The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that this 'self' that I have been acting out my whole life, does not exist. It is made up by my mind and is just an illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for guidance to wake up from the "self". I have come to understand that awakening is available for any human and my "path" has now brought me to a group who claim to be able to assist me in making this (awakeing) a reality:) Currently I am edging on obsession with my spiritual work and realise that this is also a form of a new identity that I have created. No matter what I do, there still feels something missing and I can't seem to put my finger on it. My deepest desire is to awaken. It feels like I am in suffering loop with occasional spiritual firework moments so I am seeking for our/my/The Truth to free me from my thoughts

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be guided to by love and truth whilst having a complete open mind and letting go af absolutely everthing I thought I ever was. I expect to be guided into a new perception and also given some tips on living with this transcendance

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
From my spiriritual practices I came to understand that all roads lead inwards. The light of God is within me and I want to find, feel, see and share that flame

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Hi Coenraad, vince here. i will guide you..

I am looking for guidance to wake up from the "self". I have come to understand that awakening is available for any human and my "path" has now brought me to a group who claim to be able to assist me in making this (awakeing) a reality:) Currently I am edging on obsession with my spiritual work and realise that this is also a form of a new identity that I have created. No matter what I do, there still feels something missing and I can't seem to put my finger on it. My deepest desire is to awaken. It feels like I am in suffering loop with occasional spiritual firework moments so I am seeking for our/my/The Truth to free me from my thoughts

You're already seeing it—how the obsession with awakening has become another identity, another grasping. The seeker is the last layer, the most stubborn illusion. The belief that there is something missing keeps the wheel turning.

Right now, in this very moment, what is actually missing? Not in thought. Not in a concept. Right now. If you stop and do nothing—no effort, no movement toward or away—what is incomplete?

You are waiting for something to happen, something to change, some realization to arrive and make it clear. But what if there is no next step? What if the searching itself is the veil?

Drop every expectation. Awakening is not an event. It is not a state. It is not a feeling. It is the absence of the belief that anything needs to be different than this, right now.

What happens when you stop seeking, even for a second?

vince

Dear Vince

I appreciate your time and response and noted that I should not be chasing some event, state or feeling.

I have been having health issues and about to go into surgery soon and was going to postpone my reply but this is life, now, for me. The random pain and discomfort my "rent a body" has been nothing short of confusing as I expertienced these different "mind modes" of feeling healthy vs not feeling healthy, good vs bad and light vs dark. These are identity states correct?

I also realise that this ill/sick me is also yet another identity that I have been carrying for over six months... And yes, I am now seeking health, that state where everything is and will be okay.

When I stop seeking just for a second then everything seems to be just natural and in flow. But this jumps and my mind tells me it will be the same as always. The same loop patern that I need to suffer a bit in order to have that quick/brief aha moment after.

I am going to (try my best) drop all expectations of all posible outcomes:)

You mentioned: "The belief that there is something missing keeps the wheel turning." - Is this a wheel that should not be turning at all? Or should it stop?

Coenraad

I appreciate your time and response and noted that I should not be chasing some event, state or feeling.

I have been having health issues and about to go into surgery soon and was going to postpone my reply but this is life, now, for me. The random pain and discomfort my "rent a body" has been nothing short of confusing as I expertienced these different "mind modes" of feeling healthy vs not feeling healthy, good vs bad and light vs dark. These are identity states correct?

I also realise that this ill/sick me is also yet another identity that I have been carrying for over six months... And yes, I am now seeking health, that state where everything is and will be okay.

When I stop seeking just for a second then everything seems to be just natural and in flow. But this jumps and my mind tells me it will be the same as always. The same loop patern that I need to suffer a bit in order to have that quick/brief aha moment after.

First—thank you for responding in the middle of what life is offering right now. There is no "better" time to engage with this than exactly when things are as raw and immediate as they are for you now. Surgery, pain, discomfort—this is the perfect moment because it’s real. Not an abstract inquiry. Not an idea.

You are seeing it—the shifting identities, the ways the mind generates stories about "healthy me" vs. "sick me," as if these are separate, as if one is preferable to the other. But what is actually here when those labels drop, even for a moment? Not the idea of "dropping them," but the actual experience of right now without a story running over it.

That looping pattern you describe—suffering in order to get a temporary aha—is it actually necessary? Or is it just the mind’s conditioned pattern, its addiction to meaning-making?

And the wheel—should it stop? Who says it should or shouldn’t? Isn’t that just another layer of expectation? What happens if you don’t try to stop it? If you don’t try to keep it going either?

What if it turns? What if it doesn’t?

What remains?

Hello Vince

What remains is silence. Silence, then moments/streams of thoughts and senses that appear. Some moments are replays and some are new. When I look deeper it feels like I am detached, lonely and almost non existing.

It feels like a full time time job to be aware of, and block distractions. Is it so hard or am I making this way harder on myself?

It feels unatural and uncomfortable to drop labels about everything and myself, especially the loop paterns of my moods and state of body pain because they are there and directly affect me. I can see how my mind creates these addiction paterns to meaning making as you mentioned. How do I end/ease/stop these paterns?

In the past year I had to deal with "identity shedding" which has created confusion and a sense of loss that brought me here to have this conversation with you. Why am I still feeling so empty, lost and dissatisfied? I mentally kind of understand that there is no self and that it was all made up. Why am I still so attached to it?

When I imagine my state of being when I was still a baby (with no identity attachments, yet) then there is that deep silence or something again that I cannot pinpoint? Is it awareness or just a memory of a quiet state of being?

Hi Coenraad, What remains is silence. Yes. That. That is what has always been here.

And yet, the mind jumps back in—"this is unnatural," "this is hard," "I feel lonely," "I feel lost." But who is it that feels lost? Who is it that is dissatisfied? Look right now—don’t answer with the mind, look—is there an actual someone experiencing this, or is it just another stream of thoughts appearing and feelings that arise from that thought stream?

You say it feels like a full-time job to block distractions. But who is doing the blocking? And what is a distraction from? What if nothing needs to be blocked? What if distractions are just what is happening?

The patterns of meaning-making, the addiction to thought, the loops—they don’t need to be stopped. That’s just more resistance. Look right now—do they persist if they aren’t fed? Are you choosing them? Or do they just arise?

The sense of loss and confusion—who is experiencing them? Isn’t it just another mental position, another "me" claiming to be the one suffering? But if there’s no actual self behind it, then what is really suffering?

And that deep silence you associate with being a baby—that never left. It is not a memory. It is not a past state. It is right now. The only difference is that now, thoughts claim ownership over experience. They claim to be you. But they are just thoughts.

Right now, where is the one who is lost? Don’t tell me. Look.

vince

Hello Vince

I have been "looking" or at least trying to "actively" do so from the heart since your last message. My current circumstances has "improved" in the last couple of days, especially my health. So I have been looking what remains the same when I'm ill vs not ill. What remains is still only a sense of silence with some splashes of melancholy and acceptance.

I am mentioning acceptance as I dove deep to accept my circumstances. This brought me to a space where I am okay with things as they are. But in the same breath, this also got me to a point where I am perhaps too comfortably numb with life? My aunt passed away yesterday and I felt almost just okay with it, no sadness. It happened and it just is...

Being an over senstive person by nature (yes, I see this a personality trait perhaps conditioned by childhood circumstances) I realised that this thing I carry is not real and simply just conditioned thoughts. So there is no physical sensitive person here, just a stream of thoughts of who I think I am/was/is. Is this just an idea in my head or should I just be aware of this senstive character playing out its role in life?

I also reaslise that when I am about to do some kind of inner work like; writing this post, going for treatment, therapy appointments or on route to yoga, I then go into resistance or anxiety mode. So my take is that I am mentally creating more suffering to accompany the already existing suffering... It's like my ego mind is actively making something up to intensify the situation and I can see it.

Right now I am just witnessing what is playing out around me without trying to label it. And when thoughts arrise, I try and catch, notice and welcome them. Being alone at the moment is making this a bit easier as I have less distractions to focus on not foccussing at all.

Coenraad

Hi Coenraad, Here is how to use the Quote Function
Firstly click on post reply,
Then When reading the other my post, Highlight (by dragging the mouse over) a section of text you want a quote (the question). Then go to the top of that panel click the “ icon.
That will paste into your reply Window panel the text that you highlighted surrounded by the other persons name at the beginning and square bracket/quote at the end. you then click after this and type in your reply to that particular question.
Repeat for the next question…Please quote and then answer every question I ask. For example, this:

That is what has always been here

and this:

But who is it that feels lost? Who is it that is dissatisfied? Look right now—don’t answer with the mind, look—is there an actual someone experiencing this, or is it just another stream of thoughts appearing and feelings that arise from that thought stream?

and this:

But who is doing the blocking? And what is a distraction from? What if nothing needs to be blocked? What if distractions are just what is happening?

and this:

That’s just more resistance. Look right now—do they persist if they aren’t fed? Are you choosing them? Or do they just arise?

and this:

who is experiencing them? Isn’t it just another mental position, another "me" claiming to be the one suffering? But if there’s no actual self behind it, then what is really suffering?

and this:

They claim to be you. But they are just thoughts.

and this:

where is the one who is lost?

What remains is still only a sense of silence with some splashes of melancholy and acceptance.

This kind of answers some of those questions, so let's investigate more..
Yes. This is it.
Silence. Melancholy. Acceptance. A splash of this, a ripple of that. Nothing to hold onto, nothing solid. Just this, happening.

And even the melancholy—does it belong to someone? Or is it just another wave passing through? If no story wraps around it, if no identity picks it up—what is it, really?

Look now—does this silence actually lack anything? Is there a thought that says something is missing?

Stay here. Not as a practice. Not as a doing. Just because this is already the case. Can you feel that you already are...?

I am mentioning acceptance as I dove deep to accept my circumstances. This brought me to a space where I am okay with things as they are. But in the same breath, this also got me to a point where I am perhaps too comfortably numb with life? My aunt passed away yesterday and I felt almost just okay with it, no sadness. It happened and it just is...

Yes. It happened, and it just is. No story, no extra suffering. Just this.

And yet, the mind comes in—"Am I too numb? Should I feel more? Am I doing this wrong?" Who is asking this? Is there really a "too much" or "too little" way to experience what is already happening?

Notice—there was no struggle with your aunt’s passing, no resistance, no clinging to a narrative about how it should feel. But now, the mind wants to create a new struggle: "Am I supposed to feel more?"

What if there is no "correct" way to experience loss? What if this—this quiet, this natural okayness—is what’s left when suffering isn’t manufactured?

Look now—does anything actually feel wrong about this moment, or is it only thought trying to make it wrong?

Being an over senstive person by nature (yes, I see this a personality trait perhaps conditioned by childhood circumstances) I realised that this thing I carry is not real and simply just conditioned thoughts. So there is no physical sensitive person here, just a stream of thoughts of who I think I am/was/is. Is this just an idea in my head or should I just be aware of this senstive character playing out its role in life?

You see it. There is no physical "sensitive person" here—just thoughts claiming ownership over experience. A story looping, trying to solidify into an identity.

So what happens if you don’t do anything with it?

No need to deny it. No need to fix it. Just see it. Let the "sensitive character" play out, but without an owner. Like a cloud passing. Does a cloud need to be managed?

Right now, without picking up any narrative—are you actually sensitive? Or is "I am sensitive" just another thought, appearing in the vast space of now?

See what happens when you let it be just another thing happening, rather than who you are.

I also reaslise that when I am about to do some kind of inner work like; writing this post, going for treatment, therapy appointments or on route to yoga, I then go into resistance or anxiety mode. So my take is that I am mentally creating more suffering to accompany the already existing suffering... It's like my ego mind is actively making something up to intensify the situation and I can see it.

Yes! You see it.

The mind is layering suffering on top of suffering, as if the first layer wasn’t enough. It needs drama. It needs resistance. It needs something to push against because that’s how the illusion of a “self” stays alive.

But now you’re catching it. You see the mechanism. And here’s the thing—the seeing itself is already enough.

No need to fight it. No need to "overcome" it. What happens if you just let the resistance be? Let the anxiety be. Don’t believe it. Don’t push it away. Don’t engage. Just let it do its thing, like watching a storm pass through.

Can resistance even survive if it’s not being resisted?

Right now, look—without believing the mind’s narrative about it, where is the problem?

Right now I am just witnessing what is playing out around me without trying to label it. And when thoughts arrise, I try and catch, notice and welcome them. Being alone at the moment is making this a bit easier as I have less distractions to focus on not foccussing at all.

Yes. Just witnessing. No labeling. No controlling. Just this.

And even when thoughts arise, you see them. You catch them. You welcome them. So what struggle is left?

The distractions were never the problem. The focus was never the problem. Nothing was ever the problem.

Right now—without effort, without trying—is anything actually missing?

with love

vince

Hello Vince

Noted on Quote Function so here goes:)

That is what has always been here

- Mentally, I understand this as that simple being of silence in the background that covers me like a "blanket", when I deliberately "put" myself there, it seems "light" yet still very foreign and weird in sense... It's part of me and it's not. I tried going there with many "vehicles" as if its a place to visit but its also not; like a holy barrier to cross but with some tasks/life to complete or realise en route.

But who is it that feels lost? Who is it that is dissatisfied? Look right now—don’t answer with the mind, look—is there an actual someone experiencing this, or is it just another stream of thoughts appearing and feelings that arise from that thought stream?

- It is the perception of someone that I thought I created or who I thought was in "control" of that feels lost. And I realise that I feel less lost when I am in a better mood for instance. So feeling less lost when in a different mood did not really change anything other than those thoughts rulling a but harder at that moment when I experienced it. So yes, all just thought streams.

But who is doing the blocking? And what is a distraction from? What if nothing needs to be blocked? What if distractions are just what is happening?

- I see how distractions are just happening. Boredom is a classic expample for me; I should be doing this, thinking that, blocking that... Its my thoughts just spinning.

That’s just more resistance. Look right now—do they persist if they aren’t fed? Are you choosing them? Or do they just arise?

- They just arise by themselves. Sometimes due a current theme or emotion they will be stronger or less.

who is experiencing them? Isn’t it just another mental position, another "me" claiming to be the one suffering? But if there’s no actual self behind it, then what is really suffering?

- There is definitely something feeling the suffering and I am aware of that, its just the intensity that changes due to mental positions as you say.

They claim to be you. But they are just thoughts.

- So what is left then? I feel I least have to claim to be something arent I? Who is typing this now and with what intention/idea/outcome/dream am I doing this seeking liberation for? I feel sometimes that I should be arriving somewhere and that creates suffering.

where is the one who is lost?

- Stuck somewhere in my head of thoughts judging, labelling, waiting...

What remains is still only a sense of silence with some splashes of melancholy and acceptance.

- Yes. And learning to have patience, lots of it:) I carry this sense of uneasiness that I should have been more advanced in life than I currently am. I do see the ridiculousness in this as life is just playing out as it should but I definitely carry a degree of shame and guilt as part of my thought library.

And even the melancholy—does it belong to someone? Or is it just another wave passing through? If no story wraps around it, if no identity picks it up—what is it, really?

- It doesnt belong to someone and it is just another wave passing through. With no story or identity it could be non existing, but I am definitely aware its there as I have evidence or a story to support why I sometimes feel melancholy. So that story kind off gives me permission to feel that.

Look now—does this silence actually lack anything? Is there a thought that says something is missing?

- No the silence does not lack anything. Yes, a lingering thought that I simply just want to live out my life's purpose, whatever that may be. I am missing to connect with people again, work on something passionately, creating or helping out. But those are events and then's so I see my mind once again not just being okay with being. What will make things better asap for me are one the highways of thoughts.

Stay here. Not as a practice. Not as a doing. Just because this is already the case. Can you feel that you already are...?

I can yes, if I completely drop everything!

And yet, the mind comes in—"Am I too numb? Should I feel more? Am I doing this wrong?" Who is asking this? Is there really a "too much" or "too little" way to experience what is already happening?

- Yes, the mind is mostly there with all these questions on how to correctly experience what is happening. I see that am trying to add something to water to make it more water-ish, and it is not going to make a difference.

Notice—there was no struggle with your aunt’s passing, no resistance, no clinging to a narrative about how it should feel. But now, the mind wants to create a new struggle: "Am I supposed to feel more?"

- Yes, and I also ask what would I usually have done,felt or added in this situation. I see that I am activating a new struggle for no reason. Right now my question is who can I look up to as an example of correct beingness? Is there such a thing? Silly I know but it is this constant reasurance that I need while exploring this thing of who is asking all these questions, how will it turn out? Am I doing the right thing? And what will I do if actually "get" this? I see what my mind is doing.

What if there is no "correct" way to experience loss? What if this—this quiet, this natural okayness—is what’s left when suffering isn’t manufactured?

- Then there will be no emotional attachment to anything? Is this not taking away from being human, to experience something?

Look now—does anything actually feel wrong about this moment, or is it only thought trying to make it wrong?

- It is for sure only thoughts trying to make it wrong. Nothing at all wrong about this moment.

So what happens if you don’t do anything with it?

- Nothing happens if I dont give it power. It just is.

No need to deny it. No need to fix it. Just see it. Let the "sensitive character" play out, but without an owner. Like a cloud passing. Does a cloud need to be managed? Right now, without picking up any narrative—are you actually sensitive? Or is "I am sensitive" just another thought, appearing in the vast space of now?

- You are right, its all just thoughts like passing clouds. I am claiming ownership of something that cannot be me, if I die, then I am not taking my character with me, I presume. So it just another something cemented in my ego.

Right now, without picking up any narrative—are you actually sensitive? Or is "I am sensitive" just another thought, appearing in the vast space of now?

- Right now, I am not sensitive but I was this morning... Yep, its just more and more thoughts coming and going.

See what happens when you let it be just another thing happening, rather than who you are

- I sense a feeling of peace now. I can hear thunder, birds chirping and smell rain. Without protecting who I think I am, things are clearer and peaceful.

No need to fight it. No need to "overcome" it. What happens if you just let the resistance be? Let the anxiety be. Don’t believe it. Don’t push it away. Don’t engage. Just let it do its thing, like watching a storm pass through. Can resistance even survive if it’s not being resisted? Right now, look—without believing the mind’s narrative about it, where is the problem?

- Right now there is no problem if I just let things be. In a hour or tommorow morning it might be totally different, but now, all is good.

And even when thoughts arise, you see them. You catch them. You welcome them. So what struggle is left?

- What struggle is left hasn't arrived in my thought stream, yet. But confident my mind will whip up something old or new soon:)

Right now—without effort, without trying—is anything actually missing?

Nothing missing at all right now.

How do I stay here?

Coenraad

Hi Coenraad,

There is definitely something feeling the suffering and I am aware of that, its just the intensity that changes due to mental positions as you say.

Yes. **Something feels the suffering.** There’s pain, sensation, intensity—and then the mind arrives and says, *"this is mine."* But look directly:

**What is this "something"?**
Can you find an actual entity experiencing it? Or is there simply the raw, unowned sensation—appearing, shifting, disappearing?

Suffering intensifies when a mental position is taken—when there's an identity ("I am suffering," "This is happening to me"). But without this narrative, is it still suffering, or is it simply sensation arising and passing?

Look now, immediately, directly:

**Who or what exactly owns this suffering?**
**Where is the one who suffers?**

- So what is left then? I feel I least have to claim to be something arent I? Who is typing this now and with what intention/idea/outcome/dream am I doing this seeking liberation for? I feel sometimes that I should be arriving somewhere and that creates suffering.

Exactly! You see it: the idea that you have to be something is the root of the suffering. Look closely, right now, as you type these words:

Who is typing?
Is there really someone there, behind the eyes, directing these words onto the screen? Or are fingers simply moving, words appearing, thoughts flowing?

You ask, "With what intention am I seeking liberation?"
But look right now—is there really someone who needs liberation? Or is there just the idea "I must become free," playing itself out again, spinning another identity?

Check this directly:

Is this about arriving somewhere?
Or is this exactly about realizing that there's nowhere to arrive?
Right now, if you let go of the expectation of "arriving," is anything missing at all? Or is this moment already complete, exactly as it is?

I definitely carry a degree of shame and guilt as part of my thought library.

Yes, exactly. Notice clearly:

You say, "**I definitely carry** shame and guilt." But pause there—look deeply:

**Who or what is actually carrying these things?**

Are shame and guilt personal possessions, or are they just thoughts, feelings, and sensations appearing in the present moment?

Right now—don’t analyze, just **look:**
- Is there an actual entity here who *owns* shame, or is there just the raw sensation of contraction, heaviness, maybe tension?
- When guilt arises, does it have your name on it, or is it just another movement of energy appearing and dissolving?

Notice that it’s only when the mind says "**this is mine**" or "**this is about me**" that the suffering intensifies.

Right now, if you don’t attach any story—
**Can you find someone who actually needs to carry shame or guilt?**

Or are these simply waves passing through a space that you truly are?

With no story or identity it could be non existing, but I am definitely aware its there as I have evidence or a story to support why I sometimes feel melancholy. So that story kind off gives me permission to feel that.

Exactly. **You’ve pinpointed the mechanism.**

Notice clearly what you said: "*The story gives me permission to feel melancholy.*"
Look at this carefully, right now, as it’s happening:

- **Does melancholy need a story to exist?**
- **Does the story actually justify or amplify the feeling?**
- **Who exactly is being given permission?**

Without the supporting story, without the "evidence"—is melancholy still melancholy, or just a neutral sensation, floating freely?

Right now, look closely:

**Can you find the exact moment when melancholy becomes "yours"?**
Or is ownership of the feeling just another subtle thought, quietly attaching itself to sensation?

What happens if you don’t take the bait?

a lingering thought that I simply just want to live out my life's purpose, whatever that may be. I am missing to connect with people again, work on something passionately, creating or helping out. But those are events and then's so I see my mind once again not just being okay with being. What will make things better asap for me are one the highways of thoughts.

Perfectly seen!

Notice how clearly you've described it:

The mind says, "*I want to find purpose, passion, connection—then I'll be complete.*" But see right now—this very thought creates a feeling of incompleteness, of something missing.

**Check immediately:**

- **Does the desire for purpose, passion, or connection indicate something actually missing right now?**
- **Is fulfillment truly found "out there" in an event, or is it another mental story postponing peace?**

Without following the thought about what might make things better in the future:

**Is anything actually wrong or incomplete right now, exactly as it is?**

Look directly. No future. No past. **Just this.**

What's left?

I sense a feeling of peace now. I can hear thunder, birds chirping and smell rain. Without protecting who I think I am, things are clearer and peaceful.

Yes. Exactly this.

Thunder. Birds chirping. Rain.
Clearer and peaceful, without anyone needing protection.

See how effortlessly peace appears when there's no identity to defend, no narrative to uphold.

Right now:

Does anything need to be added to this peace?
Can it be improved?

Or is it simply this—complete, exactly as it is?

Rest here. This is home.

What struggle is left hasn't arrived in my thought stream, yet. But confident my mind will whip up something old or new soon

Yes! Clearly seen.

Notice this:
The mind is already *anticipating* its own disturbance—*waiting* for a struggle to return. But right now:

- **Where exactly is this future struggle?**
- **Does it exist anywhere outside a thought about it?**

If you don't anticipate or resist, can struggle even arise? And even if it does arise again—so what? It’s just another cloud passing through.

Right now, without anticipation:
**Is there any struggle here at all?**
Or is this simply the peace that's always been, quietly waiting beneath every passing thought?

Nothing missing at all right now.

How do I stay here?

Beautifully clear.

But look directly at your question: "**How do I stay here?**"

- **Who is it that needs to stay?**
- **Can you actually leave this moment, this clarity, this peace?**

The idea that you must "stay" here is another subtle trick of the mind, creating a seeker, trying to turn even this freedom into something to be maintained.

Look clearly, immediately:

**Is there really somewhere else you can be, other than exactly where you already are?**

Check directly, in this moment—
**Can this peace ever truly be lost?**
Or is it always here, already, effortlessly, waiting for nothing, needing nothing?

See this, again and again, as often as the mind tries to move you away:

**You cannot leave this. You never have.**


with love

vince

Hello Vince

Yes. **Something feels the suffering.** There’s pain, sensation, intensity—and then the mind arrives and says, *"this is mine."* But look directly:

**What is this "something"?** - It is a collection of feelings/emotions/sensations, a familiar feeling of a negative or low vibrational state that my "whole" finds itself in and I give/label it a negative. Its a force of sorts that I experience and am aware of.
Can you find an actual entity experiencing it? Or is there simply the raw, unowned sensation—appearing, shifting, disappearing? - I cannot find an entity except that I presume its coming from my bodies direction. Yes, those raw sensations are always changing moment to moment.

Suffering intensifies when a mental position is taken—when there's an identity ("I am suffering," "This is happening to me"). But without this narrative, is it still suffering, or is it simply sensation arising and passing? - Yes I see that a mental position taken would lead me to suffering. With no narrative there is no suffering and yes, the sensations keep coming and going

Look now, immediately, directly:

**Who or what exactly owns this suffering?** - My mind and my feelings or perhaps something tied or related to me
**Where is the one who suffers?** - Somewhere in my space of beingness

Exactly! You see it: the idea that you have to be something is the root of the suffering. Look closely, right now, as you type these words:

Who is typing? My fingers from my body being instructed by senses, thought, memory, habit and some reason as to why I should be answering by typing.
Is there really someone there, behind the eyes, directing these words onto the screen? Or are fingers simply moving, words appearing, thoughts flowing? - I am not sure what or if someone is there but there is this being that I presume is conneted to this person typing.

You ask, "With what intention am I seeking liberation?"
But look right now—is there really someone who needs liberation? - Something tells me that liberation could be positive for me. It tells me that I am a seeker and that I should persue something by doing something or there might not be any results. Or is there just the idea "I must become free," playing itself out again, spinning another identity? Yep, its definitely an idea I constructed way back even before I started meditating and walking this "path" or guidance that I am on. So I see that I am looking for a result or moment to play out that will or might satisfy me or this idea created.

Check this directly:

Is this about arriving somewhere? - It was my intention yes but it also feels like it is totally not in my control where I arrive. Those are just pipedreams to feed my "then it will be better" cravings.
Or is this exactly about realizing that there's nowhere to arrive? Yes it is. So its just being okay and contempt right now, no matter what is happening out there or in here?
Right now, if you let go of the expectation of "arriving," is anything missing at all? Or is this moment already complete, exactly as it is? - I feel it already complete when there is no expectations.

Are shame and guilt personal possessions, or are they just thoughts, feelings, and sensations appearing in the present moment? - They must just be thoughts in the present moment, I cannot draw them or physically show them to you or myself, but I can try and explain what I think I feel like.

Right now—don’t analyze, just **look:**
- Is there an actual entity here who *owns* shame, or is there just the raw sensation of contraction, heaviness, maybe tension? - No, no one "owns" this I would say but I am somehow connected to it by this heaviness that I connect with it.
- When guilt arises, does it have your name on it, or is it just another movement of energy appearing and dissolving? I feel affiliated to the guilt but not by my name, it stems I think from the moving energy that keeps changing all the time.

Notice that it’s only when the mind says "**this is mine**" or "**this is about me**" that the suffering intensifies.

Right now, if you don’t attach any story—
**Can you find someone who actually needs to carry shame or guilt?** - Not at all

Or are these simply waves passing through a space that you truly are? - Yes, I see them as passing waves. Some I wait out, some I can only ride out, some I "see" then they lose power
[/quote]

Exactly. **You’ve pinpointed the mechanism.**

Notice clearly what you said: "*The story gives me permission to feel melancholy.*"
Look at this carefully, right now, as it’s happening:

- **Does melancholy need a story to exist?** - Yes it does. With no story it would just be nothing and not relevant.
- **Does the story actually justify or amplify the feeling?** - As I give it a negative, it amplifies the feeling so it seems justified.
- **Who exactly is being given permission?** - Some obscure idea of my percieved identity.

Without the supporting story, without the "evidence"—is melancholy still melancholy, or just a neutral sensation, floating freely? - It is or becomes just a neutral sensation if it has no "ownership".

Right now, look closely:

**Can you find the exact moment when melancholy becomes "yours"?** - Not really. But I would just wake up in the morning then it's there and I try to figure out what manifested it. I see that I should just see it as passing through. Thing is that sometimes it lingers for way too long (days) and that is what gets me, I want it away = more suffering.
Or is ownership of the feeling just another subtle thought, quietly attaching itself to sensation? - It definitely is! This morning a had a random thought when I felt kind of a similar sensation walking down a hill in France anout 30 years ago. I see the insanity of this:)

What happens if you don’t take the bait? - Nothing, it cancels itself out.

Perfectly seen!

Notice how clearly you've described it:

The mind says, "*I want to find purpose, passion, connection—then I'll be complete.*" But see right now—this very thought creates a feeling of incompleteness, of something missing.

**Check immediately:**

- **Does the desire for purpose, passion, or connection indicate something actually missing right now?** - It feels like it yes.
- **Is fulfillment truly found "out there" in an event, or is it another mental story postponing peace?** - No, my heart says fulfillment is not "out there" and will never be no matter what I do or chase. I see how this story is postponing peace, now.

Without following the thought about what might make things better in the future:

**Is anything actually wrong or incomplete right now, exactly as it is?** - Like exactly right now at this moment I feel intensely fatigued and a bit irritated due to a chain of events/thoughts: Had a less than average meditation session last night, didnt sleep well, woke up groggy... But without those stories and current emotions felt, nothing would be wrong or incomplete.

Look directly. No future. No past. **Just this.**

What's left? - Me just being right here, breathing and witnessing.

Yes. Exactly this.

Thunder. Birds chirping. Rain.
Clearer and peaceful, without anyone needing protection.

See how effortlessly peace appears when there's no identity to defend, no narrative to uphold. - Yes, crytsal clear.

Right now:

Does anything need to be added to this peace? - No
Can it be improved? - No. I see when I try to improve it, I create suffering and confusion.

Or is it simply this—complete, exactly as it is? - Yes

Rest here. This is home. - Aka Loving awareness, beingness and "now"? I see at the same space a tree or a rock would "reside" in with no spicing up extra ideas/thoughts to make it more than it actually is.

Yes! Clearly seen.

Notice this:
The mind is already *anticipating* its own disturbance—*waiting* for a struggle to return. But right now:

- **Where exactly is this future struggle?** - Somewhere in a mental postbox waiting to be delivered and I just have no control how and when this would happen.
- **Does it exist anywhere outside a thought about it?** - Not at all

If you don't anticipate or resist, can struggle even arise? And even if it does arise again—so what? It’s just another cloud passing through. - I get you on this, just another passing cloud.

Right now, without anticipation:
**Is there any struggle here at all?** - Apart from my current mood which is just passing through, there is no struggle. I see that I can be deeply unhappy or frustrated and hard on myself for things not in my control.
Or is this simply the peace that's always been, quietly waiting beneath every passing thought? - Yes, that peace is there always but some times/days my filter is not "set" to realise it. I see another familiar loop here, got to bring myself down so I can pick myself up again. It's an addiction pattern playing on repeat.

Beautifully clear.

But look directly at your question: "**How do I stay here?**"

- **Who is it that needs to stay?** - My inner longing/drive to reside in peace all/most of the time. I have this urge to just flow with life but I see how I create my own resistance over and over...
- **Can you actually leave this moment, this clarity, this peace?** - No. But I sure can think/feel myself out of it it seems.

The idea that you must "stay" here is another subtle trick of the mind, creating a seeker, trying to turn even this freedom into something to be maintained. - Wow! I see this and makes perfect sense. The maintenance of my wanted/desired state is creating even more suffereing.

Look clearly, immediately:

**Is there really somewhere else you can be, other than exactly where you already are?** - No I cannot. But my mind/ego/programming seems to differ completely. By now I am seeing that I cannot rely on my mind as I once thought I could or should.

Check directly, in this moment—
**Can this peace ever truly be lost?** - About two weeks ago, at the time I was in hospital, I truly felt that I lost peace completely. It was darker and deeper felt than ever "measured" before. So I feel that, if I have lost it then so badly then, when will it happen again? Is it even possible to go darker than what I went? Pure anxiety rulling again! So that was a perception of then, but right NOW, I am somewhere between having faith and inner knowing that it cannot be lost.
Or is it always here, already, effortlessly, waiting for nothing, needing nothing? - With this my mind is making a backflip again of what is my purpose here then if I dont need/want or try to do something? I am human and not a tree the mind tells me, humans should be doing something as they have hands and intelect.

See this, again and again, as often as the mind tries to move you away:

**You cannot leave this. You never have.** - Yes I see and my mind tells me sometimes it is not convinced and tries to move me away. I will practice seeing this whenever my mind shifts.

I really appreciate your time and patience with me Vince, just wanted you to know that.

Coenraad

Coenraad, quoting the questions makes it easy for me to see what you are responding to. Not including your answer in the quote makes them easy to see.
What you have done will take me a lot of time and effort to untangle. Would you untangle it for me please.
If you need more help with the quote function, this might help.. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

vince

Hi Vince,

I see what I have done grouping them, I will untangle them soonest.

Coenraad

Thank you. (a lot)

v

Hello Vince


"Yes. **Something feels the suffering.** There’s pain, sensation, intensity—and then the mind arrives and says, *"this is mine."* But look directly:"
**What is this "something"?** - It is a collection of feelings/emotions/sensations, a familiar feeling of a negative or low vibrational state that my "whole" finds itself in and I give/label it a negative. Its a force of sorts that I experience and am aware of.
Can you find an actual entity experiencing it? Or is there simply the raw, unowned sensation—appearing, shifting, disappearing? - I cannot find an entity except that I presume its coming from my bodies direction. Yes, those raw sensations are always changing moment to moment.

Suffering intensifies when a mental position is taken—when there's an identity ("I am suffering," "This is happening to me"). But without this narrative, is it still suffering, or is it simply sensation arising and passing? - Yes I see that a mental position taken would lead me to suffering. With no narrative there is no suffering and yes, the sensations keep coming and going

Look now, immediately, directly:

**Who or what exactly owns this suffering?** - My mind and my feelings or perhaps something tied or related to me
**Where is the one who suffers?** - Somewhere in my space of beingness
[/quote]

Exactly! You see it: the idea that you have to be something is the root of the suffering. Look closely, right now, as you type these words:

Who is typing? My fingers from my body being instructed by senses, thought, memory, habit and some reason as to why I should be answering by typing.
Is there really someone there, behind the eyes, directing these words onto the screen? Or are fingers simply moving, words appearing, thoughts flowing? - I am not sure what or if someone is there but there is this being that I presume is conneted to this person typing.

You ask, "With what intention am I seeking liberation?"
But look right now—is there really someone who needs liberation? - Something tells me that liberation could be positive for me. It tells me that I am a seeker and that I should persue something by doing something or there might not be any results.

Or is there just the idea "I must become free," playing itself out again, spinning another identity? Yep, its definitely an idea I constructed way back even before I started meditating and walking this "path" or guidance that I am on. So I see that I am looking for a result or moment to play out that will or might satisfy me or this idea created.

Check this directly:

Is this about arriving somewhere? - It was my intention yes but it also feels like it is totally not in my control where I arrive. Those are just pipedreams to feed my "then it will be better" cravings.
Or is this exactly about realizing that there's nowhere to arrive? Yes it is. So its just being okay and contempt right now, no matter what is happening out there or in here?
Right now, if you let go of the expectation of "arriving," is anything missing at all? Or is this moment already complete, exactly as it is? - I feel it already complete when there is no expectations.

Are shame and guilt personal possessions, or are they just thoughts, feelings, and sensations appearing in the present moment? - They must just be thoughts in the present moment, I cannot draw them or physically show them to you or myself, but I can try and explain what I think I feel like.

Right now—don’t analyze, just **look:**
- Is there an actual entity here who *owns* shame, or is there just the raw sensation of contraction, heaviness, maybe tension? - No, no one "owns" this I would say but I am somehow connected to it by this heaviness that I connect with it.
- When guilt arises, does it have your name on it, or is it just another movement of energy appearing and dissolving? I feel affiliated to the guilt but not by my name, it stems I think from the moving energy that keeps changing all the time.

Notice that it’s only when the mind says "**this is mine**" or "**this is about me**" that the suffering intensifies.

Right now, if you don’t attach any story—
**Can you find someone who actually needs to carry shame or guilt?** - Not at all

Or are these simply waves passing through a space that you truly are? - Yes, I see them as passing waves. Some I wait out, some I can only ride out, some I "see" then they lose power

Exactly. **You’ve pinpointed the mechanism.**

Notice clearly what you said: "*The story gives me permission to feel melancholy.*"
Look at this carefully, right now, as it’s happening:

- **Does melancholy need a story to exist?** - Yes it does. With no story it would just be nothing and not relevant.
- **Does the story actually justify or amplify the feeling?** - As I give it a negative, it amplifies the feeling so it seems justified.
- **Who exactly is being given permission?** - Some obscure idea of my percieved identity.

Without the supporting story, without the "evidence"—is melancholy still melancholy, or just a neutral sensation, floating freely? - It is or becomes just a neutral sensation if it has no "ownership".

Right now, look closely:

**Can you find the exact moment when melancholy becomes "yours"?** - Not really. But I would just wake up in the morning then it's there and I try to figure out what manifested it. I see that I should just see it as passing through. Thing is that sometimes it lingers for way too long (days) and that is what gets me, I want it away = more suffering.
Or is ownership of the feeling just another subtle thought, quietly attaching itself to sensation? - It definitely is! This morning a had a random thought when I felt kind of a similar sensation walking down a hill in France anout 30 years ago. I see the insanity of this:)

What happens if you don’t take the bait? - Nothing, it cancels itself out.

Perfectly seen!

Notice how clearly you've described it:

The mind says, "*I want to find purpose, passion, connection—then I'll be complete.*" But see right now—this very thought creates a feeling of incompleteness, of something missing.

**Check immediately:**

- **Does the desire for purpose, passion, or connection indicate something actually missing right now?** - It sure "feels" like it sometimes yes, but I need to put a some mechanisms in place to realise nothing is missing right now. I see what the mind is doing.
- **Is fulfillment truly found "out there" in an event, or is it another mental story postponing peace?** - No, my heart says fulfillment is not "out there" and will never be no matter what I do or chase. I see how this story is postponing peace, now.

Without following the thought about what might make things better in the future:

**Is anything actually wrong or incomplete right now, exactly as it is?** - Like exactly right now at this moment I feel intensely fatigued and a bit irritated due to a chain of events/thoughts: Had a less than average meditation session last night, didnt sleep well, woke up groggy... But without those stories and current emotions felt, nothing would be wrong or incomplete. Update: Now a day later I see that without really trying hard or doing something, things have changed dramatically in just 24 hours, nothing is "critically" wrong like I percieved it yesterday.

Look directly. No future. No past. **Just this.**

What's left? - Me just being right here, breathing and witnessing.


[quote=vinceschubert]
Yes. Exactly this.

Thunder. Birds chirping. Rain.
Clearer and peaceful, without anyone needing protection.

See how effortlessly peace appears when there's no identity to defend, no narrative to uphold. - Yes, crytsal clear.

Right now:

Does anything need to be added to this peace? - No
Can it be improved? - No. I see when I try to improve it, I create suffering and confusion. It's just easier or more natural to accept it.

Or is it simply this—complete, exactly as it is? - Yes, complete as is.

Rest here. This is home. - Aka Loving awareness, beingness and "now"? I see this as the same space a tree or a rock would "reside" in with no spicing up extra ideas/thoughts to make it more than it actually is.