
- are You walking?
- or is walking just happening.

move arms slowly... Up and down... Notice
- is there a controller moving the hand?
- or is the hand just moving?

do any activity... Notice
- is there a You/agent/self/I/me/tooth fairy doing or controlling anything?
- or is it simply just happening?

Notice... There is an experience... An appearance... A happening... Then a thought comes along and may say "I see it" or "i am doing it" or "I am experiencing".
Happening happens... Then a thought labels it, claims it.
Is there a claimant?mor is just a thought.

pick some objects near and far... Look at them... Notice
- is there a seer and seen?
- or is there ONlY the seen?

feel feelings... Notice
- is there a feeler of feelings (tactile + kinaesthetic)?
- or are there just feelings... Just those sensations... Maybe followed by a thought "I am the feeler"

pick a song... A favourite song... Notice
- is there a separate me or you listening?
- or is there JUST that sound, that symphony?


Lisa.... Does seeing need a seer? Does feeling need a feeler?

Notice... Does perception need a perceive-er?

Could it be that there is ONLY perception... Including the perception of a separate perceive-er?
Could it be that there is ONLy Experience... Including the experience of a separate experience-er?
Could it be there is just this...

There is a seamless flow of sensations, thoughts, being... Part of it may be labelled "body" "world" "pc" "window" "sky" ... And even worse... "Me" and "self" and this is actually believed to be something separate!!!

Can you see that there is a simplicity, and then thoughts arise and label and separate? Thoughts are not bad... But when we beLIEve them... And do so for our entire life, There is separation. There is a phantom entity created moment to moment, and it is called You. Simply notice... There is no such thing or things.. There is just Experience :)


Spend a day contemplating this and experiencing this deeply, then write back and respond to all my questions, and tell me where you are at?

Really look deeply... Is there a separate self or experiencer or perceiveR? Of is there just that Experience... Just that Perception... Just Life with no separation. If any assumptions arise... Break it down in to simplicity. Before thought there is a simplicity inexpressible... After thought there is a world with stuff and someone at the centre... But yet there is always that simplicity even with thought. There is never separation anywhere. CHECK CHECK AND CHECK AGAIN.

Talk soon, with Love.

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lchiles
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby lchiles » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:36 pm

Hi Cosmik,

Thank you for your response. I keep looking for the self and will continue to look. I am going out of town for the next 12 days and my access to the computer will be very limited so I will not be able to post every day. It may be every 2-3 days. I appreciate your guidance.

Love,
Lisa

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cosmiK
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby cosmiK » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:31 pm

Hi Lisa,

Happy travelling. We've covered a lot of ground in a short time, so review our correspondence, and try out my exercises, and continue your investigation. When i was in this process, I did it almost 24/7... All depends on how badly freedom is desired, and how tired one is with the bullshit and living from a lie. Look forward to your response.

With Love.

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lchiles
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Re: Wanting to liberate

Postby lchiles » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:40 pm

Hi Cosmik,

"I" doooooo want to liberate. I will continue to investigate. I am committed.

Love,
Lisa


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