Ready to wake up from the dream of self

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Leo
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Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Leo » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:59 pm

Hello,
I've been trying to know who I am and to awaken for some years now, and all I got so far is a lot of confusion and headaches. I believe I have a strong-holding and very cunning ego that's gonna be trouble to get rid of. So when I saw this flamethrower area, I thought this might be just what I need.
So if someone would be willing to guide me through this, I'll be most grateful :).
I'm ready to go, and eager to start

Love

Leo

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Eloratea » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:43 pm

Hi Leo,
nice you came here.

When you say you have ego, what is meant by “you” and what by ego? Not in theory - in real life, in own experience.
It sounds like you expect from us to throw a flame to the bad guy ego, so good guy “you” becomes free. Well, this might not be quite to your expectations. :)

Love

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Leo » Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:52 pm

Hi Eloratea,
many thanks for helping me.
I watched in my personal experience for "ego" and realized I was only talking about a mental concept I learned reading E. Tolle and others, and that I had little first-hand experience of what it is. It was a practical label for "what is wrong" or "the bad guy" or "what I don't like about my life". When I look in my life, what I see is a tendency to identifiy with my body, things, thoughts, reflexions, roles I play, etc.. This builds a false sense of "I-ness" that is the root of a lot of suffering.
When I tried to look at the second part of your question, what I meant by "I", I was first very surprised that I came up with more or less the same results thant with the "ego" search.. I mean by "I" everything that I give a sense of "self" to... In everyday life, it is all that I described above, so I have to conclude that in everyday life, "I" = ego. (which make sense finally since "ego" actually means "I" in latin).
However, in deep meditation, or in those mental clarity moments that sometimes pop up, I can clearly see some of the identifications I talked about. This creates a distance that allows me to drop the identification, but it eventually comes back later. In those moments, the "I" would be what sees all this, what understands, reason, organize and wants.
Well, this might not be quite to your expectations. :)
Well I do have a lot of expectations, but the more important is I want to see the truth, however unexpected it might be :-).

Thanks again and see you soon

Leo

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Eloratea » Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:26 pm

Well I do have a lot of expectations, but the more important is I want to see the truth, however unexpected it might be :-).
Good Leo. Leave all the expectations and enjoy the ride that just started. :)
I watched in my personal experience for "ego" and realized I was only talking about a mental concept I learned reading E. Tolle and others, and that I had little first-hand experience of what it is.
Of course, it is not possible to have first hand experience of it, because it is just a concept for the bunch of conditioned thinking/behaving. Sometimes it is useful to use it as a shortcut label, when we know what we are talking about, while sometimes it is just obscuring clear and simple perception of what is.
It was a practical label for "what is wrong" or "the bad guy" or "what I don't like about my life".
Yes, it became often a label for the “shameful” part of “me” which we should get rid of and become all good and perfect. But, wouldn’t be that same ego behind such an unrealistic and useless attempt?
When I look in my life, what I see is a tendency to identifiy with my body, things, thoughts, reflexions, roles I play, etc.. This builds a false sense of "I-ness" that is the root of a lot of suffering.
Yes, in human experience there is a tendency to various identifications; Which cause suffering, which we want to get rid of :) But first thing to do is to see clearly as possible how that mechanism comes into play.
Can you explain why the sense of I-ness is false?
And when you say – roles I play- who is playing? Is there anyone, any actor playing role of Leo? :)
I mean by "I" everything that I give a sense of "self" to... In everyday life, it is all that I described above,
You want to say that there is you which gives sense of self to life experiences?
Look in reality, in direct experience how it happens?
What is exactly sense of self? How it feels? How it is connected with thoughts?

However, in deep meditation, or in those mental clarity moments that sometimes pop up, I can clearly see some of the identifications I talked about. This creates a distance that allows me to drop the identification, but it eventually comes back later.
Yes, the identification comes and goes.
What stays is deeply rooted belief in existence of separate “me” living life.
In those moments, the "I" would be what sees all this, what understands, reason, organize and wants.
In those moments of more detachment isn’t maybe also expressed belief and identification, though more subtle, in the kind of higher, more observant „me“? Still quite the same process of labeling in play, labeling and personalizing processes occurring in life, like breathing, perceiving, thinking, observing…? Are they really personal, self-controlled, or just with thoughts labeled as such?

Looking forward to your replies.
:)

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Leo » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:47 pm

Hello!
But, wouldn’t be that same ego behind such an unrealistic and useless attempt?
It really feels like it is, but at the same time, that also would mean that any self-improvement work, even this attempt to be liberated, emanates from the ego.. It sounds a bit strange that it would start something hopefully ending with its own destruction?
Can you explain why the sense of I-ness is false?
What is exactly sense of self? How it feels? How it is connected with thoughts?
When I said a false sense of I-ness, I meant a situation when I acted/reacted as if I was someone, or as if some thought I had at that moment was true, and then realized that it was just an identification, that the thought for example was just not true. Not sure I'm making myself clear. Example: I was very angry about someone, it seemed very true, like this anger was part of me. Then I saw that there was a thought "I'm very angry about this person", from a distance. And what saw this thought, wasn't angry at all. So I saw this thought, I felt the anger, but nobody was angry. So I believed this thought was part of me when she actually wasn't, that the false sense of self I was talking about.

That lead me to what is sense of self in my life: I can see 3 things: beliefs that I am this or that, that this or that is mine, thoughts labelling objects (my body, voice, thoughts...), and a familiar, comfy feeling attached to things I consider mine ( a place, sound, object, a thought), that I can feel in my chest or sometimes near the solar plexus.
And when you say – roles I play- who is playing? Is there anyone, any actor playing role of Leo? :)
By roles I play, I meant sets of contionned behavior/thinking that I ultimately can recognize as such. I understand your question as: "Is there anything else than these roles?", and I don't know the answer to that. I'm still looking.
In those moments of more detachment isn’t maybe also expressed belief and identification, though more subtle, in the kind of higher, more observant „me“?
It is very possible but not seen at the moment. When I observe, there is not much that I can control, but I still feel there is an observer (me) that can choose what he observes.

Hope to hear from you soon :)

Leo

ps: I might not be able to post tomorrow, due to a long distance travel, but I'll hopefully get back online soon.

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Eloratea » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:57 pm

Hi Leo!
It really feels like it is, but at the same time, that also would mean that any self-improvement work, even this attempt to be liberated, emanates from the ego.. It sounds a bit strange that it would start something hopefully ending with its own destruction?
This isn't a self improvement :)
Impulse for liberation may come from right place, from life itself, but can be variously interpreted and masked with a desire for self improvement.
So I saw this thought, I felt the anger, but nobody was angry. So I believed this thought was part of me when she actually wasn't, that the false sense of self I was talking about.
Do you still believe some thoughts are part of you? Are there thoughts that are you?
And is there a not-false sense of I and what is it? Something which is there also when there is no identification.
That lead me to what is sense of self in my life: I can see 3 things: beliefs that I am this or that, that this or that is mine, thoughts labelling objects (my body, voice, thoughts...)
Here and now what and where is the sense of self? Is there anything real behind those labels me, mine…? Something real that turns „A thing“ into „MY thing“?
and a familiar, comfy feeling attached to things I consider mine ( a place, sound, object, a thought), that I can feel in my chest or sometimes near the solar plexus.
When you look at that sensations of self in the body do they refer to something, someone real? When you put thoughts about me, mine... aside, what happens with this sensation?
By roles I play, I meant sets of contionned behavior/thinking that I ultimately can recognize as such. I understand your question as: "Is there anything else than these roles?", and I don't know the answer to that. I'm still looking.
If I say that there is a story about Leo, but that you are not that character, neither an actor playing it, that it is just a play of life, how does it feel?
When I observe, there is not much that I can control, but I still feel there is an observer (me) that can choose what he observes.
Can you choose, or it just feels that way, when choice with thought about it happen?
Look how it works.
This is all about constant looking into the direct experience of here and now. Is there any separate self there, except in thoughts?

ps: I might not be able to post tomorrow, due to a long distance travel, but I'll hopefully get back online soon.
No problem. Just keep looking and write on findings when possible.
Have a good journey :)

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Leo » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Hi, I finally reached my destination and an internet access..
Do you still believe some thoughts are part of you? Are there thoughts that are you?
No, you're right, it is impossible that thoughs are me or part of me. I am what perceives them. Thoughts come and go permanently. I am what stays
Here and now what and where is the sense of self? Is there anything real behind those labels me, mine…? Something real that turns „A thing“ into „MY thing“?
Here and now, I'm having trouble finding the sense of self at all. There is physical sensations, emotions, thoughts, but I can't really find something else.
When you look at that sensations of self in the body do they refer to something, someone real? When you put thoughts about me, mine... aside, what happens with this sensation?


No, the sensations are juste there, the association is made by the mind. When I watch them closely, sometimes they disappear, sometimes get more intense and turns into a somewhat constricting feeling associated with fear. Maybe something I'm afraid to let go?
If I say that there is a story about Leo, but that you are not that character, neither an actor playing it, that it is just a play of life, how does it feel?
It feels a bit strange.. I can get I'm not the character though. The character is made of memories and reactionnal patterns that just manifets without any control in reactions to external events or to thoughts. But if I'm not "something" playing it, I can't see what I am. And I feel that 'I am' something, even if I'm not sure of what it is..
Can you choose, or it just feels that way, when choice with thought about it happen?
Look how it works.
This is tricky... when I try to look at "what is observed now" my awareness keep changing focus very rapidly, driven by external stimuli or thoughts. So it seems then I can't control it, but the experience is very different from "normal", daily awareness when I feel I can control what I observe..

I'll be watching very closely every choice that is made and every "me" label that pops in my thoughts waiting for your insights.
Thanks again for your help :)
Leo

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Eloratea » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:06 pm

Hi, I finally reached my destination and an internet access..
Great :)
No, you're right, it is impossible that thoughs are me or part of me. I am what perceives them. Thoughts come and go permanently. I am what stays
Let's zoom in a bit here. Thoughts come and go, yes and there is something that stays. So it feels and it is comparable with sky and clouds. Can you describe more this permanence, what it is prior to label „I am that“? Is it personal?
Here and now, I'm having trouble finding the sense of self at all. There is physical sensations, emotions, thoughts, but I can't really find something else.
Isn't there - in here and now - something between and behind the sensations, this feeling of aliveness? Maybe something we talked about above?
And if there is no self in here and now in direct experience where it could be? Is anything outside of that real, or it is just part of thoughts and imagination?
No, the sensations are juste there, the association is made by the mind. When I watch them closely, sometimes they disappear, sometimes get more intense and turns into a somewhat constricting feeling associated with fear. Maybe something I'm afraid to let go?
No „maybes“ :) Is there a fear? Is there something that needs to be guarded by the fear?

It feels a bit strange.. I can get I'm not the character though. The character is made of memories and reactionnal patterns that just manifets without any control in reactions to external events or to thoughts. But if I'm not "something" playing it, I can't see what I am. And I feel that 'I am' something, even if I'm not sure of what it is..
Of course, there is a feeling of being something. And of course you can't see what you are :)
Here we are at the point of this conversation. What we have made and most of the people since early childhood is labeled this feeling of aliveness, of awareness, this human experience with „I“. And somehow begin to believe that behind that label is hiding some real separate entity. Someone having this experience. On one side “I” and on the other everything else, life. But one focused, honest look and it is obvious that it is just a unitary experience in which arise different thoughts and „I“ is just one of them. There is one life flow, no gap in it.
Can you see it?
This is tricky... when I try to look at "what is observed now" my awareness keep changing focus very rapidly, driven by external stimuli or thoughts. So it seems then I can't control it, but the experience is very different from "normal", daily awareness when I feel I can control what I observe..
Yes, when not paying attention it seems so.
Feeling that we make choices stays further. It stays even the sense of self, but once you zoom in and see no substantiality of it, it makes a difference, even when zoom out again.
Just look and see :)

Love

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Leo » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:17 am

Hi Eloratea :)
come and go, yes and there is something that stays. So it feels and it is comparable with sky and clouds. Can you describe more this permanence, what it is prior to label „I am that“? Is it personal?
There is a feeling of observation first. Like someone observing the thoughts. Then, after a while, there is a feeling of opening (?) and deeper, there is silence, peace, and (sounds strange but I really feel that) an interior smile.
Isn't there - in here and now - something between and behind the sensations, this feeling of aliveness? Maybe something we talked about above?
And if there is no self in here and now in direct experience where it could be? Is anything outside of that real, or it is just part of thoughts and imagination?
In here and now, there is this feeling of presence/silence I talked a little bit above. Also, the experience of the environnement is different, like closer, more immediate.
I agree that nothing can happen if not here and now. But what is a bit confusing to me is that memories and character traits for example, are not there in the now, however they do sometimes manifest, so they are somehow real?
No, the sensations are juste there, the association is made by the mind. When I watch them closely, sometimes they disappear, sometimes get more intense and turns into a somewhat constricting feeling associated with fear. Maybe something I'm afraid to let go?
No „maybes“ :) Is there a fear? Is there something that needs to be guarded by the fear?
There is definitely a fear. Something related to a danger or a loss. Associated to a great suffering. I could'nt get any closer of it for now.
But one focused, honest look and it is obvious that it is just a unitary experience in which arise different thoughts and „I“ is just one of them. There is one life flow, no gap in it.
Can you see it?
Honestly, not yet. I do feel closer to the environnement when experiencing the Now, but it's how unitary I get for the moment.

But I'm looking as much as possible.
Looking forward for your comments and questions

Leo

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Eloratea » Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:08 am

There is a feeling of observation first. Like someone observing the thoughts. Then, after a while, there is a feeling of opening (?) and deeper, there is silence, peace, and (sounds strange but I really feel that) an interior smile.
Doesn't sound strange :) Is it personal? Self including?

In here and now, there is this feeling of presence/silence I talked a little bit above. Also, the experience of the environnement is different, like closer, more immediate.
I agree that nothing can happen if not here and now. But what is a bit confusing to me is that memories and character traits for example, are not there in the now, however they do sometimes manifest, so they are somehow real?
What are memories? Thoughts appearing in now?
Character has its traits, yes they manifest, it is real, like a script that is being played. But is there some real, separate entity behind them?
There is an onion, there are layers making it appear, but is there anything inside, in the center?
This is similar.
There is definitely a fear. Something related to a danger or a loss. Associated to a great suffering. I could'nt get any closer of it for now.
Ok, don’t need to make special effort. When it comes just stay with it. What is in danger, what can be lost?
Honestly, not yet. I do feel closer to the environnement when experiencing the Now, but it's how unitary I get for the moment.
What does it mean to experience now? How can something that is not now be experienced at all? Thoughts are coming and going also in now. Difference is just – if there is an unconditional belief in the thoughts in the story they tell?

So, this is not chasing some special state but seeing what is here and now, no matter what thoughts and feelings are arising in it, and what stories they tell.
Is there “you” here and now?
If not sure, describe the actual experience as it is, with all elements going on.

Stay well!
:)

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Leo » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:01 am

Hi!
Sorry for the delay, the end of my trip was very busy, and the jetlag is pretty bad this way...
Doesn't sound strange :) Is it personal? Self including?
The silence is definitely not personal. It's just like empty space. The "observing feeling" feels personal since there is the impression that someone is looking. The "smile feeling" I'm not sure, it is a bit diffuse but often it provokes a physical smile, so I'm a bit confused there..
What are memories? Thoughts appearing in now?
Character has its traits, yes they manifest, it is real, like a script that is being played. But is there some real, separate entity behind them?
Memories are data from previous experiences stored in the brain. They manifest as thoughts. They don't need someone to exist, as character traits that are formed from genetic background and in response to external stimuli. Both cannot be controled in their existence or manifestation. But they do feel like being part of a "me". It seems to me it is not so much because of the thoughts they generate, than from the feeling of "me-ness", of home, of familiarity, that emanates from them.
What does it mean to experience now? How can something that is not now be experienced at all? Thoughts are coming and going also in now. Difference is just – if there is an unconditional belief in the thoughts in the story they tell?
You're right, everything is experienced in the now. What I meant by "experiencing the Now", is being present to what is and not following stories of the mind. And yes, it feels exactly that the difference is whether the thoughts are believed or just observed. And indeed, the belief that they are true is unconditional and quite innate/natural, and it requires a little observing effort to see it is not so.
So, this is not chasing some special state but seeing what is here and now, no matter what thoughts and feelings are arising in it, and what stories they tell.
Is there “you” here and now?
If not sure, describe the actual experience as it is, with all elements going on.
The experience goes like this: the experience that thoughts somehow detach from the mind and are free to go, and then are observed. Then tensions rises, particularly in the head as if something tried to grab the thoughts, to prevent them from flowing naturally. It manifest particularly around the eyeballs and in the jaws. There is sometime fear, of loosing control, of what the thoughts might say, of getting free and paradoxically at the same time of not being able to get free. Sometimes sadness, as if everything I like was false and was about to disappear. The tensions at least partially ease, and by doing so liberate some kind of energy that I feel going down in the body, toward the feet. After, silence and peace begin to appear, along with a kind of vibration feeling in the body. Sometimes there is still identification with more subtle thoughts, sometimes with a kind of density in the body full of "me-ish" feelings. But it's hard seeing if there is a real "me" or not...

It is also hard not falling asleep right now, I'll try to post longer on this last point later, it feels important.

Again, thanks for your help :)

Leo

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Eloratea » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:11 am

Hi Leo,
good to hear from you again.
The silence is definitely not personal. It's just like empty space. The "observing feeling" feels personal since there is the impression that someone is looking.
But is there someone looking or it is just looking? And smiling :)
The "smile feeling" I'm not sure, it is a bit diffuse but often it provokes a physical smile, so I'm a bit confused there..
Why it is confusing that inner smiling produces physical smiling? :) It is pretty normal life expression, I would say. We used to believe that someone, some separate entity, self is needed to do things, but it is just an assumption. There is an unbreakable chain of causes and reactions in a life network. And without thoughts like “me” and “I did this” and belief in them nothing would be personal.
Just observe little bit deeper. Do you have any control on actions or the thoughts just suggest so. But actually do you control thoughts or they also just happen. Do the decisions and choices also just happen due to the incomprehensible cause and effect connections?
Memories are data from previous experiences stored in the brain. They manifest as thoughts.
Actually, they are thoughts. And if you look, think, they can often be different about the same past event depending on the current circumstances and moods. So, now we don’t know for sure what really happened, if happened at all, just there are some thoughts suggesting us this or that.
But they do feel like being part of a "me". It seems to me it is not so much because of the thoughts they generate, than from the feeling of "me-ness", of home, of familiarity, that emanates from them.
Sense of self, of being, is natural and it stays. It’s feeling of aliveness and unique life manifestation. But without thoughts, without the story about “me” look what happens with the feeling of “me-ness”. Without belief in existence of solid, separate “me” does that feeling change a bit in texture, in lightness?
And yes, it feels exactly that the difference is whether the thoughts are believed or just observed. And indeed, the belief that they are true is unconditional and quite innate/natural, and it requires a little observing effort to see it is not so.
Yes, it does :) But look what happens if the thoughts are just thoughts, not “my” thoughts.
We are looking here especially in reality of content of one thought “I”.

The experience goes like this: the experience that thoughts somehow detach from the mind and are free to go, and then are observed. Then tensions rises, particularly in the head as if something tried to grab the thoughts, to prevent them from flowing naturally. It manifest particularly around the eyeballs and in the jaws. There is sometime fear, of loosing control, of what the thoughts might say, of getting free and paradoxically at the same time of not being able to get free. Sometimes sadness, as if everything I like was false and was about to disappear. The tensions at least partially ease, and by doing so liberate some kind of energy that I feel going down in the body, toward the feet. After, silence and peace begin to appear, along with a kind of vibration feeling in the body. Sometimes there is still identification with more subtle thoughts, sometimes with a kind of density in the body full of "me-ish" feelings. But it's hard seeing if there is a real "me" or not...
Ok. Here I mean in the first place on pure perception happening right now. Like body sitting, reading/writing happening, fingers typing, breathing, looking through the window…thoughts passing by, some sensations in the body arising…

Till later,
love

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Leo » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:42 am

Dear Eloratea,
But is there someone looking or it is just looking? And smiling :)
I'm beginning to see that what makes a sense of self comes from the thoughts and that without thought there is no sense of self. Every time so far I felt that "someone" was there looking, I could see it was just a thought. But who was seeing that? Who sees the Seer seeing? another level of thoughts, more sublte, that you talked about earlier? pure awareness? nothing? I'm not completely sure yet.
Do you have any control on actions or the thoughts just suggest so
Every action I watched so far seemed to come from nowhere, without anyone giving orders. But it's VERY difficult so far to accept there is no control of actions whatsoever, it so totally different from everything you are thaught to believe.. I cannot see a self in a lot of the actions "I" do, but how can I see there is no self possible at all?
Concerning thoughts, I have already seen twice in particularly insighfull moments that I could'nt possibly control them,
but now, it's just knowledge/memory, I don't see it all the time.
Without belief in existence of solid, separate “me” does that feeling change a bit in texture, in lightness?


In here and now, after a while, that feeling seems less focal, more diffuse, like a tickling sensation along the body.
Ok. Here I mean in the first place on pure perception happening right now. Like body sitting, reading/writing happening, fingers typing, breathing, looking through the window…thoughts passing by, some sensations in the body arising…
Ok like :
reading your question, blinking, fingers typings, earing a cat play in the armchair, fingers typing again, mistake correction, thoughts about going to bed, not knowing what to add, feeling slight pain in right temple, heavy breathing, warm computer under my hands, thoughts about perception being repetitive, another blank, sight, deep inhale, earing a cat walk on the floor, looked for a better word for floor, didn't find, sound of clicking keys, cats mawwing for attention, thoughts about going to play mouse-catching with him, tiredness, another blank, longer, just with presence, earing the blowing sound of computer fan, another cat desperate call, decision to stop for now.

Is that closer to what you wanted me to describe?

"see" you soon :)
Leo

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Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Eloratea » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:46 am

I'm beginning to see that what makes a sense of self comes from the thoughts and that without thought there is no sense of self. Every time so far I felt that "someone" was there looking, I could see it was just a thought. But who was seeing that? Who sees the Seer seeing? another level of thoughts, more subtle, that you talked about earlier? pure awareness? nothing? I'm not completely sure yet.
Thought on top of the thought? All in this - what is; awareness, aliveness…
Every action I watched so far seemed to come from nowhere, without anyone giving orders. But it's VERY difficult so far to accept there is no control of actions whatsoever, it so totally different from everything you are thought to believe.
But what is belief? :) Assuming, filling the gaps of the unknown, but it is not knowing, not seeing. So, no belief is true. Dare to check what is true.
I cannot see a self in a lot of the actions "I" do, but how can I see there is no self possible at all?
Actions are being done and than by thoughts attributed to someone.
When body moves, we say - I move. When thoughts are passing we say that time passed; but, that is lots of abstractions and interpretations. Now we just look into simple direct experience, detangling what really happens - from the thought-interpretation of it.
Concerning thoughts, I have already seen twice in particularly insighfull moments that I couldn’t possibly control them, but now, it's just knowledge/memory, I don't see it all the time.
It is a bit like you would say you can’t always see the stuff in the wardrobe; but anytime you open it you see the things and you know than that it is there; also you can always check if there is doubt, by opening.

Can you control any of the thoughts? Right now? What makes thoughts being “your” thoughts? Are “you” thinking them or they just come and go; whether causing some action or not, believed or not?
The feeling of being in control stays together with the sense of self, more or less. But anytime, when really looked, it is seen that controller, doer, thinker can’t be found. Nowhere in direct experience; Which is the only relevant place, actually.
And seeing it permeates further the whole experiencing.
In here and now, after a while, that feeling seems less focal, more diffuse, like a tickling sensation along the body.
Is the feeling of self clear, with sharp borders somewhere, at or around the body? Or it is fussy, not really detectable where “me” ends and rest begins? Close your eyes and try to feel it. Where is “me”? :)
Ok like :
reading your question, blinking, fingers typings, earing a cat play in the armchair, fingers typing again, mistake correction, thoughts about going to bed, not knowing what to add, feeling slight pain in right temple, heavy breathing, warm computer under my hands, thoughts about perception being repetitive, another blank, sight, deep inhale, earing a cat walk on the floor, looked for a better word for floor, didn't find, sound of clicking keys, cats mawwing for attention, thoughts about going to play mouse-catching with him, tiredness, another blank, longer, just with presence, earing the blowing sound of computer fan, another cat desperate call, decision to stop for now.
Is that closer to what you wanted me to describe?
Yes, it is.
I wanted you to see if it would be more accurate to say that there is you having the experience, or that there is just an experience with various elements, processes going on, here and now?

Warm greetings and looking forward to your replies!

User avatar
Leo
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Ready to wake up from the dream of self

Postby Leo » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:02 am

Dear Eloratea,
What makes thoughts being “your” thoughts?
The belief that there is someone called "I" that is thinking them.
Can you control any of the thoughts? Right now?
Right now, thoughts just flow constantly, how could they be controlled? And me not being my thoughts, who could do that?
wanted you to see if it would be more accurate to say that there is you having the experience, or that there is just an experience with various elements, processes going on, here and now?
I'm not sure I got it, but what I did realize, is that perception is not continuous as thought before. Attention, the mind focus, constantly moves from one object to another. It seems it goes toward what moves. Or like if every perception of every sense was inconscioulsy rated for interest(emotional impact?) and that attention automatically goes to the more "interesting" one. And the deeper I looked, the smaller the attention span was. It seemed imposible to perceive 2 things at the same time, the attention just constantly flickered from one to the other, frome thoughts, to sight, to hear, to thoughts again, etc.. So it seemed, even if I don't really integrates that, that there is no one who pays attention, attention just goes by, by itself.

It is getting a little bit frustrating : from everything I saw, the mind concludes that "I "can't exist but still I don't believe that, like I'm missing something..
I guess that constantly looking for the "I" in everything that is done/thought is the right thing to do for now
But who is guessing anyway? :)

See you soon!
Love

Leo


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