Fetter and shadow work

[Kokorokandy]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand conceptually that we are all from the same ocean of consciousness. However, I have not seen though self. I have experienced smalls shifts on various occasions.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a community that will assist in pushing past self-identification, rather than solidifying and identifying with one another. I would like to see through self. Notice when I am mind identified and have it pointed to when I am unable to notice myself. I want to examine and challenge beliefs and reactions. I want to give space to feel and experience without the need to push or pull.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be pointed towards
seeing into the beliefs that are so pervasive that I do not realize they are beliefs. Help with dropping from mind identification into experience. To be able to see through the self I take myself to be.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I regularly question beliefs, reactions, feelings, and sensations.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi Kokorokandy
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Kokorokandy]

(is that what you want me to call you?)

Jenn

What time zone are in?

MST

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

Yes, I read through everything and I am ready to start.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jenn
It’s good to have you back!

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

MST

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

Yes, I read through everything and I am ready to start.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Kokorokandy]

What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Nothing, life will remain the same. However, as assumptions, beliefs, and labels start to fall away, experience will change.

What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

The need or belief that something can be controlled is something I would like to see through. Less resistance to this or that happening because there will be an experience of nothing to control and no one to control, whatever the perceived thing is.How this comes about I am not sure of what or how this should look.

What do you want not to happen?
Fear of becoming destabilized without support. I know where the fear and belief took root. There is also a fear of failure, even knowing this is conceptual.

What are you hoping for?
See life as it is, experience life as it comes, without all of the perceptions, conditioning, and beliefs. I do not expect life to be different. I hope the frames fall away.

What is missing?

nothing is missing.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jenn

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Fear of becoming destabilized without support. I know where the fear and belief took root. There is also a fear of failure, even knowing this is conceptual.

Let’s examine this carefully. Fear serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects the new improved “you” from losing the accomplishment/from failing. But let’s be clear here… If there’s no “you” holding the belief, who exactly is afraid of failure?
And failure of what? Is there anything here, right now, that needs support and stabilising?
Anything that can fail?

Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Can you locate anything that is actually at risk?
Please let me know what you find.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work as there are no medals at the end - this is entirely for your own benefit.

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Jenn
It's been three days... Is everything OK? We agreed on a daily communication and that you will let me know if there is an obstacle to this. The purpose for this is to build up a momentum, a momentum of looking, and it also it lets me know if a person is really interested in doing this or not. This is not about making it rigidly so, exceptions (vacations, times where something else is called for, etc) are fine (please let me know so I don't move on another guidee) and in the end we will be guided by a flow beyond our decisions and imagination. So what I am checking in with here, is if this type of engagement feels right and is possible for you?
Looking forward to your reply!
Love
Rali

[Kokorokandy]

Is everything OK?

Yes, I sat with this Sunday and then had a few procedures yesterday and came home and slept until later today. Fear has been a huge and it has been a lot to sit with and unpack.

If there’s no “you” holding the belief, who exactly is afraid of failure?
And failure of what? Is there anything here, right now, that needs support and stabilising?
Anything that can fail

Nobody it is created by thought, sensation, and more thoughts that are reacting to the sensation. In the instance of this.

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

I could not find “fear” in my body, I can feel my face and other parts tensing up. So, I found specific sensations that occur if I am in a situation that or have certain thoughts that cause a reaction in the body. Then generally “what if” thoughts occur, which I know are thoughts.

Thoughts about dying, about my children dying, my heart gets a feeling similar to butterflies and my stomach drops.
Sitting with the no Jennifer, not a mom not a daughter like if the I just disappeared, felt ok. I felt like I was in a dream for about an hour and half. Drove somewhere and didn’t realize I was driving until I missed the turn off. I had awareness of going but how I got from point a to b was in my brain, if that makes sense.
I had an MRI for several hours yesterday morning and until a few years ago I refused due to fear of the small space, no control, and having trusting someone else. I used this experience to dig in a little deeper. While I did my best to stay with body sensations. I had a thought that if I let go in that situation, I couldn’t handle it. It felt like I was on the cusp of something though and I started to having a feeling of panic and opened my eyes in retrospect attempting to ground back to the body.
After that I stayed with body sensations. There was some intense pain that has lasted into today.

[Kokorokandy]

So what I am checking in with here, is if this type of engagement feels right and is possible for you?

Sunday, initially I felt some reluctance, so rather than digging right in, I started distracting with, how should I go about this? Should I meditate then journal, if so silent or guided? Should I just feel into it and not be so cerebral? Rather than trusting myself to “know” what to do I found myself spinning in circles for a while. Which tells me, eventually, that is exactly where I need to be.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jenn

I could not find “fear” in my body, I can feel my face and other parts tensing up. So, I found specific sensations that occur if I am in a situation that or have certain thoughts that cause a reaction in the body. Then generally “what if” thoughts occur, which I know are thoughts. Thoughts about dying, about my children dying, my heart gets a feeling similar to butterflies and my stomach drops. Sitting with the no Jennifer, not a mom not a daughter like if the I just disappeared, felt ok. I felt like I was in a dream for about an hour and half. Drove somewhere and didn’t realize I was driving until I missed the turn off. I had awareness of going but how I got from point a to b was in my brain, if that makes sense. I had an MRI for several hours yesterday morning and until a few years ago I refused due to fear of the small space, no control, and having trusting someone else. I used this experience to dig in a little deeper.

That’s it.
That’s the truth showing itself. No self, no “Jenn,” no mom, no daughter—just what’s here.
But then:
“I started to have a feeling of panic and opened my eyes…”
That moment—right there—is the reflex to re-assert identity.
Panic isn't fear of death. It's fear of losing the story. It’s the illusion trying to snap back into place.
The system flinching: “Wait—if there's no 'me,' what's here??”
Let the panic come. Let the body burn. But don't follow the thought.
Can you find anyone there—anywhere—in those sensations?
Is there truly someone inside that panic? Or is it a weather system with no center?

It’s not like the “I” existed before and now it dies/disappears. Like I said in my earlier replies, it’s just a shift of perception. How can an illusion have experiences/lack of them? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will…

Do you expect that somehow life will turn into a one of a zombie or a vegetable, where nothing gets done? Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.
Let’s examine this carefully. Fear/resistance serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. But let’s be clear here… why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?
You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.

While I did my best to stay with body sensations. I had a thought that if I let go in that situation, I couldn’t handle it. It felt like I was on the cusp of something though and I started to having a feeling of panic and opened my eyes in retrospect attempting to ground back to the body. After that I stayed with body sensations. There was some intense pain that has lasted into today.

What we’ll see soon is that fear is just a sensation with a thought (emotion = thought + sensation). Fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes- the survival of the imaginary self. So, obviously when threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary...

So check—right now:
What needs to be done? Who is doing it?
Can anything actually be held onto?
Or is this all just happening… on its own?
Stay.
Not with the story. But with the rawness. Let it undo what never belonged to you.
And tell me:
Where is Jennifer now? Can you find her? Where did you look? Is she the doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where does she "shines" the most?

Love
Rali

[Kokorokandy]

Can you find anyone there—anywhere—in those sensations?
Is there truly someone inside that panic? Or is it a weather system with no center?

No, I could not find anything, just sensation. I'm not sure if it is even panic. Flutters in the stomach and the heart drops, that is all that is happening. Quickly a thought forms that is panic, almost too fast for me to see it form, or to find the space between the sensations in the body and thought. There is nobody in the panic just and assumed label following the sensations.

Do you expect that somehow life will turn into a one of a zombie or a vegetable, where nothing gets done?

No, I am not sure what I expect to happen. I know that physically Jennifer won't disappear.

Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

This shifted my perception, I am sure I was upset maybe even devastated. However, after telling my 11 yr old he believed that I ruined everything. He was mortified. Yet Christmas is still something he enjoys and is pulled towards. I see the point you are making.

What needs to be done? Who is doing it?
Can anything actually be held onto?
Or is this all just happening… on its own?

Nothing can be held on to. Everything is fluid. Life is happening on its own. What needs to be done? Like in the relative world or as me being a doer? I believe I am doing it, brushing teeth, drinking tea, etc. When I question that, like, who is typing? Is it really who I think it is? I feel something in my chest, trying not to "think" so much about the question but sit with it.

Where is Jennifer now? Can you find her? Where did you look? Is she the doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where does she "shines" the most?

I am still investigating this. Again, chest sensation. Trying to stay away from narratives that reinforce Jennifer.

Thank you,
Jenn

[poppyseed]

Hi Jenn

Wonderful!

I am still investigating this. Again, chest sensation. Trying to stay away from narratives that reinforce Jennifer.

Great! Let’s keep on investigating but before we do let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, take a look and locate them. That’s how to look.

So, there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[Kokorokandy]

Hello Rali,

Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Is it like experience without using language to identify, assume, or label?

Can you please clarify this for me.


I also was wondering about inquiry. Should I read, investigate, and then respond?
What is coming up immediately or should I be sitting with the inquiry?
For me I feel it has been dependent on the inquiry itself.
Thank you for rolling with me and taking your time to guide me.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jenn

Thank you for rolling with me and taking your time to guide me.

It’s my pleasure guiding you!

Is it like experience without using language to identify, assume, or label?

Yes—right there.
Experience without language. Experience before the story about it.
There’s sensation, sound, colour, thought-forms flickering—but before the mind jumps in to carve it all up with names and stories, before “I”, “this”, or “meaning”…

I also was wondering about inquiry. Should I read, investigate, and then respond?
What is coming up immediately or should I be sitting with the inquiry?
For me I feel it has been dependent on the inquiry itself.

Does anything need to be done before seeing what’s already happening (what is here)? For example, do you need to be in a comfortable position, sitting on a cushion? Or …you would simply have a look and report? Do you need a special preparation to experience the taste of chocolate, or feel the warmth of your skin?
Looking/experiencing is immediate. Technically, if meditation helps you quieten the mind before you start, then do that, but in general looking does not require special efforts – it’s an effortless effort.
Right now—can you find the one who’s trying to do this inquiry right, the one who’s wondering how to do it?
No concept. Not “your brain.” Not “awareness.” Not the "body".
Where is the doer of inquiry? Where is "Jenn" responsible for doing it right? What would you describe?
Here is where the "apple" exercise comes handy - distingwishing between a label/thought and DE

Let’s do another experiment, which will help you see the difference between thinking about looking and actual looking. Close your eyes and imagine you are holding a cup of coffee. Imagine the warm sensation of holding the cup, the weight, form and size of the cup, the aroma, the colour of the coffee, the taste. Imagine as vividly as you can…
Now open your eyes… Where did the cup of coffee go? Was it ever here? How about the sensations you felt while imagining? Were they real? Were they happening?
You can repeat the experiment with a real cup of coffee to see the difference even better...

Please answer the questions from my previous reply as well!
Love
Rali

[Kokorokandy]

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No, the thought and word Apple is just that a thought and assigned label for a round, red, and shiny object. Even that description is just labels. Articulation becomes difficult. I would still recognize the apple without being able to articulate what this is.

Does anything need to be done before seeing what’s already happening (what is here)? For example, do you need to be in a comfortable position, sitting on a cushion? Or …you would simply have a look and report? Do you need a special preparation to experience the taste of chocolate, or feel the warmth of your skin?

No, it is pure experience. Sitting does quiet the mind however the mind also quiets when I am in direct experience.

can you find the one who’s trying to do this inquiry right, the one who’s wondering how to do it?

No, there is just the one looking for the one trying to do that, but now I can’t find the one who was looking. Now as I type this the looker is another thought/memory. I’m recalling what I was looking for.

Where did the cup of coffee go? Was it ever here? How about the sensations you felt while imagining? Were they real? Were they happening?

I can recall the smell because I have smelled it before. I can recall the warmth and the weight, but these are illusions and are made up in the mind.

Doing with this with an actual warm cup of coffee is felt it is visceral. The warmth in my hands is felt, the steam is present that was not when I was imagining. It has “realness” that thought does not.

Thank you with love
Jenn