My views don't feel reliable/believable

[Vasvi2004]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have struggled a lot with myself, after initial insights I refused to see that I am actually without answers and weak(fragile), and I as a person can't really gain any truth. And seeing that finally, ended up being a relaxation. So this feels... true? I can't seem to put words to it it feels way too obvious. Instinctually this feels obvious.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am curious and I wanna kind of go deeper, not that I can go deeper in the thinking sense, like I feel the meaninglessness of saying "i wanna go deeper". because I don't know where the deeper is. but the obviousness is there as i said. I wanna give this fragile very very scared and defensive sense of self some exploration. It's weird to not even know who i am. that's weird.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect some pointing? I am having trouble with inquiries a bit. like I get confused and I have noticed even a slight involvement of another person in direct conversation may it be text or phone, a "guide" or whatever we can call it, someone who is "walked the path" (it's funny because I can only mention it conceptually, I don't know what this is) helps a LOT. More than me practising on my own. Because I have no idea what I'm looking for and I'm kinda tired of getting distracted on my own as I said.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
umm it's been confusing and disorienting and painful for the most part. a lot of crying and wanting to have a breakthrough by holding on to the idea of a breakthrough, a lot of looking for answers in the thoughts, a lot of holding on to the self. I have not enjoyed the past four years. I have not enjoyed being a spiritual person. Only in the last month after a big shock in life did i snap out of the story of me a little and realised this goes beyond what I'm looking at. So i messaged a bunch of people and someone directed me to the 4th and 5th fetters, and that turned out to be the first helpful practice I have done in years. I did it for around 25 days and then got curious about other fetters. Read a little about the first fetter and felt the instant relief of finally questioning the almighty self I had been trying to wake up. I was thinking "I didn't know we could look there". I really didn't, even though I had heard the no self message a million times, it just never seemed that obvious. I couldn't look into it much, i guess the self mechanism started getting scared, but it left it's trace and has kind of redirected me in a way, but I am still suffering of course. and i haven't actually seen for myself that there is no self, but i inquire.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[graceabounds]

Hello,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. I’m happy to be present with you in this inquiry if you are still interested in looking…

-Becca

[Vasvi2004]

Hi, I am not sure this is the right place to reply but yes I am still interested.

[graceabounds]

Yes, this is the right place. :)

It’s weird to not even know who i am.

Yes it is. Beautiful. Stay there. Don’t move.
This is the edge… what’s raw, alive, unprotected.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without all the thought-stories. For this process to work you must answer with 100% honesty, without relying on thought, philosophy, imagination or memory -- just reporting your direct experience.

Here’s a simple exercise to begin:

Please read and say to yourself several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

Don't try to get anything right, just share what is seen, unfiltered. Generally this process will be driven by seeing what is already happening, what is already the case. What is effortlessly seen while engaging questions and exercises is what is important. What you actually write me is secondary to that.

-Becca

[Vasvi2004]

The first thing that popped up was, “wait, if there’s no one, then this time-bomb of conditional safety I seem to be sitting on is… thoughts and sensations. if there is no one then no one is unsafe and in a constant state of threat as apparently perceived.

I wrote this above a few hours back and I sat back down just now. Recognising all of this and very naturally the curiosity arose, “what if i don’t have to ever figure out this world of threats?” A little relief because i feel like i’ve been given the choice to not believe into that whole show i keep watching called “Vasvi under threat”. If there is no separate self I have tuned into some random radio channel and decided that was my life. It brings me back to this crazy familiar intimacy. Like pure being.

Said the sentence a few times again, it is making me very directly question past and future. Like very very viscerally. Not in a thought way. Like in a possibility of dropping past and future way.
Said it a few times again. The opening into the possibility that past future projections dont have to be clung to constantly (that is what the sentence is doing) is relaxing and relieving.

[graceabounds]

Hello Vasvi,

Excellent start.

The first thing that popped up was, “wait, if there’s no one, then this time-bomb of conditional safety I seem to be sitting on is… thoughts and sensations. if there is no one then no one is unsafe and in a constant state of threat as apparently perceived.

Yes. This is where the illusion cracks.

Sitting in a room, curtains closed, you wonder what the weather is like outside. You can think about it, look it up on the internet, watch the forecast on TV, call your mother and ask her - or you can simply open the curtains and have a look.

So tell me now:
Where is the one that’s unsafe? Right now. In this moment. Look around the room. Can you find ‘threat’ anywhere?

Go deeper.

If there is no separate self I have tuned into some random radio channel and decided that was my life.

That’s perfect. But now don’t make that poetic, go literal: In this exact moment, are you choosing to tune in? Are you the tuner, the signal, the static, or just the noticing of it?

Said the sentence a few times again, it is making me very directly question past and future. Like very very viscerally. Not in a thought way. Like in a possibility of dropping past and future way.

Yes. There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?


When the sentence “there is no separate self, there never was, there never will be” hits, and the machinery of future/past collapses…what is left?

-Becca

[Vasvi2004]

hi, so the believed sense of self, is never actually seen. It's always in the thoughts about the past and the future. i saw it peripherally for a bit, when I tried to look into, who is unsafe, who is here? where am i? basically looking for a self. but then there was a genuine "if" feeling, what if thoughts are completely lying about there being a separate Vasvi?
Also, not accepting any thought as the answer brings up this "NO", of fear. So that was weird. But then I saw the believing into the thought around this "NO", which is something like " I can't handle this". So now the "I can't handle this" isn't believed, but the fear is going wild in the body, as I opened up the can lid by not accepting/owning the "NO" of the mind. But there is less care about what happens to the one experiencing this fear, seemingly. I don't know it all feels veryyy blurred on the edges, like the solid concepts kinda started dismantling into random content. the mind is disoriented. it's honestly intense but the insight that the self-image, self-referencing is kinda imagined and ... isn't what I thought it is combined with the dropping of the belief of not being able to handle fear, it's very much not a belief into panic story the mind is muttering. even though heart is physically uncomfortable, there's a sense of curiosity, and that no one is "handling" the fear and the fear related sensations. the curiosity is making me want to let myself be a fog, i clearly am not the base of myself, so even if i am a fog, then so be it. maybe what's not a fog, what's permanent and what i actually am will become clearer if this fog is seen as unclear

[graceabounds]

Yes, this is the edge right here.

what if thoughts are completely lying about there being a separate Vasvi?

You have already largely seen through this illusion but let’s make sure to completely prove it out since it is foundational to this process.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

even though heart is physically uncomfortable, there's a sense of curiosity, and that no one is "handling" the fear and the fear related sensations. the curiosity is making me want to let myself be a fog, i clearly am not the base of myself, so even if i am a fog, then so be it. maybe what's not a fog, what's permanent and what i actually am will become clearer if this fog is seen as unclear

Yes, just be with this sensation in the heart with the spirit curiosity. Look around, inside and behind it. Be with it. What has it been protecting?

You said it clearly: you are not the base of yourself. That fantasy of there being a stable, clear “you” is the very illusion that’s dissolving. The discomfort in the heart is not a problem. That’s just the body registering the breakdown of the control fantasy. That someone is there to hold this, to do this, to guide this.

But what you’ve noticed is there’s no one handling the fear. No manager. No pilot. The machinery is humming, the fog is moving, but no one is at the wheel.

So here’s the challenge: don’t try to become clear.

Let the fog remain fog. Let the heart contract. Let the fear move untouched. If there’s clarity to arise, it won’t be yours. You won’t arrive at it.

Try this now:
1. Sit with the heart discomfort without naming it. Don’t go into “it’s fear” or “it’s trauma” or “this must be healed.” Stay at the raw edge. No interpretation.
2. Watch for a movement toward control. Toward managing or fixing. It can be so subtle, like a slight recoil, a posture shift, a breath adjustment, a new thought.
3. Interrupt it. Don’t do anything. Let the fog thicken. Let sensation remain undefined.

Can you see, right now, that what you are does not depend on clarity? That the fog itself is appearing to something that doesn’t need to know or define?

-Becca

[Vasvi2004]

Hi, um. I’m really tired of suffering. Like. To the bone tired. I did notice my thoughts and I did it many times. The taste changed from a sort of relaxing practice to hard, crying, emotions revealing themselves. To a lot of exposing of identity hidden away in suffering and emotions. To then really real sort of intimacy. Like very intimate. Like this is how it should be this is what’s real. To then just a BAM of oh… i can’t do this lol. Angry and tired. To now writing this and sort of noticing that no one in particular is angry or tired. I’m gonna die trying. For fuck’s sake. No is there to help. The possibility of not ending this suffering and living my life like this is just beyond depressing.

[Vasvi2004]

Maybe I’m not made for this you know? Why am I forcing something that’s not possible. Like okay, I have a lifetime of suffering ahead of me. Let me just accept that. A life time of getting caught up in thoughts. Fine okay. I’ll find a way to survive through that. Just tell me it’s not possible and I’ll try to move on with my life. No more spirituality. Just… trying to earn money and making it day by day. Doing whatever everyone does. As best as i can.

[graceabounds]

Whoa there. Stop.

That voice (“maybe I’m not made for this”) is the final trick of the seeking mind. It’s the desperate cry of the illusion defending itself as it dies. It wants a conclusion. A role. Even the role of “I’ll just suffer forever” is safer to it than annihilation.

But what if I told you: there is no “you” to fail. No one who was ever going to make it. No one to fall short.
Just a momentum. Just thought. Just sensation. Just this… raw, unfiltered. No you.

You don’t need to stop thoughts.
You don’t need to fix emotions.
You don’t need to achieve peace.
You don’t even need to “wake up.”

There is nothing to attain, because there is no one here to attain it.

Look now. In this moment can you find a single shred of evidence that “you” are thinking your thoughts? Not the story. Not the narration. The mechanics. What’s actually happening?

Sit in the midst of your tiredness, your despair, your surrender.
Feel the tightness.
The sinking.
The collapsing in the gut.

Don’t resist it. Don’t fix it. Dive into it. Let it kill ‘you’
Because what dies in that fire is not you. It’s the ghost. The image. The imagined seeker.

Because here’s the twist: you’re already not here. You were never here.

And what remains when that’s seen? Not bliss. Not perfection. Just this. Just life. As it is.
So go ahead… take the next breath.
No one is doing it!

To now writing this and sort of noticing that no one in particular is angry or tired.

Where’s the one who suffers?

Find them.
Right now. Not later. Not after more trying. Look now.

[Vasvi2004]

How do I sit in the despair because, hope catches on so fast. The hope that I’ll wake up. The hope that one day this suffering will make sense. And then I have a reason not to look anymore because what is greater than love and oh love will have my back and love will wake me up. (You see why I think this isn’t possible for me? I’m half convinced when I send press and you read this you’re gonna think I’m too thick headed too)

[Vasvi2004]

Plus when you say look for a self I’m just dumb founded. Like I kinda can feel what you’re pointing at but I do not have any vested interested in looking there. Like it’s just not serving me? Like, yes of course I am curious too. But when I’m suffering (which is a lot, I have a difficult time being a human, I am NOT easygoing), it’s kinda like, no that’s not the answer because it will make the problem look like not a problem. Like… if i look there, and there is no me, then who’s gonna solve this fucking problem?????

[graceabounds]

Hi Vasvi,

Yes, exactly. You’re seeing it.

Like… if I look there, and there is no me, then who’s gonna solve this fucking problem????

That’s the belief. That you—a separate someone—needs to stay in charge to fix this. But be honest: has that “you” ever succeeded at solving it? Has it worked? Or is that the same voice that’s been panicking, suffering, hoping, despairing been looping endlessly?

Look closer.

Hope catches on so fast.

Yes. That’s a seduction. Hope is a strategy to delay the looking. Because hope says, “This will be okay later.” And then you’re off the hook! no need to look now. No need to face that empty space where “me” is supposed to be. Because yes, it will make the problem look like not a problem.

But that is the truth. The problem isn’t what it pretends to be. There is no “you” separate from the problem, or from the despair, or from the longing. It’s all just arising. No manager required.

I do not have any vested interest in looking there.

That’s honest. Good. But whatever you have been doing for 4 years of this hasn’t been working. And you’re here now. So what DOES want to look? Don’t move away from that question. Sit in the despair and look anyway.

WHO is suffering?

Who is waiting for awakening?

Is there a self in direct experience, or is there just sensation, thought, tension, labeling?

Check now.

No fixing. Just look.

And tell the truth about what’s found.

[graceabounds]

PS.
Start here. One question at a time.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?