Seeing is not believing

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Mitche
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Seeing is not believing

Postby Mitche » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:50 am

Aloha, everyone.

I would love to work through the 'after' questions if some one cares to assist. I find good resonance with Ilonas style so, Ilona, if you are available I would be very grateful.

Apparently I went through the Gate a few days ago. And lo, there was no Gate, just mostly normal. Have been just breathing since, letting stuff settle in or out. The brain is still chattering, looking for verification, loudly noting that 'it did not happen exactly as written, I got the steps out of order..!'. And the emotions are fearful that Mitch is lying to himself, again. How this could be when there is no Mitch to lie or be deceived? Indeed.

The first seeing of the illusion of self came reading Gateless Gate in bed one night. Just happened. No bells, no fireworks, just no self. Brain and body jumped on immediately the next morning...chatter chatter chatter. I was able to work in the Guiding Area with Yari and his questioning brought up much fear, fear of not being lying deep below all the chatter. I took Ilona's advice and thanked the Fear for the good job it as doing. It subsided. I asked what it had to teach me and there was a another opening. So I've sat with this for a few days. Was able to share this with my wife in a way that convinced me I was not going to lose being with her on this side of the Gate. Why should it? Just another made up fear.

Am understanding what is meant by the end of seeking. Seek what?


Much mahalo, everyone.
Aloha to all,
Mitche in Hawaii

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lex
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby lex » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:54 pm

Love the subject of this post. seeing is not believing.
Great.thank you. As there is no owner I feel free to use and quote it ad lib. :-)

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Mitche
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby Mitche » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:09 am

Assuming there's a you, its all yours. By the way, I was hoping someone could step me through the 'after questions'. A little time has passed, self reasserts itself, trying to get me to buy back in. I'm fading into and out of clarity and fear I'm not through with this process after all...
Aloha to all,
Mitche in Hawaii

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lex
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby lex » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:28 pm

Ok, I'm available. Glad to be of assistance.

Look at your fears. Are they YOUR fears, really? Is there an owner of those fears/thoughts?
Something or someone behind them?
self reasserts itself, trying to get me to buy back in
I see three entities here:
self (1) reasserts itself (2), trying to get me (3) to buy back in.

Please identify yourselves, number 1 2, and 3.

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Mitche
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby Mitche » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:54 pm

Mahalo, Lex (smiling),

Good seeing, friend. Who are those three? Here is what is see:

Fears: When they become present, are accompanied by habitual 'self doubt'. Habitual ownership is claimed by 'self'. In fact, they support existence of 'self', making the entire experience of having Fear of Not Getting It a self fulfilling prophecy.

Self: my personal Santa Claus. When it becomes into awareness it is known to be bogus. Has not disappeared entirely. Will it? Is this in process even now?

Reasserts itself: an arising, given power by resistance.

To buy back in: Hmm...will have to sit with this for a time. Back soon.

Mitche
Aloha to all,
Mitche in Hawaii

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lex
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby lex » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:47 am

¡Aloha Mitche!

I see thought + fear. The fear is clear, the thoughts complicated.

Habitual ownership is claimed by 'self'.
So the self(1) claims to be the owner(2) of the habitual ownership(3)?
To me it seems just one complicated thought, juggling imaginary selves.
Fears: When they become present, are accompanied by habitual 'self doubt'.
Do you mean: The fear is automatically coupled to the sense of self which results in the belief: "I'm afraid".
Can you see that self (´I´) is a thought too? And not more than that?
In fact, they support existence of 'self', making the entire experience of having Fear of Not Getting It a self fulfilling prophecy.
So there is some faculty that clearly sees this whole movement.
Self: my personal Santa Claus. When it becomes into awareness it is known to be bogus. Has not disappeared entirely. Will it? Is this in process even now?
Why would it disappear? It will stay, but just as a feeling (sense of self) or as thoughts ("I").
It will only be seen for what it is (feeling or thought).
My sense of self has become even stronger after gating. It is one of the most constant and stable experiences I know. Kind of always there in the background. What is gone here is the sense/idea of separation.

What do you expect seeing that there is no self will bring you other than seeing there is no self?

Recently someone in process found this obstacle, which might resonate (if not, just ignore)
“So one of the expectations was probably that I wouldn't believe my stories anymore”

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Mitche
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby Mitche » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:36 am

Lex: The light just went on. Yes, I see that I have been making up a lot of stuff and believing that it is real. Hidden expectations, thoughts being taken as reality. I did expect that self would disappear, gradually fade out maybe. Self as a thought is as real as any other thought. It is just not me. There is no real me as I had been thinking of me all along. There is self as thought, still here. OK, I'm OK with this. Why not be?

This is what turned on the light for me:

Why would it disappear? It will stay, but just as a feeling (sense of self) or as thoughts ("I").
It will only be seen for what it is (feeling or thought).My sense of self has become even stronger after gating. It is one of the most constant and stable experiences I know. Kind of always there in the background. What is gone here is the sense/idea of separation.

What do you expect seeing that there is no self will bring you other than seeing there is no self?

I WAS EXPECTING THAT SEEING THERE IS NO SELF WOULD MAKE EVERYTHING DIFFERENT, CAUSE THE ILLUSION OF SELF TO EXIT THE SCENE. Now I see that seeing there is no self means only that I see there is no self. Not that the experience of I goes away. It is a useful role, a useful mask. I don't believe I am the character depicted in the mask. I am a locus in conciousness, most often but not always wearing a mask that fits more comfortably when I'm wearing it. It does not make me separate from the unity. I am the unity, wearing my mask. I also see that this truth about self will not be unseen or forgotten.

I'd love to continue our dialog. I'm traveling to Thailand in a few days and will be there for several weeks. Some access to computers, I believe, but not constant. I'll check back here over the weekend.
Aloha to all,
Mitche in Hawaii

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lex
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby lex » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:11 am

Great to see that things cleared up.

Our job now is to make sure that no spark of belief in a separate self remains.
I am a locus in consciousness
That looks like an identifying thought. Is it true? Can you be localised? Either in the body or in consciousness?
Can a thought wear a mask?

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Mitche
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby Mitche » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:40 am

OK, I'm with you. No localization is possible. A locus of awareness would be a separate 'self',would it not? I see that the belief (and the need) is not gone. No, a thought can not wear a mask. For a thought to be reclassified as a 'locus' is just hanging onto old ideas of there being a separate self.

In the body are only feelings passing by. In consciousness localization makes zero sense. The belief in self is a persistent bugger. It keeps sneaking in in diverse ways, trying to convince of its truth.

Can a thought wear a mask? No it is always a thought, one thought and then another shaped differently all based on belief in separation. Like the old shape shifting monsters of myth, first one form then another.

I see that trying to get the mind to remember separation is false is not the same as coming to believe separation is false. This is a really slippery snake I should just let go of, can't hold it. Too many mirrors, too many mazes.
Aloha to all,
Mitche in Hawaii

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Mitche
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby Mitche » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:03 am

Back a bit later...looking at not needing to continually identify, as Myself or as anything else. Typing is going on, spelling is going on, breathing is going on, listening to wife in the other room is going on, knowing I am flyng to Thailand Monday is going on. It's all going on. No continually identifying as Mitch is requied for all that to be going on in this moment. Will stick with this mode for a bit, where a Mitch does not seem to be necessary...
Aloha to all,
Mitche in Hawaii

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lex
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby lex » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:36 pm

I see that trying to get the mind to remember separation is false is not the same as coming to believe separation is false. This is a really slippery snake I should just let go of, can't hold it.
The slippery snake is the word "should".
Believing in non-separation is maybe harder to deal with than believing in separation.
As long as you observe separation, please don't try to “believe it away”. Just observe.

Is there separation experienced when there are no thoughts? Investigate and let me know.
I should just let go of, can't hold it.
Is there anyone or anything in control of any action of the body, any thought appearing in the mind, any emotion?

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Mitche
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby Mitche » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:24 am

Odd that it seems easier to stop thinking for short time than it used to be. Odd that my fingers can spell. I find that when not focused on thinking any sense of separation evaporates. No big deal, its just not there.

Feelings are pretty good at arousing that sense of separation.

Making movements with my arms or feet or whatever seems to require a focus on intention and then are release of control to let it happen. I guess the brain takes care of that part. "I" have no role in this.

SIDE NOTE: Lex, I am flying tomorrow (20 hour flight). Will be close to computers and internet from time to time over the next few weeks. Want to keep this up so I will check in as often as possible.

Will continue investigating your question of 'is there a sense of self when there are no thoughts?" in route.

And, Lex, thank you.
Aloha to all,
Mitche in Hawaii

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lex
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby lex » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:18 pm

Welcome to Thailand.
Had a good trip?
Enjoying the temperature?
Will continue investigating your question of 'is there a sense of self when there are no thoughts?" in route.
This was not my question.
You are free to investigate that too, of course.
My question was: "Is there separation experienced when there are no thoughts? "

And as the sense of self pops up as a subject anyway:
What is the relationship between the sense of self and the feeling/idea of separation? Do they always appear together? Or are they independent? Do both require thinking?

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Mitche
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Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby Mitche » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:36 pm

Good questions all. Thailand day one has been an adventure in not knowing (my ass from a hole in the ground). It ain't the heat, it's the humidity. I'm a Dental Tourist at this point. Will become a garden variety tourist in a few days. Thank you for the welcome. Are you in Thailand? That would be an interesting synchronicity.

So, yeah, there is a subtle distinction between my looking to see if there is a sense of self while not thinking and your asking if there is a sense of separation while not thinking. I've had a good bit of time not thinking lately and I can pretty conclusively answer 'no, there ain't' a sense of separation when the mind is quiet. Quite the contrary, and it's quite nice actually. When I am not thinking or am not caught up in believing the 'world' thoughts create there seems nothing to be separate with, nowhere to go to be separate. And no desire to be, either.

About the sense of self, it is still here. Since your recent post asking why I think it should just 'go away' my understanding of this matter has shifted considerably. I am getting that it will stay and that that is not a bad thing. It seems more 'right sized', not owning the joint. Just another thought form out of a myriad of others.

What is the relationship between the two, sense of self and sense of separation? Hmm. Without the former I don't have the latter. As I said above, I don't have something to be separate WITH. At the same time they can coexist with the 'self' more or less encapsulated in awareness which is, itself, not separate. Does that make sense?

Something else about thinking is that it seems like a new tool I'll have to get used to using all over again. This may be a temporary illusion, I don't know. I'm having a little difficulty describing what this new relationship with thinking is all about so maybe I'll let it go for now and just sit on it.

All in all, I am losing my fear of having 'missed it'. What's next?

Mitch
Aloha to all,
Mitche in Hawaii

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Mitche
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Location: Hawaii

Re: Seeing is not believing

Postby Mitche » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:47 pm

Looking over this recent post and reading a few of the other on 'HOME' I am a little confused (with a sense of disquiet along for the ride) about the question "was there ever a self, in any way at all?" I know that NO, THERE NEVER WAS. IT WAS AND REMAINS AN ILLUSION, A CREATION OF THOUGHT, OF PROCESSES IN THE BRAIN INTERMIXING WITH ONGOING AWARENESS. And with that comes a sense of deep sadness, almost of grief. It is the self that creates this feeling of loss and sadness as a survival tactic ( I think). So here is the self manifesting again and yes at this moment I feel very separate. It is just a feeling, nothing else, no less real for that. It is here, I feel it. What is behind the sadness? LOOKING...

Nothing. Just sadness. The attachment to self and story of self is made of this sadness. Sitting with it is uncomfortable but when I do separation does not last long and after that there is just being being. Right now this is kind of strobing on/off/on/off. Will sit with this tonight and see what comes up.

Thank you for your patience, Lex.
Aloha to all,
Mitche in Hawaii


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