Seeking and listening

[Nativo1979]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is not a "self" or a "Yo" as we say in Spanish. The idea of what "I'am", is a story I've been told and that I used to believed. This story has been told by everyone and everything that surrounds me since i was born.

What are you looking for at LU?
I always felt that we are in a play and we have been given a part to play and a character, but that is not reality. Myself (Lucas) is just the character I have been given, but is not the real me. I'm hoping LU will help me find answers and point me in the right direction to awake. A guide helping in the path on finding the answers I'm looking. I think the experiences of normal people like me that have awake will be a great help.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I think guided conversations will help my find my own answers and my path to awakening I have been searching for a very long time. Having someone that has been awake, and have the experience, could be a great help as it can provide tips to help me find my path to awakening

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been practicing meditation on and off since I was 16 y/o (I'm 45 now). Since I was a teenager I had the feeling that there was something else that I was not seeing. Born in a Christian family in Argentina, first I started looking on the catholic faith but I couldn't find satisfactory answers from the priest. Then I started reading about Buddhism and Hinduism. Started meditating and practicing Yoga. I believe that these are very useful tools, but I'm still seeking for something else.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi Lucas/Nativo1979
(what do you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

Born in a Christian family in Argentina

What time zone are you in? Argentina (GMT-3)? I'm GMT+2. We might have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Nativo1979]

Hi Rali,

Thank you very much for taking the time to guide me. I really appreciate it.

What time zone are you in? Argentina (GMT-3)?

I was born in Argentina, but I'm currently leaving in New Zealand GMT +12. that's the reason for my delay on replying. I'm happy to work with this time difference if it's not an issue for you.

Since I posted my request for a guide I have been reading and listening to the audio resources and that has helped me to understand better that we are trying to see the reality paying attention to sensations, feelings, emotions and thoughts.

Please apologize if my English is not clear enough, even that I have been leaving in NZ for a few years, my born language is Spanish.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me. I will be sure to reply every day and as soon as I find your messages.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lucas

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I'm currently leaving in New Zealand GMT +12. that's the reason for my delay on replying. I'm happy to work with this time difference if it's not an issue for you.

No problem at all. I just want to know so I know when to expect a reply from you :)

I will be sure to reply every day and as soon as I find your messages.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Nativo1979]

Hi Rali,

Please apologize for the late reply, I completely forgot that it was Easter weekend in NZ and I had to work night shift and take care of the kids during the day.

When I saw your questions I thought they were easy to answer, but once I seat in front of my laptop, every questions was very hard to answer when trying to be honest.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I have to say that my answers to all your questions are all influenced by the information I have gathered in LU the last few days.
I don't think anything will be different on the normal life. Still have to work, take care of the kids, the house, the animals and everything else will still happen.
I remember a quote on a zen book, that I read when I was a teen, that goes something like: "before awakening the mountain is a mountain and the river is a river. When you awake the mountain is not a mountain anymore and same with the river, but after some time the mountain is again a mountain and the river is again a river". That phrase was been on my head since then. And after reading other people experiences in the Gate I understand that nothing will change after seeing that there is no separate self.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I don't really know to be sincere. I think the disappear of the believe on a separate self will provide a sense of peace. Not having this idea of "Lucas", will remove the constant idea that I have to be the way I'm expected to be, and the auto inflicted obligations.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don't think there is something that worries me, or that I don't want to happen.

4. What are you hoping for?

I don't know if I'm hoping for something. Maybe what I hope and what I expect are very similar. Pretty much what I answered on the second question.

5. What is missing?

Having this "feeling" (i don't know if it's really a feeling, I really don't know how to call it) that I'm not seeing life as how it really is. I'm sure this is also influenced by what I have read and studied before.

Thank you very much for your time.

Love

Lucas

[poppyseed]

Hi Lucas

Please apologize for the late reply, I completely forgot that it was Easter weekend in NZ and I had to work night shift and take care of the kids during the day.

Life happens out of our control ;)

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work

Love
Rali

[Nativo1979]

Is that OK with you?

Yes, that's ok with me. No other expectations really. Thanks

If you look for the I, what is there?

I just find this idea of Lucas that has been formed since I have memory. Now taking time to look at it, there is this story that has been forming this idea, that Lucas is this person that has to meet all these expectations and should have control or plan for anything that could go wrong.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

The first to come up is a thought that if there is no doer or decision maker, what are "we" gonna do? Like if my mind is asking the I, how are we going to make things work? Are all these possible future issues that we are constantly preparing for just going to be resolved or not alone?

I feel my hearth pumping a little faster, that kind of mix of anxiety and butterflies in my stomach, similar to when I'm about to play a competitive football match. Also my hands are like a little numb.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lucas

Thank you for your honest reply! Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, take a look and locate them. That’s how to look.

So, there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is another example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing/colour
Hearing/sound
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)/sensation
Tasting/taste
Smelling/smell
Thniking/thoughts arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

So now that you know how to look...

I just find this idea of Lucas that has been formed since I have memory. Now taking time to look at it, there is this story that has been forming this idea, that Lucas is this person that has to meet all these expectations and should have control or plan for anything that could go wrong.

The first to come up is a thought that if there is no doer or decision maker, what are "we" gonna do? Like if my mind is asking the I, how are we going to make things work? Are all these possible future issues that we are constantly preparing for just going to be resolved or not alone?

I feel my hearth pumping a little faster, that kind of mix of anxiety and butterflies in my stomach, similar to when I'm about to play a competitive football match. Also my hands are like a little numb.

Perfect. Lucas, this is exactly where it cracks.
Look—when you check in direct experience:
The story of “Lucas” is active. The idea of control. The need to manage the unknown.
But show me the controller. If you look at the 'I/me/Lucas' that is responsible, is it actually known/seen (DE)? (Or is it just a label?) A sensation and colour labelled “I” are known, as are the thoughts ABOUT an “I”, but is an “I” actually known (DE)? Is there really a ‘person’ here? Can ‘Lucas’ be found in actual experience?

Does the label "I" contain an actual I...does it contain an actual person?
Does the label "I"/"Lucas" itself, suggest in any way that it is an I/Lucas?
Does the label "I" know anything about an I?
What does the label "I" point to? In other words, what does the word/label "I" actually refer to?

So, right now—without using thought—where is the one preparing for the future?
Where’s the thing that should “make things work”?
Not the plan. Not the fear. Not the mental images. The actual thing that would be the doer, the decider.
Where is it?
Or… is there only sensation (butterflies, tightness), and thought trying to cover the rawness with a manager-character?
What if that fear isn’t something to fix—but the exact proof that there’s no one steering this?
Can that heartbeat, that stomach churn, exist on their own—without a “Lucas” at the center?
Look now.
Do they need a self to be happening?
Let’s stay right there. Look into the center of fear—what’s actually there? What is the fear protecting?
Love
Rali

[Nativo1979]

Hi Rali

Thanks for you clarifying explanation about actually seeing.
I had a really busy day, and I want to have the time to concentrate on the exercises and focus on your questions.
I'll take one more day to answer.
I hope that's ok
Thanks so much
Lucas

[poppyseed]

Hi Lucas
No worries! Thanks for letting me know!

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Lucas
Are we still doing this? We are losing a momentum here...
Love
Rali

[Nativo1979]

Hi Rali,

Please apologize, I have a last minute unplanned trip that avoid me to get in touch.

Sitting at the airport now.

The story of “Lucas” is active. The idea of control. The need to manage the unknown.
But show me the controller. If you look at the 'I/me/Lucas' that is responsible, is it actually known/seen (DE)? (Or is it just a label?) A sensation and colour labelled “I” are known, as are the thoughts ABOUT an “I”, but is an “I” actually known (DE)? Is there really a ‘person’ here? Can ‘Lucas’ be found in actual experience?

I can't see, smell or taste "Lucas".
I can see a reflection of light on a human body that was labelled "Lucas" but not a "Lucas" I can't see the controller of this body. Nor I can smell it, or touch it or taste it.
Even these thoughts about "Lucas". Where are they coming from?. "I'm" not controlling or creating them. So they must be there even if "I" don't exist. If there was a "Lucas" that created these thoughts it should be able to control them (create, modify, erase them). - There are the stomach butterflies again, and my hearth pumping-.
So these thoughts exist completely independently of the existence of a "Lucas/I". There is no "I" controlling them.

While waiting at the airport, looking at the boarding pass. I saw that "Lucas" was printed there, but it was just a label. A description of a "Lucas". Anyone or everyone could have that boarding pass with "Lucas" printed on it, and match that description and be that "Lucas".

Does the label "I" contain an actual I...does it contain an actual person?

No actual person, just a description.

Does the label "I"/"Lucas" itself, suggest in any way that it is an I/Lucas?

No, just as the label apple does not imply that there is an apple here. Unless you can see it, or touch it.

Does the label "I" know anything about an I?

No
What does the label "I" point to? In other words, what does the word/label "I" actually refer to? It refers to a description (sorry that's the word in English that most represent what I want to say) but not an actual thing that I can see, touch or taste.

So, right now—without using thought—where is the one preparing for the future?
Where’s the thing that should “make things work”?
Not the plan. Not the fear. Not the mental images. The actual thing that would be the doer, the decider.
Where is it?
Or… is there only sensation (butterflies, tightness), and thought trying to cover the rawness with a manager-character?
What if that fear isn’t something to fix—but the exact proof that there’s no one steering this?
Can that heartbeat, that stomach churn, exist on their own—without a “Lucas” at the center?
Look now.
Do they need a self to be happening?
Let’s stay right there. Look into the center of fear—what’s actually there? What is the fear protecting?

Yes, those sensations (heartbeat, stomach butterflies) exist on their own without a "Lucas". There is no "Lucas" to control them, there is not and "I/Lucas" that can stop them or make them happen. They don't need a "Lucas" to be happening.
There is not a "Lucas/I" in charge, not a "Lucas" creating/controlling these thoughts or these sensations, just life happening in this very moment.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lucas

Yes, those sensations (heartbeat, stomach butterflies) exist on their own without a "Lucas". There is no "Lucas" to control them, there is not and "I/Lucas" that can stop them or make them happen. They don't need a "Lucas" to be happening.
There is not a "Lucas/I" in charge, not a "Lucas" creating/controlling these thoughts or these sensations, just life happening in this very moment.

Good!
Read what you wrote again, slowly.
Notice: there was never a “Lucas” controlling anything — not thoughts, not sensations, not fear, not life.
There is just this—raw, unowned, untamed, unlabelled. No one behind it. No one producing it. No one managing it.
The fear... was trying to protect something that doesn’t exist. The fear itself proves it.
Look even deeper:
Is fear a problem?
Or was it only the thought, “this shouldn’t be happening,” that created the struggle?
If there’s no “Lucas” in the center, no “controller” missing—then what exactly needs to be fixed or protected?

I can see a reflection of light on a human body that was labelled "Lucas" but not a "Lucas" I can't see the controller of this body. Nor I can smell it, or touch it or taste it.

Let’s explore the idea of “human body” as it is easy to identify with it – there is no doer but there is a body doing things…
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?
Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying. We'll explore the "visual part" of body next...
Love
Rali

[Nativo1979]

Is fear a problem?
Or was it only the thought, “this shouldn’t be happening,” that created the struggle?
If there’s no “Lucas” in the center, no “controller” missing—then what exactly needs to be fixed or protected?

No, fear is now not a problem. just a feeling. The thought was creating the struggle.
Without a controller nothing needs to be fixed or protected. The fear was just protecting the story that there was a Lucas controlling.

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?
Observe the order in which the details appear

1. The most accurate description of the experience is the sensation labelled "cold" (option b). It feels like the can is cold, the sensation is there but can't say that there is an "I" that is cold, only the sensation labelled "cold" exists.

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

Just one the sensation

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

It just a body

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

Sorry, I don't know if I understand the question. are you asking about and inside or outside the body?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The world/label "body" refers to the physical structure of an organism. There are no actual experience of the body, only the sensations. Washing hands the feeling of the worm water, the smell of the soap, was the real experience, what really "existed".
C

an the 'body' do things?

can't say that the label body can do things, but when training horses, energy is transmitted trough the body to inform the horse. (training horses is something that most enjoy).

Love

Lucas

[poppyseed]

Hi Lucas
The forum was down yesterday so I couldn’t see your reply.

The most accurate description of the experience is the sensation labelled "cold" (option b). It feels like the can is cold, the sensation is there but can't say that there is an "I" that is cold, only the sensation labelled "cold" exists.

Where is the “can” in direct experience—apart from the sensation labelled “cold” and a mental image or memory of what a can is?
Isn’t “can” just a name stitched onto a cold sensation + a shape (aka colour)?
Can you find the “thing” apart from the pattern of sensations, colours (seeing) and labels?
Does “can” exist anywhere outside thought, label, and image? How is that known?
If the “I” is just a story pasted onto sensations, why not the “can” too? What makes one set of sensations a ‘body’ and another a ‘can’? Isn’t it just naming?

Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

The world/label "body" refers to the physical structure of an organism. There are no actual experience of the body, only the sensations. Washing hands the feeling of the worm water, the smell of the soap, was the real experience, what really "existed".

can't say that the label body can do things, but when training horses, energy is transmitted trough the body to inform the horse. (training horses is something that most enjoy).

The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensation and colour and labels it a ‘body’, but can a body be found as actual experience or only thoughts about a body?
Can you find this “physical structure” without using thought, memory, or label?
Is the “body” ever experienced in full? Or just isolated sensations—heat here, pressure there, tingle, texture, flicker?
Where is the edge—where “body” ends and “not body” begins—without a label (i.e. “skin”) to draw the line? Do sensations have inside or outside?
Without thought, what is the difference between “horse,” “air,” and “arm”?
Because if the label “body” doesn’t point to a single solid thing—and experience is just fragmented, shifting sensation—
then what exactly is doing, training, moving?
Can you show me “body” without thinking? Without reaching for a word, where is it?
Not “what do you believe”—but what do you find?
Love
Rali