New to joining the group!

[Love210]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have seen through the illusion of a self and see all there is is Love ❤️

What are you looking for at LU?
I heard about this group from YouTube channels mentioning that people sign up for guides and I felt inspired to join and offer support for others on the path as I’ve noticed I’ve been naturally helping people around me in my life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I’m open to whatever the process looks like to become a volunteer and I am happy to meet with a guide to determine if they feel I’m ready to do that. I don’t have any expectation, I’m just excited to see what unfolds

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I did some meditation, yoga and ceremony, then had a spontaneous awakening 13 years ago and a series of several larger awakenings after, then a progression of shifts as I’ve deepened in self inquiry and meeting a lot of trauma that arose in the body.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Good morning!

We can always use more guides.

I'm going to post 2 things. First, my usual introduction. Second, separately, our checkpoint questions to see where you are. We'll go from there.
My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

~ Stacy

[Anastacia42]

And here are the questions:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days. (or years)

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving,

[Love210]

Hi Stacy thanks so much for reaching out. I have reviewed all the links and info you sent and all sounds good to me.

How will life change?

I don’t think it will change as there has never been a self here so seeing that more clearly isn’t changing anything, although a deepening in this seeing may or may not continue to have an effect on the body/mind experience in the world as Ive noticed it has already, and perhaps continue to bring more ease in relational dynamics, more flow experience with life and less push/pull with reality

How will you change?

I will not change, only the false self I had taken myself to be and all beliefs that go along with it could possibly be diminished, with less selfing mechanism as I’ve already seen happen

What will be different?

I feel I answered this with how life will change,but more surrender/flow seems to be possible as more selfing/false ego habits of mind/body conditioning are seen through. Less appearance of belief in thoughts and less appearance of a sense of being a doer or chooser which I referred to as selfing earlier. Even though I’ve seen through these beliefs they can still appear so perhaps they would diminish with deeper seeing of this though I don’t know this is true so there isn’t really an expectation, it would just be believing another thought about a potential future

What is missing?

Nothing. Life is so full in this moment, only thoughts would say something is missing and if the thought is believed there could be an experience of something being missing but I am noticing that

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

I am in PST, you can call me M

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

There is sometimes an appearance of thought of a self and body sensation/contraction that can be mistaken as a ‘me’ controlling, choosing and separate to life. But those sensations and thoughts dissolve into nothing when looked at. It starts whenever a thought appears about something fearful like remembering there’s a problem to fix at work or anything else that seems to need fixing as an avoidance of fear/discomfort with what’s happening. This accompanies fear/contraction in the body which is noticed. In this moment I notice a sense of a ‘me’ typing these answers and a slight contraction around that thought and then it immediately relaxes into pure experiencing which is very difficult to describe as there is no one here to really describe or comment on it.

[

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days. (or years)

It always feels great every time I see this

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Sorry I don’t quite understand this question.

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Excellent question. There is an appearance of a thought together with a sensation of contraction around the thought and in the body that feels like a decider and chooser, then there are a series of thoughts that question should I do this or that? Sensations accompany each thought, some are pleasant or unpleasant and the pleasant sensation will usually lead to a thought- yes, I will choose this one, where as the unpleasant sensation will usually lead to a thought no, I don’t want this option. Then another thought will say ok, I have my choice now, and I will do it. Then there might be action taken in the body right away or at a later time that seems to be connected to that choice, so it appears to follow a narrative of a me that chooses and makes things happen, whereas in reality there is no separate entity doing or controlling anything. But that story of me can be believed which lead to continued contraction around a sense of ownership and responsibility for creating reality. Or if it is seen there is a relaxation of this tension (usually located in the head) and then everything is quiet and empty with nothing to do and no one to do it.

An example is with work there was something yesterday I needed to fix in order to make money and it was also dependent on someone else. I noticed the tension around trying to do something or get someone else to do what I wanted, and when I stopped trying to do anything I just felt the fear behind the doing and every time the thoughts about losing money and pressure to fix it kept arising I kept feeling the fear associated with the thoughts. I stopped the action and notice there is a sense of someone who feels they can decide whether to take action or who is deciding to feel the fear and not take action. This is seen after the fact but in the time it was believed there was a me who could do or not do something, and it would come again and again in waves of surrender and no doing and forgetting about the issue and then thoughts-fear and taking action then letting go of responsibility again to fix anything. And I notice a subtle hope thought that in giving up responsibility the problem will resolve itself as it usually does but if a long time passes and it is not resolved the fear and thought and responsibility re emerges.


6)

Anything to add?

This is so fun and I’m grateful to you for this guiding and exploration!

[Anastacia42]

Hi M.

You sound relatively clear to me, although there's some thinking in your replies.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Sorry I don’t quite understand this question.

That's because this presumes that I've been guiding you and maybe some particular pointer woke you up. It makes less sense if it was gradual.

Since you said you're already seeing there's no self, I didn't offer this but it may help:

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving

[Love210]

Hi Stacy yes those pointers are clear and the concept of looking for self is clear as I feel I shared in my other answers, it was the wording of that particular question that didn’t make sense to me.

You sound relatively clear to me, although there's some thinking in your replies.

Can you explain more what you mean by this and what specifically you see may be a problem in my replies?

The only thing in my replies from my last message that felt could use more clear seeing is the part where I deceived my experience of a belief in doership sometimes. Do you have any pointers for this or is this more about continuing with higher fetter work? It’s clear to me there is no self however selfing appears and belief in self still appears though that is seen. Do you feel there is anything further to see with this?

Thank you!

[Love210]

Caught a typo, ‘deceived’ is supposed to say ‘described’

[Anastacia42]

Sure.

Try this one. Report how it FEELS to SEE.


Doership Exercise

You see that there is no self to be found. Now let’s have a look at the feeling of being a 'doer’.


Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then: Look on your right.

Then look on your left.

Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.


Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).

When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).

And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).



So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is; can you turn seeing off?

Can you NOT see what is seen?


Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?


What did the 'chooser' choose?

Did a 'self' choose something?

If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Also, this should help you about those Sensations of contraction & tightness.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[Love210]

Can you turn off seeing?


What did the 'chooser' choose?

Did a 'self' choose something?

If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

No.
Nothing.
No.

What else is there to choose is a good question. The immediate response I had was that of course i cannot choose what appears in my awareness. But the mind says that's different from conscious intentions/decision/plan making. I noticed you made a distinction here between choosing seeing vs choosing what you see:

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is; can you turn seeing off?

That distinction is what feels like the important difference between what's chosen and what's not. The chosen part is the part you're saying you don't want to ask about like choosing another view. Maybe I'm missing your point with that comment, but that's the part of being able to move attention that feels like the choosing is happening, though I still can't find a self or entity of a chooser in it, choosing seems to be happening in the ability to focus, change and move attention.

If I have a thought and put my attention on something I can make that focus lead to more of what I want. The experience is if I become aware of thirst and then a desire for water arises, then I can direct my attention to the steps needed to get water- my entire focus/attention goes to the intention of getting water which seems to lead to walking to the water pitcher, getting a glass, filing it up and enjoying the water. Nothing else exists in my awareness seemingly while my thought and intention is focused on getting water, so it seems the chooser is in the thought/intention to get water and that focus of attention allows water to appear in my awareness, whereas the example of noticing what is in my field of awareness is a relaxed state of attention with no focus/intention/thought of what to expect or focus attention on. If there is a thought 'i want food to appear in my attention' and it's not here now, then there is the same series of thoughts and actions that lead to food appearing in my awareness, which is again different from noticing what is already in awareness without choosing what to focus on.

The same way you asked me to direct my attention to the right left and center, is the same way that I can direct myself to certain areas of attention.

So maybe a good follow up question would then be what/who chooses where attention goes? It seems there is a thought combined with an energy of attention around the thought that decides it likes that thought and wants more of it. What is it that causes and creates the focused attention and 'liking/attaching' to the thought? This seems to be a mystery of how certain thoughts/sensations are liked/chosen but this is what we call intention, this experience of grabbing onto a thought/experience, versus the experiencing of noticing a thought without believing it or giving it attention. So what is the experience of 'grabbing a thought'? It seems attention is awareness focused, narrowed and contracted around something versus in a state of open expansion. Grabbing a thought is the experience of awareness tightening around a thought and the body contracts along with it. The contraction and expansion movements appear to be happening with no entity I can find that's in charge of it or choosing whether to contract or expand.

Similar to your later lying exercise, awareness/attention seems to like/expand around truths and contract around a lie, something unliked. What is the chooser of expansion or contraction, what is seemingly liked or not liked? It seems this is the mystery of expansion and contraction from nothing or no one that is seen, yet the chooser/doer is associated with this ability to expand and contract at 'will' based on some kind of preference/desire. There does seem to be will in this way, though it is a mystery, and there seems to be a preference towards truth/love/expansion and a dislike/contraction towards what is not love/truth. I notice all these words carry a judgment in it of what truth and love is and good and bad so it's difficult to describe. But it seems attention follows desire but the desire comes from nowhere/nothing...and you can call this nowhere/nothing I/ME.

I feel the sense of how it is I/ME choosing, however the I is the universal mystery of everything and nothing that chooses, not limited to a thought of me. In this particular moment it's starting to feel like the whole spiritual inquiry is another concept believed. I'm thrown right back to the beginning as if i never learned anything spiritual about self or no self and the simplicity of knowing I am choosing and directing my life from whatever I love. And the freedom is knowing that I am choosing from things I love/don't love, i am just not aware of how i'm doing that, so the freedom is to simply notice how im directing attention, and if attention goes to what seems like suffering, there is a choice to stop. Ironically i'm feeling more sense of choice as a result of this exercise, but it feels more freeing and empowering, rooted in love and the mystery of Self, rather than a burden of control based in fear of getting it right/wrong. It's more of a simple knowing there is always choice of where attention can go, which includes any particular thought of a me that needs to figure something out which can create suffering, or letting that go because it's not really true/loving. This may or may not be the 'right' spiritual answer seeing through self/doesrship, but it's what feels true right now.

[Anastacia42]

Hi again,

This would have been far better if you had stuck to "No. Nothing. No."

All of these other words are what? Are they Direct Experience? Or are they the content of thought?

If thought, why? We are not concerned with thinking at all. Only with LOOKING. The mind's attempts to explain & rationalize are nothing but stories. They are completely extraneous to inquiry.

So, you are still laboring under the illusion that you can control attention. Really? Check!

Try this other pointer:

Drink Exercise

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

Loving,

[Love210]

Hi, my last message was me deeply exploring my direct experience and yes it also had thinking and explanation, but it would be helpful if you could point out the specific parts you think could use more investigation. I would appreciate specific responses to the various parts my last share as they felt they contained a lot of important aspects of this exploration. It was interesting to explore the nuances of how attention moves and the direct experience of attention grabbing/focusing on thoughts and preferences, if you could comment on that it would be nice to hear.

My conclusion was I do not find a separate self choosing or controlling where attention goes and yet choice appears from the mystery of the unknown so I do not see anything wrong with this. However I do see that attention is moving on its own based on previous thoughts that also appear on their own.

Here is the next exercise.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

1. Qualities and preferences appear as thoughts on their own
2. Attention focused on counting and preferences took the back seat. I did not choose to shut down preferences, that seemed to happen automatically because attention was focused on counting. There was a choice to follow the instructions to count, which was a series of thoughts feelings and action.

Did I directly experience mental faculty choosing? I read the instructions that told me to focus attention on counting. There was thought interpreting the instruction, then attention went to counting. There was thought remembering the previous preferences and the feelings they elicited. There was a feeling of joy and desire for one option and a thought I want the one that brought me joy. Then I reached out to grab the chosen item.

I don’t see a chooser, I see a series of thoughts and feelings associated with them and then thoughts that make decisions based on what experience is preferred, and actions that follow the decision thoughts. I cannot find a choser yet choices are being made that lead to subsequent actions.

Thank you!

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

my last message was me deeply exploring my direct experience and yes it also had thinking and explanation, but it would be helpful if you could point out the specific parts you think could use more investigation. I would appreciate specific responses to the various parts my last share as they felt they contained a lot of important aspects of this exploration. It was interesting to explore the nuances of how attention moves and the direct experience of attention grabbing/focusing on thoughts and preferences, if you could comment on that it would be nice to hear.

That reply was full of so much thinking that I had a hard time focusing to read it. Short & sweet is much better here. I cannot give you the specific responses you are asking for. It would not help.

"Deeply exploring" just took you through a lot of thinking. Remember "Colored Socks" We don't want to do that, really.

Further investigation - if you mean thinking about it more - will not be helpful. Simply LOOK.

I do not find a separate self choosing or controlling where attention goes and yet choice appears from the mystery of the unknown so I do not see anything wrong with this.

Yes, it is a mystery. That's it. Nothing to "investigate" or "explore," really. It just is.

Please quote only one question with the answer underneath, not all at once. This will be important when you have a shift in perception and answer our checkpoint questions, which other guides will look at.

thoughts that make decisions

Really? Thoughts make decisions? Please explain exactly how they do this.

The truth, that the mind does not like to accept, is that it is a mystery. Things arise on their own. There is no "how" or "why." No control, no intention, no choice, no free will. You are seeing that this is true.

Loving,

[Love210]

Hi,
Yes that all makes sense, actually after I sent you my reply I realized it wasn’t necessary to get a follow up to my previous message and I myself can’t even remember what all that was about..passing phenomena.

Really? Thoughts make decisions? Please explain exactly how they do this.

What I meant here is that a decision is a thought. The thought says it’s making a decision.

Yea, I see clearly there is no choice of anything. Free will as a concept is very confusing to the mind, it’s seen there is no free will anywhere and yet there is an experience of choosing. This seems to be a big debate in the spiritual communities and a spectrum people lie on from pure nondual no free will to an integrated human experience of an appearance of choice being a paradox that’s also part of the unexplainable mystery.

[Love210]

I love your quote from Adyashanti and he has a lot of talks about free will not being black and white, that he experiences there is both free will and not.