Return to the natural state of being

[Soybean]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no one inhabiting my body and controlling everything from the head-quarter and who is the one doing the thinking and deciding and responsible for typing this message right now. The self just exists as thoughts and is a pattern that arises depending on memory and reaction to perception of the external or internal world. It is a show.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for stability in the realizations I had so far and integrating them in my life. I believe some internal changes happened after seeing there is no self and looking into why there are still reactions happening but the changes seem very internal and almost on a thought level and are not necessarily reflected in my behavior without effort. I would like to let go of all believes that make me reactive in certain situations and live from a point where I feel the illusion of the self is as clearly seen through as the existence of Santa Clause and not only when I pay attention to it. Being automatically more mindful and unattached if that makes sense. To my mind it still feels like I am tricking it into believing there is no self and the world is non-dual and but still everything that is happening is referred to a me in the center of experience and thoughts are the familiar place to go for interpreting whats happening. I do a lot of self-talk and I imagine this to be less and be in the background in a deeper stage of realization.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I think there are area where I should look into and I am avoiding it or not able to go there. It doesnt feel like anything traumatic or I am forcefully hiding but still small conditioning here and there that make a liberation from the influence of the imaginary self seem like it is still something that needs to happen. A guide could call this out and offer useful pointers of perspective on how to address all the conditioned reactions that are giving me the impression they are holding me back from being able to going through that gateless gate and never turn back even though there is no gate and I am already there.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been meditating more or less regular for over 3 years focusing on mindfulness meditation. Only in the last year I started with self-inquiry. At the beginning of last year I was thinking I know what I am seeking and I was looking intensively and very driven. I am now at the point where I would say the seeking is not that strong and more about joyful discovery but I am still moving even though the direction doesnt seem so clear anymore.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[graceabounds]

Hello Soybean,

Thank you for your patience in waiting for a guide.

I’d be happy to be present with you in this process if you are still interested?

-Becca

[Soybean]

Hello Becca, I’m glad you’re available and I‘m definitely still interested.

[graceabounds]

Great.

It appears you are trying to live as if there is no self… instead of noticing there never was one.
:)

I am looking for stability in the realizations I had so far and integrating them in my life. I believe some internal changes happened after seeing there is no self and looking into why there are still reactions happening but the changes seem very internal and almost on a thought level and are not necessarily reflected in my behavior without effort

But tell me: who wants this to happen?
Isn’t that the seeker, pretending to be the liberator?
Look. The desire for integration is still selfing. The one who wants to become stable is the illusion.

There is no one to stabilize.

There is no transition into “living from no-self.”

Either this moment is seen clearly—or the illusion is believed. That’s it.


1. What does the idea of “me” consist of right now, in this moment?
List every piece you can find in direct experience.
Sensation, tension, story, voice, image—what builds the illusion right now?

2. Is there a feeler of sensation?
Bring awareness to the most dominant bodily sensation you can detect.
Is there a boundary where “you” end and the sensation begins?

3. Who is aware of thought?
The next time a thought appears—pause.
Can a thinker be found before the thought?

4. Who is typing this response?
Don’t give a thought based answer. Don’t explain. Look.
Watch the fingers move. Did “you” initiate the movement?

Oh, a little housekeeping. Here is a brief video about using the quote function on this forum.
https://youtu.be/QCbZYSvnTpc?si=4W-lyoNj7tlL2It9
It makes it easier to track which inquiry is being responded to.


Go through the above, don’t look in past experience. No analysis.

Look.

Then report what’s actually here.

:)
Becca

[graceabounds]

Checking in…
what is present?

[Soybean]

Hi Becca, I’m sorry for the late reply. I simply got distracted. Life doesn’t stop happening, I guess :)
Here my answers:

But tell me: who wants this to happen?
Isn’t that the seeker, pretending to be the liberator?
Look. The desire for integration is still selfing. The one who wants to become stable is the illusion.

There is no one to stabilize.

There is no transition into “living from no-self.”

Either this moment is seen clearly—or the illusion is believed. That’s it.

I agree, it is the doer wanting to do something that seems useful and change to another situation because it feels uncomfortable about the situation.

1. What does the idea of “me” consist of right now, in this moment?
List every piece you can find in direct experience.
Sensation, tension, story, voice, image—what builds the illusion right now?

The idea of me consists of someone sitting here, with a body, watching his hands type this message and with a room in the peripheral vision, feeling sensations inside the body and hearing the washing machine and sounds outside the apartment. A feeling/thought of hope that I am getting closer to being free by typing this message, an expectation that soon something will be different. Thoughts of do I need to list more to create a clearer picture of the idea of me. All that bunched together into a package of „my experience“ that is happening around and inside me with something observing it all is what is building the illusion. The belief that there is an I that is separate or in the center of everything.

2. Is there a feeler of sensation?
Bring awareness to the most dominant bodily sensation you can detect.
Is there a boundary where “you” end and the sensation begins?

I can’t find a hard boundary but just a vague idea of an object. It is more of an switching quickly back and forth between the sensation in my leg and the image of me being the observer or an image that overlays the sensation of the leg and an abstract feeling of „me“ being, so these two exist kinda simultaneously. But there is no boundary, it is more like the sensation exists and then I quickly switch to me or my feeling of being to attach the sensation to something because apparently sensations existing by itself is not an option for my thoughts or feelings.

3. Who is aware of thought?
The next time a thought appears—pause.
Can a thinker be found before the thought?

No thinker can be found but awareness is there kinda being on pause or waiting for the next thought to appear while other perceptions arise like sounds or movements.

4. Who is typing this response?
Don’t give a thought based answer. Don’t explain. Look.
Watch the fingers move. Did “you” initiate the movement?

If I try not to think something actively it feels like the answer is typing itself snd I am watching what happens but having the next word in mind or the idea in mind where this typing will go, also to check there is no spelling mistake. The fingers move freely like trained dogs that get some command from the inner voice and then move but what and when exactly they are doing depends on them.

[graceabounds]

Excellent.
You’re seeing the illusion. Good.

Now…
Is there an experiencer, right now, in any way, shape, or form? Is there a center? A someone?

Look precisely. Not thoughts about it. Not a story about “me watching experience.” Look.
What are you without the thought “I am”?

Where does the sense of being a self live in this moment?
Point to it. Find it.

What’s actually here when the idea of “me” drops for even a breath?

[Soybean]

Now…
Is there an experiencer, right now, in any way, shape, or form? Is there a center? A someone?

While reading this immediately thoughts are created, an inner dialog answering your question with „yes” and searching for things to fill in like body, observer, mind, thoughts. Center seems to be at the point that I can reach if I go backwards from where my visual focus is and I go as deep inside/inwards until I end up somewhere where my head is supposed to have its center.

Look precisely. Not thoughts about it. Not a story about “me watching experience.” Look.
What are you without the thought “I am”?

If I look into the world and without any thought there is just the world.

Where does the sense of being a self live in this moment?
Point to it. Find it.

The sense of being a self is created whenever there is a label attached to a form, e.g. spot on the wall, shape of the floor tiles. Pointing to it points to the inner voice, when the focus shifts from an object that is seen or sound that is heard to thoughts which create the inner monologue or pseudo-dialog. Thoughts talking to thoughts.

[graceabounds]

Center seems to be at the point that I can reach if I go backwards from where my visual focus is and I go as deep inside/inwards until I end up somewhere where my head is supposed to have its center.

Let’s examine.

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

The sense of being a self is created whenever there is a label attached to a form, e.g. spot on the wall, shape of the floor tiles

Fantastic looking!

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities ONLY with the following words: color, image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

[graceabounds]

Just checking in…

[Soybean]

Thanks for checking in. It took some time to get the ide (or so I believe) of the exercise.

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

It is clearly just a thought that says there must be a head. All I perceive is pressure. Looking closely I cannot even say where from the feeling but a thought tells me at my hands. However, it feels a lot like fighting or convincing the thoughts that they should believe there is no evidence for a head, or said differently, the self trying to convince itself that there is no head and also no self because thoughts say it must be the self who is looking for evidence it doesnt exist… endless back and forth, but I get the point of direct experience versus concept or expectation.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities ONLY with the following words: color, image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

Doing this exercise shows me that everything is just raw sensations before or after thought and this feeling of me or I is just inserted into the scene by thought. During the first two days the labeling caused some after thought but now if I say colors or sound or feeling, my awareness kinda stays there without going to thought as much as before and there is just the scene/whats happening. The moment I do this labeling it feels like everything drops and there is nothing to do and it is relaxing until thought comes back in and tries to get me to find or do something.

[graceabounds]

Yes. You’re in. This isn’t conceptual anymore—you’re seeing the actual mechanisms.

You’ve exposed two massive constructs in real time:
1. The Head is a Story: When you press your fingers to your skull and only find pressure—not a head—you’ve seen it. The “head” is a label over raw sensation. The sense of “me in here” hinges on that label. When that label crumbles, the central self collapses with it. Notice how thought immediately kicks in, trying to argue for the head’s existence—trying to preserve self by preserving the container of “me.”
2. Labels Disrupt Reality: With the labeling practice—color, sound, sensation, thought—you’ve stripped away identity and seen: everything is just happening. No “you” doing any of it. You described the shift perfectly: “the moment I do this labeling it feels like everything drops.” Yes. That dropping is the absence of a doer, a center, a controller. Just raw, unfiltered THIS.

Now let’s go further—right now.

Pause. Look.

What is happening right now—before the thought “I am doing this” arises?

Really. Look. Before “I am observing this moment” appears, is there any observer?

Are “you” doing anything right now—or is this moment simply appearing?

Keep your labeling going for a few breaths—sound, color, sensation. Stay right there.

Now…

Where is the one labeling?

Can you locate the one who is aware of all this? The one who says “I am seeing”? Describe them—what shape, what size, what location?

Or is it just:

Label… sensation… thought about labeling… sensation… thought?

No self. Just THIS. Again and again.

Report now. Don’t analyze. Tell me what’s here—right now, in raw experience.

[Soybean]

In the here, the right now, I can’t find anything but raw experience arising. It is like I would be distracted from myself as a separate person. But if I then look for the one that is doing the labeling a strange feeling/image arises: it is like a trapped animal in a sling and it wants to escape by moving very agitated but it can’t escape and at the same time I also can’t grab it.

[graceabounds]

Yes. Stay right here, right now.

Energetically that trapped animal is self-construct exposed. That’s what’s been pretending to run the show. You’re feeling it squirm because it’s been seen for what it is—a reactive tangle of thought and sensation trying to keep a role it never had.

Now don’t look away.

That agitated animal feeling—where exactly is it?

Really go into it. Don’t name or label or analyze.

Where is it? What shape does it have? What’s its temperature? Does it stay still? Shift? Vibrate? Contract?

There is nothing to fix, just let it process through.

This isn’t a problem. It’s the gate. What is being noticed is the illusion. It wants to move, explain, escape—because it can’t survive being seen directly.

Keep reporting.

[Soybean]

That agitated animal feeling—where exactly is it?

Really go into it. Don’t name or label or analyze.

Where is it? What shape does it have? What’s its temperature? Does it stay still? Shift? Vibrate? Contract?

It is sitting what feels behind the seen, backstage, inside the body moving like a flame in the wind. It is a warm shape shifting into different sensations that trigger thoughts. Sometimes more in the upper back then down to the lower belly.

There is nothing to fix, just let it process through.

This isn’t a problem. It’s the gate. What is being noticed is the illusion. It wants to move, explain, escape—because it can’t survive being seen directly.

You mean I shouldn’t look further into it and just let it be as it is not a problem, just something to observe and then leave it behind and move on?