Just not sure - is there someone who can guide me please?

[potofbasil]

I've read lots of threads and am halfway through the Gateleless Gatecrashers, and sometimes I get a clear sense of what it is all about and then I lose it. I'd really like a guide please. Anne.

[GrahamB]

Hi Anne.

Would you please relate something about what is happening for you and then I have something to go on about 'where you are' and we can begin.

With best wishes,
Graham

[potofbasil]

Hello Graham,
I feel so close to getting this. I get that My personality is simply thoughts, memories, beliefs and ideas based on past experience and has no substance. Also I get that nothing is owned by people because. ...... I wrote that part about owning stuff, and then I lost it completely.... that's what keeps happening to me. I get it when I'm sitting reading or meditating, but then when I try to expand on the feeling or put it into words it goes.

[potofbasil]

I've just realised that I capitalised MY personality. That was a mistake! Strange that a mistake should happen on that particular word. It's drawn my attention to the fact that for my whole life I have felt different to other people, always believing that they had a solid sense of who they were whilst I was continually trying to create an acceptable self or personality. I can remember clearly as a teenager feeling quite inadequate for not having opinions, so I tried hard to formulate them so as to be socially acceptable. Looking back I can see that was the beginning of arrogance and only served to separate me from others even more. I've spent the last 15 years actively releasing judgements and opinions and seeking out beliefs that I no longer want to hold. Knowing now that there is no self in control feels wonderfully freeing. Who or what is thinking all these thoughts - Where do they arise from?

[GrahamB]

Hi Anne. Computer problems here. Pretty sure I will be able to reply within 24 hours though. Sorry about this, Graham

[potofbasil]

hi Graham,
That's ok - I'm looking forward to your reply. :)

[GrahamB]

Hi Anne,

I have now installed another computer monitor, so am operational. Sorry about the delay in responding. I aim to respond at least once a day usually.

You said in your first post that "sometimes" you get "a clear sense of what it is all about," and in your last post you said "Knowing now that there is no self in control feels wonderfully freeing." No one knows that knowing you talk of as 'you' do not exist; it is just clear that there is no one there, that all that is happening is a stream of thought/sensation.

I get that nothing is owned by people because. ...... I wrote that part about owning stuff, and then I lost it completely.... that's what keeps happening to me. I get it when I'm sitting reading or meditating, but then when I try to expand on the feeling or put it into words it goes.

It is difficult to put this clarity into words, as it requires clarity to be described, and how can it really, when it is beyond description. Such description requires a little bit of fibbing. Perhaps you are trying to be too honest, and the totally honest thing to do on this subject is to be silent.

Do you really think you go in and out of clarity? I mean, how can you, unless you go into imagination/thought, and then 'you' are only imagining this aren't 'you'?

I was continually trying to create an acceptable self or personality.

If being totally honest, how could 'you' possibly do this?

Who or what is thinking all these thoughts - Where do they arise from?

Any notion of who/what is thinking or where thought comes from is more thought arising. Thought only knows it's own content. Any explanation I may give would only be another thought story.


Best wishes,
Graham

[potofbasil]

Hi Graham, thanks for your reply - is good that you are back online.

I think you are right, I am trying to express the unexpressable. Yes the coming and going of clarity could be because I slip into thought without noticing - that makes sense -and then I feel as if I've 'lost' it and try to 'think' it back. Thinking seems to be something that happens on its own, but then there is the 'noticer' or 'observer' of the thoughts. i've always thought of that as a deeper, more connected part of me - now I'm wondering if that is another layer of thought.

Of course I couldn't really create 'an acceptable self' - I never managed to! It was just constant thought and judgement and fear. I understand that I tried to make a self because I thought I ought to have one to be noticed and accepted in the world.

I dont really understand what you mean with this quote:

"No one knows that knowing you talk of as 'you' do not exist; it is just clear that there is no one there, that all that is happening is a stream of thought/sensation"

I'm wondering now if perhaps I don't really get as much as I thought I did.

I know there is a body with a brain. Also I know there is awareness and sensations that are experienced in the body and many many thoughts that arise. Action is the result of thoughts. When I say there is no self in control and that feels freeing, I mean that I used to believe that my survival and life circumstances were my responibility and that I had to make it happen. Now I see that life lives me -that is what feels so free.

Do you think I am on the right track? I really do appreciate your help Graham.

Best wishes, Anne

[GrahamB]

Hi Anne.

I dont really understand what you mean with this quote:

"No one knows that knowing you talk of as 'you' do not exist; it is just clear that there is no one there, that all that is happening is a stream of thought/sensation"

Here 'I' observe, for example: fingers typing, nose sniffing, eyes blinking, body going to bathroom, washing hands, thought - must get birthday card for Val, thought - is that a rat scratching in the wall..., mild annoyance, filling electric jug, etc. In other words a 'stream' of thoughts and sensations but no I in evidence. A thought could come up in this stream, and then a thought may follow and claim that I thought it, but that 'I' thought would just be another thought in the thought-sensation stream.

Hope this clarifies what I was getting at. If further questions, could you please have a go at what you think is meant; in general it being a good idea to attempt to answer your own questions here.

I think you are right, I am trying to express the unexpressable.

And we can only attempt to do that can't we. But fun trying.

Yes the coming and going of clarity could be because I slip into thought without noticing - that makes sense -and then I feel as if I've 'lost' it and try to 'think' it back. Thinking seems to be something that happens on its own,

Who/what could possibly slip into thought, whether noticed or not? Thought needs no thinker.

An example: Clarity, then a series of thoughts and sensations, then the thought "oh I have lost clarity", another thought "I'll try to get it back again", then emotion, etc. All happening with no I at all, only the thought 'I' from time to time.

Notice that you do not "slip into thought without noticing", that is just another thought arising. 'You' are not present to notice anything in the thought-sensation stream. There is just noticing.

but then there is the 'noticer' or 'observer' of the thoughts. i've always thought of that as a deeper, more connected part of me - now I'm wondering if that is another layer of thought.

Yes, just noticing, no noticer; the noticer being just another 'position' for the ego (thought-to-be self) to occupy, to exist as, to continue - albeit a more subtle 'position'. Positions being positions of thought - in other words, stories, depicting a self in some location.

Thoughts do not come in, or have, layers; they do not hide anything. If it is thought they do - another thought story arising.

I know there is a body with a brain. Also I know there is awareness and sensations that are experienced in the body and many many thoughts that arise. Action is the result of thoughts.

This sounds like a thought story. Exactly who/what knows this?

Sensations arise from time to time, including body sensations, but how can a body be found, located, without a thought story? And how is it known that movement derives from thought? From the I thought? Movement is another sensation in the 'stream' isn't it?

When I say there is no self in control and that feels freeing, I mean that I used to believe that my survival and life circumstances were my responibility and that I had to make it happen. Now I see that life lives me -that is what feels so free.

Good, but life is not living you is it?. You only exist in imagination don't you? Freedom has no sense of self, and if such a sense arises, that is just another arising sensation in the moment. It does not indicate an actual you, does it? Let's be clear here.

Do you think I am on the right track?

Isn't this just another doubtful thought arising? But there is no real doubt is there? Just an imagined doubt that arises from time to time - and thus, no real track at all.

I really do appreciate your help Graham.

Pleased to be conversing with you Anne.

[potofbasil]

Hello again Graham,

Thank you for the clarification. I realise that I what I thought I knew was only thought.
I've spent a lot of today observing just what is going on for me, and thought is all there is. Thoughts, then thoughts about those thoughts. Sensations and thoughts about the sensations. Movement and thoughts about movement.
Just thought.

Anne :)

[GrahamB]

Hi there Anne.

Is thought all there is? What about observing.... What about directly observable reality 'before' it is thought about... What about seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting...

Do you observe that you are through the gate?


Relate fully and clearly the experience there please.

[potofbasil]

Hi Graham,

Is thought all there is? What about observing.... What about directly observable reality 'before' it is thought about... What about seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting...

That is a good question! Observing is there and then thoughts about the observing appear. Images appear then thought comes in with judgement or stories about what is seen. Hearing, smelling, touching tasting all have become highly prominent at this moment. Sound is there and then there is thought about the sound - the same is true for taste smell and touch. As This pear is bitten into there is cold, sweet, juicy sensation on the tongue and then thought appears judging sensation as pleasurable and naming it as cold, sweet and juicy. Thought seems to appear immediately after sensation.
As typing occurs thought immediately judges and more thought replaces. Thought, thought and more thought.

Do you observe that you are through the gate?

I'm really not sure Graham. Somehow being is enough just now. No self to observe. Feeling lots of gratitude to you for helping me see that 'I' dont KNOW anything - it is thought arising and thought is not 'me' knowing.

Still not sure if I observe that I am through the gate. I will sit with the question and see what arises.

With love, Anne

[GrahamB]

Is thought all there is? What about observing.... What about directly observable reality 'before' it is thought about... What about seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting...

That is a good question! Observing is there and then thoughts about the observing appear. Images appear then thought comes in with judgement or stories about what is seen. Hearing, smelling, touching tasting all have become highly prominent at this moment. Sound is there and then there is thought about the sound - the same is true for taste smell and touch. As This pear is bitten into there is cold, sweet, juicy sensation on the tongue and then thought appears judging sensation as pleasurable and naming it as cold, sweet and juicy. Thought seems to appear immediately after sensation.
As typing occurs thought immediately judges and more thought replaces. Thought, thought and more thought.

Good!

Just to clarify: thought can also appear before sensation eg, thought "John should not have done that" and annoyance or some such may arise. Often thought-sensation-thought-sensation... arise in a chain. The chain can be investigated by really looking at say the current emotion to see the cause thought of that emotion, and then that thought can be really looked at and the cause emotion/sensation seen, and so on.... This thought-sensation causal chain can be believed in or just observed.

Do you observe that you are through the gate?

I'm really not sure Graham. Somehow being is enough just now. No self to observe. Feeling lots of gratitude to you for helping me see that 'I' dont KNOW anything - it is thought arising and thought is not 'me' knowing.

So what is that I that is not sure? Isn't that what you think you are trying to 'worm' its way back into being, or continue its existence? How can it possibly succeed?

Are you expecting no doubting thoughts? - another 'place' for the 'expectant' I to locate itself. It is very wily. Watching it's wiles really hones those observing skills!

Still not sure if I observe that I am through the gate. I will sit with the question and see what arises.

Good idea! ...Watch those doubting ideas/thoughts!

Come back and relate whatever you find in your own good time Anne. I will be here.

Love,
Graham

[potofbasil]

Thank you Graham,

The chain can be investigated by really looking at say the current emotion to see the cause thought of that emotion, and then that thought can be really looked at and the cause emotion/sensation seen, and so on.... This thought-sensation causal chain can be believed in or just observed.

I've experienced conflict today at work, and It seems that 'self' has jumped in to defend 'itself'. It seems to be a perfect opportunity for investigation of thought and emotions and the 'wilyness' of self!

There is observation to do but ( wanting to say 'my' head is aching - but who is the 'me' that owns it?! ). Tomorrow is a day off and there will be time to sit with the feelings and watch what is happening.

Thank you for being there.

Love Anne

[GrahamB]

Thank you for updating me Anne.

I've experienced conflict today at work, and It seems that 'self' has jumped in to defend 'itself'. It seems to be a perfect opportunity for investigation of thought and emotions and the 'wilyness' of self!

Yes, a good opportunity!

Observing that conflict sometimes happens between differing points of view; none of them really belonging to anyone.

There is observation to do but ( wanting to say 'my' head is aching - but who is the 'me' that owns it?! ). Tomorrow is a day off and there will be time to sit with the feelings and watch what is happening.

Noting that thoughts and sensations associated with head aches, conflicts, sitting, are all part of the stream; no 'special time' really being required to notice this.

Preferences continue, but no one that prefers them.

Thank you for being there.

Gratitude here too Anne.

Wishing you a peaceful day tomorrow,
Graham