The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand - theoretically - that what I think of as ‘me’ is a collection of habitual thoughts that are running on automatic. I’ve had some experiences of watching with without identifying with it.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to know what it’s like to really experience life without an idea of self. I know this is not meant to achieve anything in term of improving my experience of life. But I would like to get some of the insight for myself that I have learned from spiritual teachers. I would like to understand what is meant by freedom.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Well th I am a little nervous that like is like a cult induction like Scientology where people get personal information out of you to manipulate you! But in reality I think it will be prompts similar to the LU app that I will have to practice and report back on.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been practicing regular meditation and yoga for several years. I haven’t gone too deep into one tradition but have learned ideas and practices from teachers like Ram Dass, Sharon Salzberg, thich naht Hahn, Sadhguru, Mooji, Tara brach, Alan Watts, David Nichtern, Adyashanti. I have never done an extended retreat.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

Hi,

Thanks for your patience in waiting for a guide. I would be happy to be present in this inquiry with you. :)

Before we start please read both the following documents from LU carefully and let me know if you have any questions, doubts or reservations in regards to them:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Also:

I am a little nervous that like is like a cult induction like Scientology where people get personal information out of you to manipulate you!

Haha, nope. You don't even need to tell me your name.

Looking forward,
Becca

Hi Becca!
Thanks so much for doing this.
I’ve read through the links and I don’t have any questions - I’m ready and willing to look interrogate my beliefs and get to what’s true.

Great.

First, a little housekeeping:

1 If you haven’t yet, please subscribe to this thread by clicking the little wrench icon above (dropdown says ‘subscribe topic’). This way you will receive an email when I reply.

2 Please also watch this brief video on how to use the quote function in this forum. Use this liberally to answer each question individually and reference anything in our communication.
https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ?si=z_CWDFiEqh6qlcaC

I want to know what it’s like to really experience life without an idea of self. I know this is not meant to achieve anything in term of improving my experience of life. But I would like to get some of the insight for myself that I have learned from spiritual teachers.

So let’s start here. With getting out any and all beliefs and expectations about what it will mean when no self is experienced:

1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?
2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
3. What do you want not to happen?
4. What are you hoping for?
5. What is missing?

In gratitude,
Becca

1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?

Even though there is no “me” that awakens, I do expect that the illusory idea of “me” that exists will somehow change. I mean the types of thoughts that happen will change. Like an algorithm updating itself. So I do think the experience of life will change. And my experience of life is the only world I know, so I think the whole world will be different, and at the same time nothing will be different at all.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

When I have had moments of awareness of no self, the body and mind seems to relax and be ok with what’s happening, and have less compulsive reaching into the past and future - I don’t have to use as much effort to stay in the present moment like I usually do during meditation. And this lifelong nagging feeling that I need to be a “good person” or change something about myself drops away. So I expect the thought patterns that happen habitually will start to shift, the less time I spend believing that there is a controller or a witness. I don’t really know what that will be like but the glimpses I’ve had so far feel like a relief. Sometimes combined with grief. Grief that the “meaning” that I’ve found at points in life may be just another belief I am clinging to, that never existed. But I think this grief will drop away because it’s just another thought that happens only when I am identifying a self.
Yeah, I don’t know, it feels like a mystery.

3. What do you want not to happen?

Well, my mind is having a very very very very fun time thinking about enlightenment and no self, so I don’t want to get stuck just thinking about it.

4. What are you hoping for?

That life and growth and development will still happen but it won’t feel like a struggle or striving to make that happen anymore. I’m hoping that these moments of “ahhhhh” that I’ve experienced is something that can last. I skipped ahead to the next question - what is missing - and what I’m really hoping for is that the feeling that something is missing will be over. Or the feeling that I am somehow lacking or in need of fixing. The feeling that there’s gotta be an answer out there somewhere that my brain can reach if only I find the right thought to think. Ha

5. What is missing?

Nothing is missing. But a lot of the time, the knowledge that nothing is missing is missing.

I appreciate the detailed responses here. There is a lot that is already being seen through, so let’s dig into a couple of areas:

When I have had moments of awareness of no self, the body and mind seems to relax and be ok with what’s happening,

Yes. Because it is already the natural state…

I expect the thought patterns that happen habitually will start to shift, the less time I spend believing that there is a controller or a witness.

Who or what is spending less time believing?

Is there actually a “you” managing the process of belief? Or is belief just another thought arising on its own, like the weather changing?

what I’m really hoping for is that the feeling that something is missing will be over. Or the feeling that I am somehow lacking or in need of fixing. The feeling that there’s gotta be an answer out there somewhere that my brain can reach if only I find the right thought to think. Ha

You’re hoping that the search will finally end. But what if the seeking itself is the only thing generating that feeling of lack?

-Becca

Who or what is spending less time believing? Is there actually a “you” managing the process of belief? Or is belief just another thought arising on its own, like the weather changing?

Ah yes! Another thought. A thought that feels familiar. A thought accompanied by another barely perceptible thought “that thought is true” or “there past evidence for that thought”.

After a belief popped up “I am just an anxious person”, followed by the question “who is thinking that?”, the belief unraveled in all sorts of interesting ways and turned out to be full of holes.

You’re hoping that the search will finally end. But what if the seeking itself is the only thing generating that feeling of lack?

That is true. It makes sense. But there seems to be some paradox or irony there. Like, a year ago, I could have the thought “I’m anxious” and follow the instructions “just allow it, just watch it, don’t resist it, don’t try to change it, notice that the feeling goes away on its own.” The result of that practice is WORLDS away from today: having the thought “I’m anxious”, followed by “who is anxious” or “to whom is that thought occurring”? And watching the thought disprove itself and reveal so many other fallacies, and a feeling of real freedom and potential for change and also okayness with the way things are. Getting to this point happened because there was dissatisfaction, because there was seeking for an end to anxiety, because nothing else worked. I know there is no-one doing the seeking, and that knowledge is the only thing that quells the seeking, yet somehow it seems that the seeking helped!

Ah yes! Another thought. A thought that feels familiar. A thought accompanied by another barely perceptible thought “that thought is true” or “there past evidence for that thought”.

Yes exactly. Great noticing. At this level look closely:

We know what it is for a thought to arise. But what is it to believe a thought? What's going on there?
Normally speaking, belief is an attitude we have towards a thought, statement or proposition. It's not the thought itself, but something we think or feel about it.

Schematically, it's like this:

1 (Thought "A") "My spiritual path is the most effective one."

2 (Thought "B") "I feel strongly that A is true."

In this case, the belief about thought "A" is actually thought "B." This is ironic! When we believe a thought, it's just another thought, with maybe a touch of hope or fear (feelings) that it is true. Of course, the "believing" thought could take a different form. Instead of the mere statement that "I think A is true," the believing thought could be one or more other thoughts:

3 (Thought "C") "'When someone agrees with 'A', I feel a warm sense of pleasure."

4 (Thought "D") "When someone disagrees with 'A', I get hurt, angry or confused."

5 (Thought "E") ""Because of 'C' and 'D', I realize that I must really believe that "A" is true."

All of these are separate thoughts. Even the feelings and reactions mentioned in "C" and "D" are nothing more than other mental objects, other "thoughts" in a wider sense.
So the beliefs about thoughts are merely thoughts. They aren't really different from the thoughts themselves.

Getting to this point happened because there was dissatisfaction, because there was seeking for an end to anxiety, because nothing else worked. I know there is no-one doing the seeking, and that knowledge is the only thing that quells the seeking, yet somehow it seems that the seeking helped!

Yes the energy or momentum of seeking is helpful. It is like a great lie detector, that something isn’t quite right. We use that in this process to really dig up assumptions and beliefs that have deep roots. To really LOOK and see what is occurring.


Let’s try something. Please read and say to yourself several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

Don't try to get anything right, just share what is seen, unfiltered. Generally this process will be driven by seeing what is already happening, what is already the case. What is effortlessly seen while engaging questions and exercises is what is important. What you actually write me is secondary to that.

Thank you for that breakdown of beliefs! I’m going to keep watching out for those thought forms. I hadn’t really thought about emotions as a thought form before.

Here are my notes from the ‘there is no separate self, there never was, there never will be’ exercise:

No reaction
I see my reflection in the window
Things feel vivid and still
Across the street someone moves past a window, gives me a fright.
It happens again.
I see my body react again in a similar way - alert and focused on the movement.
I look at the cursor blinking on my phone. My hand starts to type before my mind can catch up with it.
I can taste the tea in my mouth but not the tea in my partner’s mouth. Is that not a separate self knowing separate experiences?
The sky is getting lighter. I think about how the weather and seasons change my energy levels, my mood, my ‘personality’
I catch my hand scratching my eyebrow without a ‘controller’ telling it to.
Is it my hand?
I think about how thoughts and emotions feel more like ‘me’ than the world I observe outside the boundaries of my body.
And then about what that boundary is. My partner knows when I am ruminating or feeling sad, constricted, happy, because of what my body does. Inside and outside aren’t as separate as they feel.
Slight fear that there is no hiding from the world because I am always in it. Or I am it.
I think about shame, a common driving force in my life, and how shame comes from the idea that I am separate from the world and should be able to control myself according to expectations I’ve learned from somewhere.

This is a beautiful, sharp and honest breakdown. Let’s press deeper into it.

If there is no boundary between inside and outside, no true owner of thought, sensation, or movement—then what exactly is this “I” that shame clings to?

Shame depends on a belief in separation, in a self that could have been different, done better, been more in control. But if no separate self exists, what exactly is supposed to be ashamed? What is actually here, now, before any story tries to explain it?

I think it’s a sequence of thoughts that have a strong emotional charge - a fear of rejection/abandonement woven into them.

I don’t know if there is shame without a story because the story comes first. The “should” story.

Then the thoughts/feelings/actions happen that don’t align with the “should” story.

And then comes the shame.

Without a connection to a “should” story there is just stuff happening.

Is there any specific sensations happening in the body that arise with the should/shame story?

Slight fear that there is no hiding from the world because I am always in it

Same here… is this an embodied fear or in thought only?

My chest and stomach muscles contract and my spine curls inwards - like my body is trying to get smaller and avoid eye contact. Sometimes I find myself holding my breath.

Going to give a little formula and see how this meets what is being noticed here:

thought + sensation = emotion

So one way to work on fear or resistance that emerges around shame is to go into the thoughts sequence and Look at each one. But another option is to feel into the sensations directly, detach them from the thoughts and let them have freedom to emerge and play themselves out.

So this contraction that is being noticed in the spine, the chest, the stomach. Without interpretation, without stories or making meaning about it, what is present? Sit with it for a while. Listen to it. Follow if it moves around the body. Staying with sensation only. No ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’. Is there any ‘I’ here? What emerges?

I’ve been working at this but I really want to practice it when the emotions are in full effect which is hard for me to generate without a real life situation popping up - so I’ll keep looking out for opportunities where there are strong emotions today.