Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

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cosmiK
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Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:38 pm

Jump on in! :)

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:33 pm

Hello - I'm here. How to begin?

Thanks,

Peggy

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:45 pm

Hello (anyone?)

i'm interested in having 'realization of absence of a separate self'. But I'm 64 yrs old.
Age is irrelevant. Your desire to investigate your moment to moment experience IS. Your unwavering dedication to SEEING the Truth directly IS.

I've experienced a few moments of peaceful bliss & 'presence', here & there in my life, but nothing lasting.
Those moments are wonderful, yet all experiences come and go, and none of them are permanent. This process about is seeing through the core delusion, that there is a separate self.
What especially brings me here now, is that I'm beginning to experience several alarming, physical signs of disability & aging which are disconcerting. & i would like to go through the 'gate' *before* i go through physical death, & wondering if its even possible at my age & state of beingness?

Thanks,

Peggy
As long as you realize that this process is not a substitute for any medical or psychological therapies, then we can definitely guide you through the 'gate'.

It is possible, in fact, it is already the case, you just don't realize it.

Begin by telling us what your expectations for Awakening are? Please be honest and direct.

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:22 pm

Hello, I'm not even sure what expectations I have. I listened to one of the YouTube LU Enlightening quotes video yesterday. (The one on "expectations".) I understood what it was saying "intellectually" but not really experientally. I recently retired from work, and I'm spending a lot of time by myself right now. and I'm at a time in my life where my kids are grown and gone and don't need me. And my husband doesn't even "need" me much anymore. So I'm seeing how much of a "self" I had invested in being a "mother", "wife", etc. And now I am feeling very 'unimportant' and 'lost" with no purpose and seeing my body aging and knowing that I'm nearing the end of a normal life-span. I can look back at the last 64 years of my life and see how fast it seemed to have whizzed by, so it's kinda' scary. I hope this doesn't sound maudlin or depressing, because I'm not depressed, and I haven't been given any terminal diagnosis, or anything life that. I suppose I'm simply at a point where I'm letting go of things, and it feels like a kind of "death" and I'm unable to look forward to much, or make any "exciting" plans, so it's feels empty and disconcerting. It feels like I'm being forced to LOOK at how this SELF that I've created certainly doesn't exist anymore, (never really did?) and part of me wants to create another SELF, but I realize I shouldn't or can't do that. I'm mainly in a lot of fear and some sadness too. To finally answer your question... The expectations I have from this group, is: I want support to finish this process of seeing through and lettng go of the "self", and not try to creat another one, and be happy about it? I s that possible?

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:45 pm

Hey Peggy,

thanks for your honest and earnest answer.

Simply put, Expectations are attachments to an imagined future and self. They won't serve you and will get in the way of this process. Drop them when noticed, and then drop them again. That being said, it doesn't seem as if you're expectations are very far off. We will and can certainly help you see through the facade of a self, guaranteed you are willing to look directly in to your simple moment to moment here and now Experience.

When you look back in to part of your life, you use memories, which are thoughts. they are also made seemingly vivid by sensations in the body and affective feelings that arise. that is fine. but do you see clearly that is only an experience in the moment, right here, right now?

If feelings such as sadness and fear come up, let them, and feel them fully. if fear and sadness arise specifically out of this process, then it may be because of the fact that the so-long-believed-in self is being challenged. the assumption held as the central point in life is finally being challenged. sadness may arise because it feels as if something is being lost, and fear may arise because it feels it needs to protect something. nothing real can be lost, and an illusion doesn't need protection because it isn't there. I can see that you are Ready to really devote yourself to seeing through the illusion, and that 1-pointed focus will see you through.

So, come back to the present moment, right here, right now.
- Where is this self?

- What is this "I" or "me" and what does it point to?

- Is "Peggy" anything more than a thought?


Please answer all questions from your Direct Experience.

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:33 am

- Where is this self?

It feels like it resides in my physical body -but mainly in my head/brain/ mind. But when I try to pinpoint exactly, I can't find it.

- What is this "I" or "me" and what does it point to?

"I" points to unique beingness of 'Peggy' - or the total package of body, personality, feelings, instincts, intuition, sensory, bodily sensations, & thoughts. "I" points to The Totality of all this, but can point to any one part as well.

- Is "Peggy" anything more than a thought?

'Thought' creates Idea of "peggy". Or "Peggy" is label thought uses to point to self or parts of self. I'm getting confused now :)

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:39 am

Hey Peggy,

thanks for your answers.
It feels like it resides in my physical body -but mainly in my head/brain/ mind. But when I try to pinpoint exactly, I can't find it.
Whenever you say my body, my head, my brain... look and see if you can find the claimant. if it is indeed 'yours'... then find the 'you' as well :) This is a huge part of the process... looking to see if there is an actual claimant.
"I" points to unique beingness of 'Peggy' - or the total package of body, personality, feelings, instincts, intuition, sensory, bodily sensations, & thoughts. "I" points to The Totality of all this, but can point to any one part as well.
Right... "I" is really a pointer... really just a THOUGHT. "I" is a thought, and "You" are a thought, and "me" is a thought".
'Thought' creates Idea of "peggy". Or "Peggy" is label thought uses to point to self or parts of self. I'm getting confused now :)
hmm... isn't "self" a thought as well, that points to specific aspects of experience?
and it's good you are confused! Hurray! But... stay with me.

Anyway... let's get down to some serious investigation here that will help you SEE directly this illusion.

So i'm going to introduce a way we can break down any Experience. Since we're both having a 'human experience', we can agree that grass is green, honey is sweet, and soon that there is no self, at all, anywhere. Experience, as in, what is being Experienced in the present moment, Here & Now, can be broken down in to 3 main categories (which are not necessarily separate, but we can break them down in this skillful way, as they are sort of building blocks to experience):
1) thoughts
2) sensations x5 (seeing, hearing, smelling, feeling [tactile+kinesthetic], tasting)
3) presence/being (an unmistakable sense of aliveness)

Go ahead and thoroughly check in your present moment Experience by doing some various activities such as walking, touching a pet, drinking tea, watching tv, sitting, breathing. Confirm for me that there is ONLY these components in your Experience as well, then we can proceed.


I'll await your confirmation and we can continue.

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:48 am

"Whenever you say my body, my head, my brain... look and see if you can find the claimant. if it is indeed 'yours'... then find the 'you' as well :) This is a huge part of the process... looking to see if there is an actual claimant."

Wow!!! When I read the above, there was like a jolt of electricity that surged through me - it thoroughly stunned me & i was forced into a place of absolute stillness or quietness for a few moments. Thank you...

(I will do the next processes you suggested, I just wanted to send that comment first.)

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:11 pm

Hello Cosmik,

I am ready to answer your inquiry, but I have a question about the 'three main categories of experiences - experienced in the present moment':

"1) thoughts
2) sensations x5 (seeing, hearing, smelling, feeling [tactile+kinesthetic], tasting)
3) presence/being (an unmistakable sense of aliveness)"

Which category would you say emotions are in, i.e. anger, sadness? Since they are feelings, would you say they are in the 'sensations' category? Or, a combination of "1) thoughts" and "2) sensations"?

If so, then I DO agreee that there is ONLY these components in my Experience as well. (Although regretfully I'm realizing that "presence" , or "sense of alivesness", is least experienced of the three - for me.)

Regards,

Peggy

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:59 pm

Hey Peggy,
Wow!!! When I read the above, there was like a jolt of electricity that surged through me - it thoroughly stunned me & i was forced into a place of absolute stillness or quietness for a few moments. Thank you...
Good. Always take the inquiry in to the simple present moment experience. This will be the bread and butter of this entire inquiry, as well as even after Awakening.
Which category would you say emotions are in, i.e. anger, sadness? Since they are feelings, would you say they are in the 'sensations' category? Or, a combination of "1) thoughts" and "2) sensations"?
You are already applying this simple breaking down of Experience in to components - Awesome! I would say Yes... a thought comes along and says 'feeling sad'... but dropping the thought we see it is just more sensations, usually of a feeling base (tactile+kinesthetic). Sometimes a thought may come and say "life sucks" and then there will arise a sensation that is labelled a "negative emotion". Regardless Peggy... we are not denying emotions, we are just breaking it down in to simple components. When emotions arise, they arise, feel it and welcome it, and thank it.
If so, then I DO agreee that there is ONLY these components in my Experience as well. (Although regretfully I'm realizing that "presence" , or "sense of alivesness", is least experienced of the three - for me.)
I would challenge you to look again at ANY Experience and see that it is alive, with no separate liver/self. Thoughts are alive, sensations are alive, feelings are alive, the reading of this sentence is filled with aliveness, with presence, with being. Just a reminder to drop any judgments about Experience. We are categorizing simply for the purpose of deconstruction, not to say that any one aspect of Experience is any less or any more than the other. I would challenge you to see that all Experience is just that... Experience :)

Alright Peggy... let's begin another investigation similar to the three questions I gave you previously. Take your time with this, and honestly and earnestly report from and refer to simple here and now Direct Experiencing, and use our 3 aspects of Experience to breakdown any assumptions in to bare simple Experience.

- Where is this 'self'?

- What is the "I" / "me"?

- close eyes. Feel sensations, here and now. Is there a feeler of sensations? Or is the assumed feeler also just part of the experience?

- close eyes. watch thoughts come and go. Is there a thinker of thoughts?

- Can YOU think a thought? Is the thought "yes I can think a thought... i'm going to think GREEN... Green! Yes! I am the thinker of thought!" simply just another thought? or is there an actual thinker of thoughts? if there is... find it in direct Experience?

- is there an experience-er that is apart from the Experience? OR... is the experience-er just another part of Experience divided by thought in to "experience-er" + "Experience" or "me" + "my body" + "my room" + "the outside world"? CHECK.

Take your time, and write back when ready! Excited to undertake this journey with you!

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:49 pm

Hello cosmik,



"... let's begin another investigation similar to the three questions I gave you previously. Take your time with this, and honestly and earnestly report from and refer to simple here and now Direct Experiencing, and use our 3 aspects of Experience to breakdown any assumptions in to bare simple Experience."

"- Where is this 'self'?"

Primarily conjured up through thoughts and images in the mind. It's not a tangible entity that can actually be found in a concrete location.

"- What is the "I" / "me"?"

First answer that comes up is: it feels like word used to express or define an individual's wants, needs, ideas,etc. One thought that comes up is, "i is me", "me is I", ( & that goes around in endless circles :) ). Then.. When i ask the question and close my eyes & not rush to let thought answer- only a quietness, or presence/aliveness arises or seems to he there. Do it again & I see bodily sensations are there too.

"- close eyes. Feel sensations, here and now. Is there a feeler of sensations? Or is the assumed feeler also just part of the experience?"

There seems to be a feeler of sensations, or definitely an awareness of sensations. Awareness can monitor and notice sensations. For example, right now I can feel a sensation of pain in left side of neck. If it had to be described, it is actually a sensation in the here & now that is of throbbing, aching, stabbing, and pressure. There can be resistance or tightening around it if fearful thoughts about it come up. These are all 'parts' of the sensation. I'm not sure if 'awareness' in this case has the same definition as the 'feeler'?

"- close eyes. watch thoughts come and go. Is there a thinker of thoughts? "

There doesn't seem to be a separate thinker of thoughts. Thoughts just arise according to circumstances, impulses, or education. There is only container- brain/mind where they originate and are processed.

"- Can YOU think a thought? Is the thought "yes I can think a thought... i'm going to think GREEN... Green! Yes! I am the thinker of thought!" simply just another thought? or is there an actual thinker of thoughts? if there is... find it in direct Experience."

There only appears to be a 'thinker' because thoughts can arise in reaction to a prior thought. Or you can play different roles or parts & pretend to be different voices ordering or monitoring other thoughts, but these parts/voices are all simply thoughts. A thinker cannot be found in my experience. There is only thoughts & an awareness of thoughts but not a separate 'thinker'?

"- is there an experience-er that is apart from the Experience? OR... is the experience-er just another part of Experience divided by thought in to "experience-er" + "Experience" or "me" + "my body" + "my room" + "the outside world"? CHECK."

In the here & now, there is actually only expererience. But the experience-er does appear as 'me' or a 'self' that gets created by thought. For instance, i trip & stub my toe & experience pain, then the experience-er will come in to dramatize it with judgements, or thoughts about it.

After going through this investigation, I find that 'direct experience' is hard to stay with when discussing these 'things'. And is not the way 'I' operates. I also wonder if 'self', 'I ', 'Me', the 'thinker', the 'feeler', & the 'experience-er' are all the same phenomenon separating from 'direct experience'?

"Take your time, and write back when ready! Excited to undertake this journey with you!"

Yes I'm excited too & thank you for your time & consideration. I find myself wanting to he the 'good student' & give the 'correct' answer. But I see that is not what's helpful here & feel gratitude for your guidance.


Regards,

Peggy

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:21 pm

Hey Peggy,
First answer that comes up is: it feels like word used to express or define an individual's wants, needs, ideas,etc. One thought that comes up is, "i is me", "me is I", ( & that goes around in endless circles :) ).
Right. Thoughts are simply self-referencing. It points to no actual separate self, just to other aspects of Experience like thoughts, sensations, presence, etc.
There seems to be a feeler of sensations, or definitely an awareness of sensations. Awareness can monitor and notice sensations. For example, right now I can feel a sensation of pain in left side of neck. If it had to be described, it is actually a sensation in the here & now that is of throbbing, aching, stabbing, and pressure. There can be resistance or tightening around it if fearful thoughts about it come up. These are all 'parts' of the sensation. I'm not sure if 'awareness' in this case has the same definition as the 'feeler'?
Is this awareness "I"/"me"?
Is it personal?
Is it possible that there is no awareness separate from what is experienced?
As in no awareness+sensations, but JUST sensations constantly shifting, and one sensation labelled "awareness" and another labelled "sensation"?
There only appears to be a 'thinker' because thoughts can arise in reaction to a prior thought. Or you can play different roles or parts & pretend to be different voices ordering or monitoring other thoughts, but these parts/voices are all simply thoughts. A thinker cannot be found in my experience. There is only thoughts & an awareness of thoughts but not a separate 'thinker'?
Right. No thinker, just some thoughts that say "I am the thinker" or "I can think" or ... yada yada yada, they go on. Just notice them.

And again, is this awareness I/me?
is this awareness separation from what is experienced, or is just another aspect of experience that is divided "awareness" + "what is experienced"?
But the experience-er does appear as 'me' or a 'self' that gets created by thought. For instance, i trip & stub my toe & experience pain, then the experience-er will come in to dramatize it with judgements, or thoughts about it.
All of these wondrous things appears to appear. Just notice them. It is your job to check if there is an actual separate self that experiences this? Is there a YOU that all of this arises to?
After going through this investigation, I find that 'direct experience' is hard to stay with when discussing these 'things'. And is not the way 'I' operates.
Well when we report from Direct Experience, we are just noticing the thoughts, the sensate experiences, the sense of being, and reporting directly from the flow of such, with as little analysis as possible.

So when I say... touch table with finger. Report. There will be 2 kinds of reports
1) seeing... movement... felt touch and vision.. thoughts about "touching table"... typing
2) i read your instructions and then i move my hand, placed my finger on the table. then there was the sensation of touch which travelled through neural pathways, and then yada yada yada...

Do you see the difference? One is more respectful to Direct Experience, and it is what we are looking for. It is important for this simple noticing to be the cornerstone of your investigation. When we stick to this, we see that there is no separate self all, just assumptions of one through a stream of self-referencing thoughts. We look deeper in to these assumptions and break them down.
I also wonder if 'self', 'I ', 'Me', the 'thinker', the 'feeler', & the 'experience-er' are all the same phenomenon separating from 'direct experience'?
Wonder less, and investigate more. Thinking won't lead to Awakening, direct present moment here & now Experiencing well.

I propose that there is just this Experiencing, just this Appearance, just this Expression, just this Life, and thoughts about it, habitually and conceptually dividing it... but regardless of any conceptual division, it is ONLY conceptual, and ONLY in thought. Regardless... Check for yourself.

You say "...all the same phenomenon separating from 'direct experience'", and I will disagree with you and say there is NEVER any separation, just Experiencing, and THOUGHTS about it, which is also Experiencing... there is ONLY Experiencing. Regardless... Check for yourself.

So... on that note... let's make your investigate more active. Here are a few more exercises. Take your time and LOOK deeply in to them.

- Stand up. Walk forward slowly. Step by Step.
i) are YOU walking?
ii) is walking happening?
iii) are there sensations and Experience which are labelled and conceptualized "walking is happening"?

- Move your hand, up and down, slowly.
i) is there a controller/doer behind this?
ii) it is just happening?

- Pick an object or two.
i) is there a separate seer and seen?
iii) is there the seen, and other sensations that are usually labelled "seer" (such as 'body'/'head'/'awareness')?

- Take any activity that you usually do. Simply Notice
i) is there a separate doer? I/me? perceiver?
ii) is there just a stream of sensations that are habitually labelled and conceptually divided?


So, hopefully you are getting a feel for this investigation. It requires your thorough and dedicated LOOKing and SEEing, and Simple here&now noticing. Your investigation is to always bring it back to the unchallenged assumption, that there is "a separate self". This is the assumption that needs to be falsified. This is the assumption that can never withstand direct experiential observation. Take this investigation with you to any activity and any experiment...

is there any separation?
is there any separate self in any form, in any way?

Yes I'm excited too & thank you for your time & consideration. I find myself wanting to he the 'good student' & give the 'correct' answer. But I see that is not what's helpful here & feel gratitude for your guidance.
Yes, Honesty from you 110% is what is necessary. You are not a student, as my words will not lead to your Awakening, it serves however to the prompting of your own direct and simple and ruthless investigation of present moment here & now experience.

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:56 pm

Cosmik,

"So... on that note... let's make your investigate more active. Here are a few more exercises. Take your time and LOOK deeply in to them."

"- Stand up. Walk forward slowly. Step by Step.
i) are YOU walking?"

the Mechanics of walking is occurring.

"ii) is walking happening?"

Yes

"iii) are there sensations and Experience which are labelled and conceptualized
walking is happening"?

Yes there's experience of walking, bodily sensations, tactile sensation & thoughts while walking.

"- Move your hand, up and down, slowly.
i) is there a controller/doer behind this?"

Not a 'doer' -only muscle sensation & feeling of air around hand. ( I read somewhere that technically, there is brain message to the hand with instruction to move the hand up & down, but I don't have direct experience of that happening.)

"ii) it is just happening?"

Yes

"- Pick an object or two.
i) is there a separate seer and seen?"

Looking at chair, then thoughts come up about its color & softness.." Looking at clock, clock is on table, have thoughts noticing crack in the glass,

"iii) is there the seen, and other sensations that are usually labelled "seer" (such as 'body'/'head'/'awareness')?"

Yes, there is 'seen' and thoughts that are labeled as 'seer'.

"- Take any activity that you usually do. Simply Notice
i) is there a separate doer? I/me? perceiver?"

When watching tv, 'I' usually disappears so no separate doer. There are emotions of sadness if its a sad movie, or fear, excitement if action movie. Laughter if comedy." Thoughts figuring out plots, hearing sounds of music, translating language. Thoughts about whether its a 'good' movie.

When gardening, 'sense of a 'doer' is rare in this activity. There are sensual /tactile experience of smell of flowers, texture of soil, vividness of colors, thoughts about how deep to plant, whether this will be good harvest. "

"ii) is there just a stream of sensations that are habitually labelled and conceptually divided?"

Yes

"So, hopefully you are getting a feel for this investigation. It requires your thorough and dedicated LOOKing and SEEing, and Simple here&now noticing. Your investigation is to always bring it back to the unchallenged assumption, that there is "a separate self". This is the assumption that needs to be falsified. This is the assumption that can never withstand direct experiential observation. Take this investigation with you to any activity and any experiment..."

"is there any separation? is there any separate self in any form, in any way?"

In doing these exercises, and with the guidance provided, i have glimpsed the fact that, in reality, a separate self does not exist. I also see that a separate self is habitually created by thought. This separate self feels heavily ingrained in beingness, and I see the creating of it has become habitual."

Regards,

Peggy

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:29 pm

Hey Peggy,

Let's clarify and hone this investigation.
When watching tv, 'I' usually disappears so no separate doer. There are emotions of sadness if its a sad movie, or fear, excitement if action movie. Laughter if comedy." Thoughts figuring out plots, hearing sounds of music, translating language. Thoughts about whether its a 'good' movie.
You say that the "I" dissapears... even if whatever that is dissapears or not, is there ever an "I"/"me"/ or separate self?
When gardening, 'sense of a 'doer' is rare in this activity. There are sensual /tactile experience of smell of flowers, texture of soil, vividness of colors, thoughts about how deep to plant, whether this will be good harvest. "
When that rare 'sense of a doer' is there in any activity, is there actually any doer/agent/separate self there at all?
In doing these exercises, and with the guidance provided, i have glimpsed the fact that, in reality, a separate self does not exist. I also see that a separate self is habitually created by thought. This separate self feels heavily ingrained in beingness, and I see the creating of it has become habitual."
Who or what glipses this fact?

When you say that a "separate self is habitually created", is there suddenly a separate self that manifests? as in... does reality suddenly actually reallly get separated, or is this just another Experience conceptually divided. No instant answer for this one... it's important you investigate this thoroughly.

Regardless of what experience arises, even a heavily ingrained or habitually repeated one, check to see if there is any actual separate self, any ACTUAL separation?

Look forward to hearing your investigated responses!

Love.

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:19 pm

Hello cosmik,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I've had some family dramas going on. I've also been a little perplexed by the inquiry & don't know where to go from here.

I see what you are saying or getting at.. An 'experience' of an actual separate self is an illusion. Its created by the mind in thought but it does not exist 'out there' in the physical world.

Or... The 'Experience of a separate self' is simply an idea generated by the brain & does not actually exist apart from the person having the experience.

Its possible to have a taste of this epiphany. But the act of re-creating it doesn't seem to get totally dropped like a hot potato. What prevents a person from continually 're-identifing with the illusion of a separate self? Practice?

Regards,

Peggy


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