February 20 2013 at Facebook Liberation Unleashed Gate group
Could someone help me out here? I'd like to go through the process. Please... Thank you! :)
Lex : Welcome Rodrigo and sorry for the delay. Are you ready?
Rodrigo : Yes, I am.
Lex : Ok!, What timezone are you in? Did you read the ground rules? Is there a particular time that you are mostly available?
Lex : What do you expect the outcome of this process will be?
Rodrigo : GMT -3. I've just read the ground rules. I'm available now if you're there. On weekdays I'm available in the afternoon and evening, sometimes in the morning too. Weekends: afternoon. I expect that I will realise that there is no "I" and something else good might happen to me (e.g. Enlightment? I don't know...). About the question of what brought me here I can say that I'm mostly attracted to things that may possibly make myself grow spiritually. I'll keep looking
Lex : Can't promise spiritual growth, shrinking is more likely. We aim for nullification.
Just joking, the self will not be eradicated, because what doesn't exists can't be destroyed.
Can you tell me in short what kind of spiritual practices you have been involved in?
From your direct experience, what does the word "I" point to?
Rodrigo : haha 17-21 years old: reading spiritual books & meditating on elevating things (sometimes). 22-28 (no spiritual practice - only studying to get a career in IT where I'm working now). 28 years old: 1 month of anapasati meditation (40min to 1hour - focusing on breathing), 6-7 days of spinal breathing pranayama (I got overloaded with prana, good cleansing experience followed by very bad side effect later on), stopped for 2 weeks to recover, then moved on to Mantra Chanting only once a day followed by meditation for a few minutes, I'm in Week 3 now. From my direct experience the "I" points to what I can voluntarily move or manipulate. Mostly my body and the ability to "think" of a voluntary thought. I understand that mostly it's involuntary but if I want to think of a blue car, I can see a blue car in my mind. That'`s what I'm talking about.
Rodrigo : PS: no worries about time zone, as long as you reply it's ok for me
Lex : “ I want to think of a blue car, I can see a blue car in my mind.” - And were comes the thought “ I want to think of a blue car” come from?
Can you decide or even predict what your next thought will be?
Rodrigo : You are right. I thought when I made up something in my mind (i.e. think of a blue car), I was voluntarily thinking of a blue car, but in order to think of a blue car there was a first initial thought about a blue car that is not mine. I honestly don't know where it comes from. This answers the first question. About the second question I'd say NO. I cannot decide or predict what my next thought will be. For me it's automatic. Interesting! You've got a very good point! However, why am I able to move my hands to the right or left and I'm not able to make a stone move by itself? Do you mean everything this body is doing (including typing texts to you), it is doing by itself as well, just like the thoughts I thought were mine? If so, what is moving my hands while I'm typing now?
Lex : "why am I able to move my hands to the right or left and I'm not able to make a stone move by itself?"
YOU are neither able to move "your" hands nor to move a stone. Both just happen. So move your hand slowly from right to left and look if there is someone doing the moving or that it just happens.
It can be investigated also in daily life: Do you talk or is talking happening? Do you think or is thinking happening? Do you walk or is walking happening? Do you breathe or is breathing happening?
Even: Do you investigate or is investigating happening?
Lex : The question: “what is moving my hands while I'm typing now” - is unfortunately beyond my capacity to answer. I even doubt if the most advanced neurological theory could explain what is happening here. Of course the mind can conjure up some simplified concepts like “I am typing” or “it is life manifesting itself as typing” or “a compLex conditioned pattern of firing neurons”, but the truth is that what is happening here is too compLex for the mind to apprehend.
Rodrigo : My point is: if you're right and I'm neither able to move my hands nor to move a stone, then what I'm doing right now + what I've ever been doing (including typing this text now and everything else) is conditioned, i.e. automatic. Does it mean I don't have a choice? Does it mean that *what* is moving my hands right now were supposed to move it the way I'm moving it anyway and my only aim is to be aware of what was supposed to happen anyway? Moving on to your questions: yes, talk just happens (agreed!), thinking just happens (agreed!), walking just happens (agreed!) and investigating just happens as well. I understand this concept that things are just happening. Is it the message liberation unleashed wants to pass on? Is there something else? Thanks !
Lex : “ I understand this concept that things are just happening.” - but is it also SEEN, experienced as such? Or is it just another concept? If you look inside, do you perceive an "I"?
Lex : It doesn't mean that you don't have a choice, it means there is no chooser.
Lex : It's automatic, but I prefer the word spontaneous.
Rodrigo : Since yesterday after your question about where the thinking of a blue car came from I started to SEE and EXPERIENCE that things just flow. I'm now SEEING that my thoughts are similar to a body. I know the body is here and there is no "I" in the body and now I can see that "thoughts" are just there and there is no "I" associated with my thoughts as well. They just come up and there is an awareness that experiences all of these things. However, I still don't understand WHY it is like that. I was expecting to reach a point with Liberation Unleashed where I could understand WHY. I've heard the "WHY" can only be understood when we reach what we call (using Buddhists words) Enlightment.
Lex : “my thoughts are similar to a body” - can you explain that?
and why do you say “ ‘MY’ thoughts” and “ ‘A’ body” ?
(I come back to that WHY later)
Rodrigo : My mistake. I should have said "the thoughts" and "the/a body". Sorry. From now on I will try to use it this way. "My thoughts are similar to a body" means that when I first started the process here I used to think of a body as a body and something not tied to the concept of Self ok? Now it expanded over to everything else including the mind machine that generates thoughts by itself.
Lex : No need to apologize.
I don't understand, can you explain in other words what changed since you started this process?
Rodrigo : Before I started this process I thought "MY" thoughts were something I was creating all the time and that I was in charge of things here. Now I see that "MY" thoughts are not created. Instead, they just come up. There is just awareness and experiences coming and leaving.
Lex : Ok, and what about the body?
Lex : “ I used to think of a body as a body and something not tied to the concept of Self ” - this I did not understand.
Rodrigo : Because I previously thought "I" had the power to create thoughts I used to feel that there was an entity inside my mind that was in charge of it. I now understand and SEE it's an illusion. Related to the "body thing" -> I used to SEE a body as a body already, but "MIND" as MYSELF. I removed the concept of "SELF" from the body previously, but NOT from the MIND and everything else like NOW.
Lex : So you were a mind in a body, and not the body. I see.
How is the situation now?
Rodrigo : Correct ! Now there is just AWARENESS, no entity anywhere. Not even in the mind like before.
Rodrigo : However, the fact that there is just AWARENESS still doesn't explain WHY it is like that.
Lex : Can you formulate your WHY question. Exactly what do you want to know?
Lex : Or better: What is exactly the question?
Rodrigo : I'm aware that the will to move my hands to right or left weren't my decision, it just happened. I'd like to be able to answer what is moving my hands to the right or left then? I'm aware it's not a Self!
Rodrigo : Also, has the goal been achieved in our conversation? Was the complete removal of a Self and experiencing a Selfless state where there's just experience the goal of Liberation Unleashed? Because I believe there must be something else. Some kind of expansion of awareness where you reach a state that you understand WHY things are the way they are and not just experience things the way they are.
Lex : I'm afraid I can't help you with that. I already threw a few concepts before (life, neural activity, a bunch of causes, everything in the universe is connected), but actually I simply don't know. It's a mystery.
Lex : Realisation that there is no self is not an end point. Life goes on. Unfolding continues. Who knows it is possible to know the big WHY.
There is a set of questions to check if "the goal is reached".
Are you ready to answer them?
Rodrigo : My pleasure. Go on, please.
Lex : Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Can there ever be?
Rodrigo : No. Not at all. Everything just IS.
Lex : When you say "I", what in experience are you referring to?
Rodrigo : An imaginary label within the life experience the same way we refer to a chair as chair, but it's something we made up. It was supposed to be a label to a body and a mind people think it's a Self but they're machines that we have no control over. They just are the way the are and we can just be aware of it.
Lex : Are you a machine that you have no control over?
Rodrigo : No. There is no machine to have control over. There is no me. There's just things happening and you can only be aware of if.
Lex : Are you awareness?
Rodrigo : No, there is awareness the same way there are thoughts.
Lex : Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works
Rodrigo : The illusion comes when you label something as "YOU" and you "STICK" with that concept and you carry it with you for a long time. You don't even discuss you can be wrong, you just accept it. I spent a long time thinking there was an entity inside my mind that had control over my thoughts and was commanding my actions in this world. This is the illusion of separate self. It started when my parents started calling myself as "Rodrigo" and my belief got stronger and stronger. You just stick with this concept and derive many other concepts based on this, but there is no concept to stick to. Things must be seen the way they are and not with labels and things on top of them.
Lex : “ Things must be seen the way they are and not with labels and things on top of them.” - can you elaborate on that?
Lex : (it can be that it is just a matter of language)
Rodrigo : Yes, sure. When I look at a knife I can see an object. The word "Knife" is just a label, just like "Rodrigo". It is useful to give "names" and label things but sometimes you don't know the difference between the label itself and the object itself. If you see a knife without the label it is easier to notice there is just "experience". Then, the mind goes on and sticks the label "Knife" to it. What if nobody had named "Knife" as "Knife", how would you describe what's a knife? With more labels you learnt when you were younger. If you remove all labels there is just experience.
Lex : Ok, clear. Great.
Lex : Next question:
How does it FEEL to See?
Rodrigo : in one word I'd say "Surprising" rather than "Shocking". Because I've been reading things about spirituality and everything else I'd say "Surprising".
Rodrigo : However, it can be "Shocking" to other people. Who knows!
Lex : Can you say more about that? What was surprising?
Lex : Yes, and were there more feelings? Did something change in perception, state, experience?
Rodrigo : I can put it in another way. Side effects are: I'm noticing thoughts arising and leaving and I can be sure there is no Self creating it. It just arises and goes. We just do things rather than command what we'll be doing time after time.
Rodrigo : Yes, something changed in perception. It's like the 5 senses are more active. Thoughts are perceived as any other sense like smelling or vision.
Lex : Great.
How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?
Lex : “We just do things rather than command what we'll be doing time after time.” - We do things or they just happen?
Rodrigo : Language is tricky. Things just happen. This was what I meant. Sorry
Rodrigo : how would you describe what? the process I've been through? Or the illusion of self?
Lex : I guessed so, and in daily life we just talk "normal". In this "examination" I am supercritical to remove all doubt.
Rodrigo : Yes. It is the way I usually type.. so it kind of takes time to get used to type it in another way.
Lex : And how is it to apologize to me? How does that "sorry" feel?
Rodrigo : It feels polite only. If I had to describe to someone else I'd say I'm looking at this conversation as I was watching a film rather than acting in the film itself.
Rodrigo : If this word "Sorry" or something you said triggered something emotionally I'd say I could notice not as part of a Self.
Lex : Is there a watcher?
Rodrigo : No, just watching.
Lex : I mean: If you wanted to explain this to someone, what would you say?
Lex : Like if we reversed roles. You guide me.
Rodrigo : Ok, Lex. As you've accepted to go through this process. I'd like to you to tell me where do you see a Self. Is it in your body? Is it in your mind? Could you explain to me what do you think of as a Self, please?
Rodrigo : I could start off like this...
Rodrigo : I'd try to reach the "root" where the concept of Self is in that person.
Lex : Interesting, how would you do that?
Rodrigo : Despite of the words I use the person that I will be talking to will reach a point where he/she will be unable to point any self at all. It's just a matter of keep questioning deeper and deeper based on the person's concept until you reach the "root". After understanding comes, I would still keep questioning to make sure the person itself is now experiencing/seeing THE experience with no SELF involved.
Lex : Seeing the experience or experiencing?
Rodrigo : Just "Experiencing"
Rodrigo : There's nothing else, really. Just experiencing.
Lex : What was the last bit that pushed you over or made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual?
Rodrigo : The last bit that pushed me to just experience things was your question: "where did the thought of thinking about blue car come from?". It removed the Self from the mind and thoughts became detached from a Self. It was surprising and it just happened. You can say I've been preparing myself to go through this process and in this case one might say it was gradual, but the "SELFLESS" moment comes right after you remove the "I" and there is no "I" to cling to. Then you begin to experience things the way they are.
Lex : We're almost through
Now that you see that 'you', the first person character at the core of life, isn't, what do you see when you see 'others'? Explain in your own words from your direct experience.
Rodrigo : I'd say they're NOT other Entities separate from "me". There are no Entities anywhere. There is no ME. I'd say I see themselves as part of Experiencing things.
Lex : "themselves" - nice word.
Rodrigo : I'd add to it that there is nothing to be explained about others. They're part of the Experience.
Lex : Muito bom!
That were all the questions. The procedure now is that 3 other guides will confirm or come with additional questions.
Do you have anything to add? Are there any doubts? Any questions? Is this "why" still lurking dissatisfied in the background?
Rodrigo : No, it doesn't bother me.
Rodrigo : There is nothing much to add as what comes up to my mind is just based on real experience that I see just upon me.
Rodrigo : Ok, I'm going home now. It's a pleasure to go through additional questions with other guides. Will be waiting
Rodrigo : Thank you
Lex : De nada.
Let's see what unfolds.
Rodrigo : Haha... De nada
Lex : You got confirmed, Rodrigo.
This means that you soon will be invited to join any "after-care" group as well as to become a guide yourself.
Rodrigo : Dank u!!
This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
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