Feeling stuck and looking for guidance

[chii]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Seeing that the self is made up of thoughts, sensations, beliefs, perceptual filters

What are you looking for at LU?
I constantly feel compelled to find the answers but I am currently feeling stuck. I feel like it have an intellectual grasp of the concepts and I am seeking guidance to clearly see through the illusion of self experientially.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm not quite sure what to expect. I guess I'm hoping to be guided to see the holes in my understanding and to the come to a place where I no longer have the feeling of feeling stuck and the seeking ends.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Meditating sporadically for about 10 years. Vipassana (Goenka body scanning), dabbled in all the different methods/teachers on the "Waking Up" app by Sam Harris, with seemingly little success. Currently following the different self inquiry methods suggested by Angelo Dilullo in his book and Youtube channel.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Alless]

Hello Chii

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.

Thank you for waiting. My name is Alan and I’m very happy to help you see through the notion of a separate self.

As I read what you write of your experience of feeling stuck really resonates. Even though it's a memory now I certainly know what you mean !

So if you would like to look deeply together, here are some suggestions to help make the best use of this opportunity:

Post daily to keep up the momentum. Life continues to happen and if for some reason you find you cannot post on a particular day, or need more time, just let me know. And I’ll do the same.

Leave aside all other “spiritual” related resources- books, teachings, models, theories, philosophy and the like for the duration of our investigation. This a chance to have a completely fresh look. Try to leave aside everything you learned up till now. Here we are going to depend on your Actual Experience, not from what you have read, heard, learned or believed so far. Only from what you yourself can observe directly in the moment from looking at what is here right now.

Be 100% honest. And write as much as you can about what you are experiencing. We avoid philosophy and theory. This is about honest exploration and we are not looking for what appears to be “right” answers. Just report as best you can only what you are experiencing in the moment.

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which will help in our conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s

Sometimes system glitches happen so it’s recommended that you copy and paste into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.

So if you'd like to get started just let me know if what we've covered here - and also in the links above - is all OK with you.

Do you have any burning questions?


Alan

[chii]

Hi Alan,

Thank you so much for volunteering to guide me!
I have read those links and am ready to proceed.

I am in the middle of silent retreat. The rules are quite relaxed here so I’m free to practice however I wish, however it may not be possible to type out lengthy responses on my phone. Would you recommend we start now or wait until I finish retreat? (Monday)

Thanks!

[Alless]

Hello Chii

(Or would you rather I used another name?)

Lovely to see your message

I sense it might be best until you've finished the silent retreat so that you can give yourself to it without distraction. That time for silence is a gift. I'll be really interested in what unfolds for you.

Just let me know when you're clear and we'll take it from there.

Looking forward to it

Alan

[chii]

Hi Alan,

Yes Chii is fine.
Thank you, you were right. I learnt the value of silence, presence and surrender in the retreat.
I'm very eager to begin the guiding now that I am back.

[Alless]

Hello Chii

BTW what time zone are you in?

I am on the east coast of Australia.

And regards another part of housekeeping, I will ask questions in blue text so you can spot them easily. Please take each of the questions separately and use the quote function to highlight which question you are answering

I noticed what you said here....

I learnt the value of silence, presence and surrender in the retreat.

What in particular was surrendered?




Did anything get in the way of your experiencing silence and presence?




Did you find a "me" separate to life that was the "experiencer" in this experience?



.

[chii]

I am on the east coast of Australia.

I am east cost Australia too! (Melbourne)

What in particular was surrendered?

Expectation. I began throwing in self inquiry questions during practice such as "Who or what is hearing this sound" or "Who or what is feeling this sensation in the feet" and my intention was to be open any answer. Each time attention would move to the pain in the chest which I was avoiding. I'm not sure that was the answer to the question but it seemed like there was meaning to that.

Did anything get in the way of your experiencing silence and presence?

The constant stream of thoughts. During one of the meditations, I began some inquiry into beliefs I had been forming about my practice which seems to have triggered a short period of complete silence and presence. There were no thoughts. I even got up and began walking meditation without thoughts or a sense of agency, which felt rather strange. After a while, the thoughts slowly started reappearing and the silence began to fade. During this period where thoughts were infrequent, I found it very easy to notice thoughts as they arose.

Did you find a "me" separate to life that was the "experiencer" in this experience?

I'm not quite sure how to find "me" or "the experiencer" in the memory of that experience. Is the "me" you're referring to the thoughts and sense of agency? During that experience, it kind of just felt like everything was just happening.
But right now it feels different. I'm searching my experience and I cant find any words for it or any way to describe it. Just a lot of confusion.

[Alless]

So you're in Melbourne !! Well ........that's really interesting Chii

Because not only am I on the east coast like you but I'm in Melbourne too!!. Much of the time on Mornington Peninsula but also in Blackburn at times.

Thank you for what you report from the Retreat. From what you describe I sense you have worked with inquiry quite a bit. What you have described here is rich with possibilities for our inquiry. From what you write I also sense you have worked with inquiry quite a bit, (tell me if that's so or not) so we will dive straight into it directly. I recognize that we might be "by passing" some necessary clarification on important terms we will use in this investigation such as direct experience. We can come back to that if necessary. However. let me ask this ......
Is it clear to you what is meant by "direct experience"?




If so, how would you describe "direct experience?

What in particular was surrendered?

Expectation.

Beautiful. And continuing to leave aside all expectations, all assumptions, preconceptions and ideas and the like about this exploration is essential

I began some inquiry into beliefs I had been forming about my practice which seems to have triggered a short period of complete silence and presence. There were no thoughts. I even got up and began walking meditation without thoughts or a sense of agency, which felt rather strange.

Now LOOK DIRECTLY into your experience right this moment without invoking thought in any way .......is the sense of agency anything else than just a thought?

Is the "me" you're referring to the thoughts and sense of agency?

As you look into your experience, what do you find? Is the sense of agency any more than a thought - albeit a pervasive thought?




Where did you go to find the answer?

Just a lot of confusion.

What is this confusion made of?



.

[chii]

Haha that's awesome, I just drove past Blackburn on the way back from retreat! I'm located in Springvale.

Yes I have been working with inquiry a bit lately, however I found it rather challenging due to the constant thoughts and lack of presence. One of the reasons for going to retreat was to improve mindfulness.

Is it clear to you what is meant by "direct experience"?
If so, how would you describe "direct experience?

My understanding is "direct experience" is whatever is happening in conscious experience in the present moment. I see that the past and future are made of thoughts (memories, imagination/expectation).

Now LOOK DIRECTLY into your experience right this moment without invoking thought in any way .......is the sense of agency anything else than just a thought?

Yes I can only find thoughts. I can't really detect the "feeling" in body sensations.

As you look into your experience, what do you find? Is the sense of agency any more than a thought - albeit a pervasive thought?

If I'm doing something familiar such as driving, the majority of actions are not preceded by a thought. Or if there is one, it's subtle and I don't detect it.
If I'm making a decision or there is a change of intention, it appears as a voice in my mind, which is a thought.

Where did you go to find the answer?

I'm searching my "direct experience" by being present and observing where attention moves when actions are preformed.

What is this confusion made of?

Confusion seems to be a series of questioning and doubting thoughts, appearing rapidly in succession, making it difficult to stay present.

[Alless]

Some very good observations here about thought Chii

First of all before we move on I'd like to come back to direct experience. I sense that while you have a handle on it to some extent and as it is at the heart of this investigation it will is key to be really clear on how we will use it. So .......


Direct or Actual Experience (DE or AE for short)

So many of us humans believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind) This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways - especially the subtle unconscious ways - in which we do this.

So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing. It is PURE

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience - Direct or Actual Experience. (DE or AE)

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.
What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?




Can you be 100% sure?




Now actually LOOK DIRECTLY ...... is the colour EXACTLY what you thought it was?




Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.

Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster.


One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels
Does anything in particular from that article resonate?




Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (consciously avoiding any labels where at all possible - that is using the most basic descriptive terms possible.)



What are you are hearing? (consciously avoiding any labels where at all possible - that is using the most basic descriptive terms possible.)




A

[Alless]

Hello Chi

Did you see my post?

Alan

[chii]

Sorry for the delayed response.

What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?

Black sock

Can you be 100% sure?

No I cannot be sure. I'm relying on a memory. I could be misremembering, drawing on a memory from another day, I may have forgotten I had changed socks etc.

Now actually LOOK DIRECTLY ...... is the colour EXACTLY what you thought it was?

While "black" is correct, it's not EXACTLY the same as the visual memory isn't as clear or vivid in comparison to the direct experience.

Does anything in particular from that article resonate?

I've read the article multiple times over the last day and while it seems to makes sense, I don't think its implications have fully sunk in yet.

What are you are seeing? (consciously avoiding any labels where at all possible - that is using the most basic descriptive terms possible.)

What are you are hearing? (consciously avoiding any labels where at all possible - that is using the most basic descriptive terms possible.)

It seems this is where we hit the limits of language. The most basic description that comes to mind is images and sounds. But I recognise that those are still labels. Any noun is a label. As in the exercise from the article, it seems like using the verbs "seeing" and "hearing" gets closer to it.

[Alless]

This is good Chii

It seems this is where we hit the limits of language. The most basic description that comes to mind is images and sounds. But I recognise that those are still labels. Any noun is a label. As in the exercise from the article, it seems like using the verbs "seeing" and "hearing" gets closer to it.

So lets take this further and just stick with pure seeing for now.

Imagine what a baby sees when they first open their eyes.
What would you say they are seeing?



Do they have any labels in their mind?



If you asked a five year old what they are seeing, would what they describe be any different to what a baby actually is seeing?



If no, why not?



If yes, how would it be different?



PART II

Labeling is one "overlay" of reality that is happening so instantaneously that it happens for most people automatically without them realizing it. Labeling pervades thinking. The aim is not to rid ourselves of labels (we have to use them to communicate in conventional daily living) but to see them for what they are. Labeling is sometimes described as at least one step removed from reality.

Here is an exercise to help see how labeling can cloud AE. (I’ll use AE/DE as short for Actual Experience or Direct Experience)
It actually can often demonstrate very nicely how AE can be hijacked by the mechanisms of the mind so instantaneously without us having a clue that it is happening.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

As you look at the word label ‘GREEN',
What is your actual experience?


You are seeing green, right? Or as you look at the word green are you actually seeing red but believing the minds interpretation of the word green?



Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?



Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?



If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?



Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?



Let me know what is SEEN.




Next time you go for a walk practice looking without labeling.
I’d love to hear. What happened?




And who or what is seeing?



Alan 

[chii]

What would you say they are seeing?

Pure unfiltered experience

Do they have any labels in their mind?

No labels

If you asked a five year old what they are seeing, would what they describe be any different to what a baby actually is seeing?

If no, why not?

If yes, how would it be different?

Yes it would be different. A 5 year old would have learnt language, labels and would have the ability to call upon memories.

What is your actual experience?

The voice in my mind says "Green" and then its followed by "It's red"

You are seeing green, right? Or as you look at the word green are you actually seeing red but believing the minds interpretation of the word green?

I'm actually seeing RED text but the label GREEN is added to it.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

I see that the label GREEN doesn't accurately reflect what I'm actually seeing.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

No it's just a label that appeared and is overlayed on top of the experience of RED.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No the label GOOD or BAD is just another label like GREEN.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels don't affect the reality of experience.

Let me know what is SEEN.

The redness remains the same. GOOD and BAD just appear as a label, a voice in the mind over the top of the experience of redness.

I’d love to hear. What happened?

The tendency to label and think is difficult to break. Going for a walk and labelling with just "seeing", "hearing" and "feeling" did seem more relaxing, open and present than usual. There were moments where it was just attention moving around experience as walking was happening.

And who or what is seeing?

I'm not sure what to do with this question. I ask it, attention moves to the experience of seeing and then the question is repeated...over and over

[Alless]

Lovely, What you report about the red and green experience is clear seeing Chii

I'm not sure what to do with this question. I ask it, attention moves to the experience of seeing and then the question is repeated...over and over

The question itself is of the mind and we have to ask to communicate. However acknowledging that .....

Where are you looking to find an answer? Are you expecting thought to give you an answer?




What happens if you simply ask the question just once - and don't go to or wait for an answer from the mind - but simply LOOK?




What do you experience when you ignore all thought and images about an answer? Please describe as best you can that direct experience as you simply LOOK and FEEL what's happening as you "do" that




So here is the question again .......who or what is seeing?




.