The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
We:
1. Experience sensations - through all of our major and minor senses
2. We 'process' these sensations
3. We interpret these through thoughts/emotions
Without inquiry, we think 'we' are the product of our interpretations. This is where the illusory self lies. By working back through the above steps, we see how we've created our 'self'.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking to connect with other people as I continue fetter work. I definitely find myself with a sense of "okay so I'm here (noself/in the moment)...now what do I do?" I'm not sure what my next steps are, nor do I have super specific questions; but I'm heeding Damore's advice of needing community, needing conversation as I continue fetter work. I also enjoy this space, the present, and I'm a silly goose. That's why silly is in my thread. I'd love to connect with our people with humour!

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
That kind of sounds like a non-duality joke ... I don't have specific expectations, they fell when the penny dropped. hehe
But to provide an answer, I'd say particularly a two way conversation (not groups or completely open to anyoen to jump in threads), where one can push the other, challenge each other's thinking with the mutual udnerstanding that we're both here to keep learning, and have fun along the way.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Nothing has spoken to me like the Tao Te Ching. When I read that 15+ years ago, I think it was inevitable from that point I wanted to find out what 'living the tao' actually was.
Along the way I've jumped into all kinds of meditation practises, reading various philosophy & psychology and completed a degree in philosohpy & psychology. Over the last 3 years I've explored the world of Reiki, completed my level 1 course and continue to practise Reiki whenever I feel like it.
Ironically, now that the penny has dropped I recognise both:
A. All of these practises were largley over-thinking the tao...at least I ended up back at the tao anyway
B. I am much more open minded, with no expectations, of all these practises. So I get to explore them now with a refreshed and more open-minded perspective.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Hey Silly Goose 🪿


Glad you waddled in. My name is Magdalena, and I'm happy to join you here. Sounds like we're in for some fun. 😄😄😄


You say,

okay so I’m here (noself/in the moment)... now what do I do?

What’s this “I” that’s supposedly here, wondering what to do next?

DOn't give me a theory. Don’t give me “it’s all just happening” (which it is btw).

Actually look, right now, as you’re reading this.

Where is it?
(Look. Don’t think. LOOK)


This whole “fetter work” thing — be honest — is that YOU doing it?

Or is it just another clever costume the mind puts on to keep playing the game, but now with sophisticated spiritual vocabulary?


If “no self” is "seen", who or what exactly is left doing work on anything?

And what needs to be worked on?

Isn't that just another little leftover story playing dress-up as “spiritual progress”?



No need to fight it, mind you. We’re not against practice. But here at LU we’re interested in one thing only:

Seeing, directly, that there is no separate self — none, never was, not even a speck.

Not gradually. Not eventually. Now.

If you’re still game, we’ll poke the soft spots together.

But heads up: the “you” that wants to connect, grow, evolve, and do something next...
That one won’t survive this. 😄

Wanna play? If yes, please answer all the questions in this post. 😄

Pls watch this short video about how to use the quote function on this forum: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Hello Magdalena! Thank you for reaching out :0

What/where is this I I speak of?
It's like a focusing of awareness. Focusing on some of the stuff, some of the momentum that's flowing through here (my body/position/histoory of habits). The I seems practical, to itself, but limited in how open it is to all of the possibilites around it. I do feel a dissolving of this happening. The less I seem to be aware of focusing, the more things pop up I didn't really pay attention to before. The other day I was captivated by the rhtyhms of the washing machine and I sat to watch it for a while.

This whole fetter work thing...is that YOU doing it...is it a costume...what needs to be worked on...who is left doing work?
It feels exciting. Calming. And releasing. I'm definitely hungry for what I hear of this 'ubound consciousness', where form appears to shift, things become more connected. I feel like I've had little nibbles of this in the past, but the more mindful I am the more I notice thought habits of working first from the outside of something, defining a thing's boundaries, what it is/isn't, and only then do I dig deeper. It seems more open, less attached, to explore how this habit could be dissolved.

But heads up: the “you” that wants to connect, grow, evolve, and do something next...
That one won’t survive this. 😄

Oh my gosh! How hilarious and terrifying at the same time. Hmmmm. 'I' likes to be comfortable. Likes to be settled in some way. As I've been getting more into this nonduality business, I've found comfort more and more in unknowns, moments of nervousness or anticipation. But that's still finding comfort isn't it?

Sense of I seems to pop up with just about every thought. Preserving it's sense of self in some way. Wether that's intellecualising ideas of it, or creating points of contention against imaginary antagonists. Even when I experience more and more no-thinking, longer periods of time where I seem to not really be aware of conscious thoughts, there will eventually be a thought that pops up going - "hey good job not thinking! You're doing great not thinking. Let's think this through" haha. What a loop.

Hmm. I thought I had found the endgame with being settled in things that are unsettling (the unknown etc). But now I realise it's the same grounding of a what and a where sense of I. Hmm...clever I...cheeky I indeed.

So maybe it's that I find comfort in a sense of I, whatever/however it is doesn't matter, as long as it exists in someway...

Hey again Goose 🪿 (if you want me to call you some other name, just say a word)


OK then. Let’s drop the incense.

You’ve delivered a beautifully poetic description of how the illusion of self survives by rebranding itself with spiritual-sounding language.

Every word above is like a little costume change for “I.” Dissolving... focusing... sensing... appreciating rhythms... digging deeper... “cheeky I”... unbound consciousness... — all of it. And you know it.


Let’s cut straight:

Right now, don’t move. Don’t go deeper. Don’t dissolve. Don’t “focus awareness.”


Just look. Not meditate. Not be mindful.
LOOK.


Is there anything, right now, that could be called a separate self//"me"/Goose aka whatever your name is?

Anything watching? Anything doing?

Be brutally, childishly honest. Don’t describe the process — LOOKand report.

Because if you’re still telling me what “you” are doing with your attention, your awareness, your openness, then the game is still on. The seeker is still alive and kicking, just wearing cooler robes and humming softly.

Don’t dig deeper. Dig is the problem.

Just check:
Right now — is there a “you” at all? Anywhere? Even a trace?

Answer that without poetry. One way or the other.

Goose is what my father calls me, I prefer Sir Gooseington the 3rd formally... or Colonel Quackinboots... :P

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I wrote.
I deleted.
I wrote some more.
I deleted some more.

There’s an obvious answer, but there’s also confusion, and maybe it’s because of the question.

‘Self’ and ‘separate self’ feel like 2 different things.

To be honest, I don’t really get, nor have I really cared about, what non-dualists are referring to by separation or non-duality. Do they mean how Descartes thought mind and body are 2 entities unto themselves, to which the seemingly obvious truth is…no, they’re of the same? Like thinking humans are different from nature (dualism) instead of realising it's all nature (non-duality).

Self is clearly illusory. There isn’t really anything there…other than like an ironic urge to see that there is something in some way.

The obvious answer seems to be cause and effect. The illusory self starts idk in the womb for all we know, or earlier, and everything that effects it, effects it, which effects it more and it just keeps going from there. No consciousness per se, no intention, no binary right or wrong, non truth or incorrectness. Just stuff that kind of happens and that’s about it.

…what is there to be separate from?

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Corporal fluff n stuff saltues you (thank you for your time and patience)

Hey Goose. 🪿


Nice. You’re not bullshitting. You’re not running to the next idea. You sat in it. That’s rare.


You ask

What is there to be separate from?

Exactly.


Now notice what just happened.

There wasn’t an answer.
There wasn’t a “dissolving” or “awareness” or “focusing.”
There was just a simple, immediate crack in the shell.


Stay with that.


Forget duality and non-duality, forget Descartes, forget wombs and ripples of cause and effect.


Right now: is there anything that stands apart? Anything at all that is not this?



If you try to answer, the self reboots.


If you stop, just for a second—you’ll notice:

Everything is happening.
Everything has always been happening.
There’s no one it’s happening to.


Don’t explain this. Don’t decode it.

Just sit in that question: what is there to be separate from?


If something stirs, don’t analyze it.

Just notice if it belongs to someone, or if it’s just appearing.


That’s the gate.

Stand still. Watch what walks through - if anything.

It's just experience happening.

Is there a gate to cross? Sounds like another nonduality joke
Why did the nondualist cross the road?
They didn't
Lol

Haha — yes.


No gate. No road. No one walking. No punchline.
Just this—always.


Let’s check a few things before moving to the official checkpoint.

1. Is there, anywhere at all, a separate entity—‘self,’ ‘me,’ ‘I’—that exists in any way, shape, or form?
Look right now. Don’t answer from memory or understanding. Is anything like that present?


2. Was there ever?
If yes—what was it made of, exactly?
If no—then what was believed to be there? What kept the illusion running?


3. Earlier you described things like unbound consciousness, focusing awareness, dissolving, mindfulness, etc.
How do those concepts land now? Are they still relevant? Meaningful? Or do they appear differently?


4. Has life changed?
Keep it immediate—last few days. What feels different now, if anything?
Anything feel lighter, more obvious, weirder, or more ordinary?

Numero Uno
The only self/me/I that seems to exist right now is insofar as a thought. Just like I could imagine a pink elephant. That thought is happening. Thoughts of I happen. But they're just thoughts.

Numero Duo
Was there ever a self? Maybe on thought level. The same way I can think I am Australian because I live here. Only as real as the thought. What keeps it running? So much antsyness when experience is just experience. Body shaking. Don't know what to do in general. What to do with today? Even though yes, that's just another thought.

Numero Trio
How do consciousness terms/concepts differ? Well they're just descriptions, just pointing. There aren't really words for experience itself. They're just tools for pointing.

Numero 4
In my OP I coined it as "the penny dropped". That was around a month ago. And feels the same as where we're at here. Experience feels more raw. Less habitual. Open to unexpected possibilities. Waaaayyyy less attached; stressors are duck off a waters back. This body is so much louder! I don't engage in 90% of the activities I used to, they just kind of seem not that fun, they were just running away from having to sit with body. Sense of self can shift to things that aren't me/human/this guy and feel just as real. Like the 2 birds in backyard, communicating "I found a spot! Over here" "where are you?" "OVER HERE" haha. Feels just as real as the thoughts this guy can have. But also they're all just thoughts.

Sounds cool. 🙂🙂🙂

A few more questions for you - the answers will be shared with other guides. 🙂

Please answer all the questions from your current seeing, without going into theoretical concepts.


1) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.


3) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?


4) Describe
- decision,
- intention,
- free will,
- choice and control.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.


5) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

1) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Self starts from godknows how long ago. Generations, pre-human, something of that ilk. The illusion starts from feeling like we need to do something and then creating stories around it. A sensation in the body - "oh now I need to do x/y/z". That doesn't happen when we need to go to the bathroom, it's just sensation, body signal, off we go. But if it's the bladder full feeling and then "oh what if I pee myself? there better not be someone in there? Bloody hell I knew I should have gone earlier", this is all thoughts creating an illusory self out of raw experience.

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Before I would have categorised all kinds of feelings as feeling...different. Now everything just kind of feels the same. The 'feeling' of missing the train you intended to catch, doesn't really feel different from eating a piece of bread. It just is.

3) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Starting at the body.
1. Feels some sensation in the jaw.
2. "I feel nervous'
3. "I feel nervous about x...and also y...and don't even get me started about z. Oh well now we are started on z, let's deconstruct it..."
4. Woah buddy, that's a whole string of thoughts. Does any of that really have to do with where we started. Return to the jaw. Accept it.
Coming back to the body just made clearer that the thoughts are just thoughts. Not even all that accurate or important, just thoughts. From there it was so much easier to accept self as merely thoughts, likewise not all that accurate or important. Just thoughts.

4) Describe
- decision,

Ermmm. Believing that a thought, a narrowed perspective out of all the possibilites, is 'right' or 'good' or 'what I should do'.
EG. 9am"I decide that I will go for a run today"
7pm (didn't go for a run). "Oh no, I broke my decision. I didn't do what I decided I should or would do".
It's a lot of self-torture isn't it. Maybe there was experience of the idea of running at 9am. Okay. No worries. Whether we go for a run or not doesn't actually matter. The decision is evaluation, judgment, self-judgment etc.

4) Describe
- intention,

Offt can I just copy paste from decision? Actually...is there a difference other than the letters which make decision different from intention?

4) Describe
- free will,

Believing that self is deciding things. "I have free will because I chose to eat a chicken sandwhich". I mean, who decided? Were there not just tummy sensations? Thoughts relating to how to satiate this, effecting my habits, routines, 'easy' availabilities. Did I really choose to eat a chicken sandwhich, or was it that it was an easy/predictable way to settle the body. In that sense of feeling like I have to do something about experience. Hell it could even be a Cosmic Demon Sanders, hungry for more cluckin. Either ways it's all just thoughts, theories, around what is happening regardless.

4) Describe
- choice and control,

Oh I see what we're doing with these 4 terms to descibe.
Choice, aka decision aka intention is all selfing.
Control, is believing in the selfing.

5) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Doesn't it feel so naughty to say it's all just stories. That your responsbilites, or what you think are your responsiblities, are just part of deciding "this is me and this is who I am" and responsibilities are commitments to control, attaching to self. But of course it does feel naughty. I do feel I need to care for my kids. I do feel I I need to give them space and love and compassion, and safety...and food. I know I am using I alot in my sentences here I am writing. Cause I can still experience sense of self. It feels most potent in this paragraph, about responsibilites because it really feels like the end of the world if I were to say "no I'm not responsible for my kids - good luck tiny humans, hope you figure it all out". But it feels clear in experiencing and thinking all that. The thoughts are clear. The raw experiences are clear. The 'what ifs' are clear, as thoughts. And I should probably keep paying my bills. And again. I do recognise that as thoughts. And that's okay. I don't need to torture myself with thinking, and selfing. And I can do that while also feeding my kids and paying my bills.

6) Anything to add?

Struth!

<3 Thank you Magdalena, head Goose :)

Hey Goose,

One guide has some questions for you. Here goes:

And I can do that while also feeding my kids and paying my bills.

Is this just a pure experience,
or are you the persona in it?

Can you find the persona in any experience?

Play with that curiosity…
Look gently.

Even the event of having a family —
notice this, too, is pure experience,
happening
without a fixed personality behind it.

When that is seen…
What comes?
What opens?

Notice the freedom in this:
whatever is found, whatever arises,
is only experience ?

The divine table is served.
An infinite feast of delicious moments,
flavors of sensation, thought, emotion, sound, color…

Enjoy whatever you want.
There is no right or wrong bite.
Only tasting, only being.
What is coming?

What is coming?

Just experience.

Can you find the persona in any experience?

Only insofar as a thought. And only really if I attach onto it, holding onto it. Kind of feels like an attachment worrying, the persona being a perceived antitode to the imagined fear. But it's just a thought.

Back to experience.

Enjoy whatever you want.
There is no right or wrong bite.
Only tasting, only being.
What is coming?

Ohh, seemingly infinite experiences. All are open for engagement.

Cool, Goosey. :)

Here's some more suggestions from the same guide.

Notice what happens to attachment, to worrying…
to imagined fear —
when you truly see:
there is no persona behind them.
No center.
No ‘someone’ they can stick to.
And ask gently:
Is there something in you that unconsciously needs them?
Some old belief…
that worry keeps things safe?
That fear keeps you prepared?
Is there something that requires this —
for life to unfold?
Or are these just old visitors,
repeating themselves to no one in particular —
until they’re finally seen
and released…
like mist in the morning sun❤

Jeez what i thought was my body isn't even 'mine'. That's structuring. For...control? Control so I ... don't have to bear the excruciating sensations of sensations themselves. But they're also so easy to sit with. It's just flow. Endless. 'The only constant is change'. It's always shifting, morphing. It? That's structuring too. Why structure? Why the habit to structure? Makes a sense of self. Self is made from resistance. So why resist? It's so easy to sit with these sensations. There really isn't a sense of I or mine. Or even body. It's just movement. Subtle, gentle, imperfectly perfect. Easy. Is an evaluation too. Like "good job, you're in the present. Achieved! Now what do you want to do next?" All the thoughts, even the most present seeming thoughts, are just thoughts. Thoughts to keep moving in a familiar way, habit, comfort, sense of control. Letting go of all of that, means me, body, none of it actually exists in the way the thoughts seem to think they do. They're just thoughts. Wow.