Integration and insight

[bastian]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
After learning and practicing for many years in Buddhist and other traditions I recently (March 2024) had a strong, persistent insight into there not being any real or inherent self. I would like to connect with someone else who has had this experience to help me fully understand and deepen this insight.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to connect with someone who can help guide me with the integration of the insight into non-self into my being and life. In my life I have almost entirely practiced alone, guided by books, and I think connecting with someone else who is on the same journey / has the insight into non-self would be very beneficial and perhaps healing and integrative for me. I am looking for a group of like-minded and kind, spiritual people I can connect with, be supported by, and support others.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like to discuss my experiences and would very much appreciate any pointers or guides to assist with the integration of the profound insight of non-self into everyday life. While I have had quite an 'intellectual awakening' I feel as though the rest of my being (heart, core etc) is still catching up.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been a spiritual 'seeker' since as early as I can remember in my life as a child. Eventually I came to Buddhism, through a wide variety of traditions, and have meditated, learnt and practiced for all of my life. I had my first awakening at around 19 years of age, and most recently (age 46) have had a profound insight into the reality of non-self. I have always practiced alone, and would like to connect with others on the same journey and who have had similar experiences.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Maylson]

Hey Bastian, how's it going?

I'm May, and I will be your "guide." Here at LU, we don't have anything to teach you. Instead, we will investigate this idea of a "SELF" together.

First, Id like to ask:

What is this "I" that you call Bastian?

How do you identify your"self"?

...and most recently (at age 46) I had a profound insight into the reality of non-self.

Interesting! Please share that story.

May.

[bastian]

I'm May, and I will be your "guide." Here at LU, we don't have anything to teach you. Instead, we will investigate this idea of a "SELF" together.

Hi May - firstly, thank you so much for being interested and kind and willing to guide me with this experience. I really appreciate your time, effort and insight.

What is this "I" that you call Bastian?

I’m not quite sure how to describe this in words. Until recently I would have given a personal narrative such as that I live in Australia, I’m in my mid forties, have a family (wife and daughter) and work a busy job.

For as long as I can remember I’ve had an absolutely burning need to understand the ‘truth’ of existence, the ‘meaning of life’ I suppose, and this has driven me on a spiritual ‘quest’ seeking these answers. This has occurred for the most part in a personal, private way as my life unfolded (grew up, marriage, work etc). So I’ve had a bit of a dual identity - ‘normal’ person who lives in society, and quietly an intensely spiritual and introspective “truth seeker”. It’s been an odd experience sometimes trying to build a personal identity to live in society at the same time as trying to deconstruct it.

But now, when I think deeply about that question to answer from a ‘universal truth’ perspective, I honestly don’t know how to answer it in words any more. Whatever description or concepts I gave would be, at their core, incorrect because they would be attempting to describe a constantly changing swirl of formations that has shreds of old personal narrative woven through them.

How do you identify your"self"?

Since my experience I will describe below, when I concentrate my mind in meditation and then turn it to look into wherever I think a self exists the answer always arises ‘there is nothing’.

When I am caught up in the hustle and bustle of daily life, I find that my body and mind are acting out old memories and patterns in their interactions with people that are consistent with the personal narratives of a ‘self’. So if I am speaking to someone I would identify my ‘self’ in those old ways verbally and through actions connected with a personal narrative (name, where I grew up etc)

However, if you are asking me in an ‘ultimate’ self about how I identify my ‘self’ and I really turn my mind to answering this, then I just have the experience of present moment awareness of the senses (like I am just aware of the visual patterns the eyes see, or the sounds the ears hear) and then the knowledge that there isn’t anything else here.

If I try to think about “my” own death, I think of it as just the senses shutting down with the body and this “awareness” that is experienced no longer existing after that. There would not be anything left following this process (a soul or anything else like that).

...and most recently (at age 46) I had a profound insight into the reality of non-self.
Interesting! Please share that story.

I have learnt and practiced in the way of Theravada Buddhism, but here I will try to keep away from using those words and teachings and focus on my direct experience, but I may need to refer to some of that to explain.

The experience happened one afternoon at home when I was sitting quietly on my own and I had been meditating and quietly considering things so my mind was quite centred and peaceful. I had been reading a teaching by the Buddha which said that a ‘person’ was a mere concept, and described a ‘person’ as consisting of six elements. One of these elements being ‘earth’ or ‘solidity’. So that the components of the body that are solid (e.g. bones) are simply internal earth element, and something like a wall or a table is simply external earth element, so that taken together these are simply the same thing (not ‘internal’ or ‘external’ but one single thing).

Well, I looked down at this glass and wood coffee table in front of me and then very clearly had the thought “there is no difference between this ‘coffee table’ and ‘me’” like, there is no person here, just earth element (and the other elements).

I specifically had a very clear insight and understanding that there was no “residual” left, like there wasn’t an extra ‘self’ part of ‘me’ that was extra to what the coffee table had - we were both exactly just objects with no residual ‘self’ or ‘watcher’ or ‘thinker’ or ‘soul’ or anything else that could be used to point to a ‘self’.

I had this thought then that this was the end of my search, because there just wasn’t anything else to find - no residual elements or objects. There just really is nothing, all the way down - no self. The feeling was peaceful and profound.

This insight of ‘no-self’ stayed with me permanently and strongly for about two weeks. I went about my daily life (family, work etc) and the lived experience of that was just completely different to anything that had come before. It’s hard to put into words but I had no sense of a person being present where my body was. My body and mind just moved and acted in an appropriate way in each moment, but there wasn’t any thoughts about a “me” directing it to move or think, it just happened. I had no thoughts in between the moments when thought was functionally needed. There were no self-referential thoughts at all. Sometimes my body got hungry and “I” ate, sometimes tired and “I” slept, but definitely no sense of ‘self’ there at all.

Emotionally the experience felt like a continuous upwelling of love, joy and compassion for everything that existed (but focused on what was directly around me). There was no stress at all - like at work where it would usually be a stressful environment with some people that can be difficult to deal with, that all went away completely and I just brought love and peace into each moment I experienced. I have no idea how this must have appeared to the people around me. While from my perspective a huge transformation had occurred, I don’t think it was obvious to anyone around me (or perhaps they just thought I was having a good day).

After about two weeks, a huge complicated project was given to us at work and I remember there was a thought that maybe I couldn’t just continue to be in this sort of ‘choiceness love awareness’ and also meet those responsibilities at work. Then more thoughts came that perhaps I would fail at my work, get fired from my job, let my family down and so on. Then there was a night I barely slept, shivering and sweating with stress all night with an intense fear of failing at these worldly concerns. I felt panic and fear in my abdomen.

The next day I felt the intense sensation of fear and terror continue and it never really left. It’s still here, six months later, connected with work and the fear of failing my family. It arises daily, along with thoughts like “I’m broken” or “my nervous system is fried”, and some pretty negative thoughts about failure and stress (connected with this important work project).

The love and unity I felt went away and hasn’t returned, and meditation isn’t coming easily to me any more. I feel lost again.

Any yet, when I quietly ask the question “what is there?” “what am I?” the answer is always crystal clear - “there is nothing”, the understanding of no-self has never left me. But in my daily life experience there is so much fear and anxiety arising in my body. I am not sure why (it’s often not connected with specific events).

So at the moment, I feel like I am in this limbo where I have seen this way of existing which is pure, and truthful and full of love, but that was six months ago and is now more a memory than a present experience. My experience each day is fear and anxiety arising powerfully in my body, and a sense of frustration in my mind because I want it to go away. I am clearly back in the ‘self’ somehow, but I don’t really understand how to move past this or why this has happened.

I feel stuck between two worlds where I have enough self left to ’suffer’, but not enough self left for it to be obvious to me what the next step on this journey is or how to take it.

I would really appreciate your guidance.

Thank you so much for listening to my story.

Bastian.

[Maylson]

Hey, Bastian, how are you?

Sorry for the late response, a big wave of work came up this weekend, but here we are now.

Thank you for sharing your story and insights. That was kinda deep, wasn’t it?

“After about two weeks, a huge complicated project was given to us at work and I remember there was a thought that maybe I couldn’t just continue to be in this sort of ‘choiceness love awareness’ and also meet those responsibilities at work. Then more thoughts came that perhaps I would fail at my work, get fired from my job, let my family down and so on. Then there was a night I barely slept, shivering and sweating with stress all night with na intense fear of failing at these worldly concerns. I felt panic and fear in my abdomen.”

It seems there is an identification with thoughts, and this belief reinforces the idea that "someone" is suffering, even when intellectually knowing that the Self is an illusion. When we focus our attention on thoughts, they can multiply and create numerous narratives, much like a voice that narrates the life of the character.
How is your relationship with your thoughts?
Did you notice anything different about them after the insight you mentioned?

“The next day I felt the intense sensation of fear and terror continue and it never really left. It’s still here, six months later, connected with work and the fear of failing my family. It arises daily, along with thoughts like “I’m broken” or “my nervous system is fried”, and some pretty negative thoughts about failure and stress (connected with this important work project).”

Sensations are great pointers. I really recommend sitting with them and observing them in your direct experience.

Are the sensations connected to your thoughts, or are you adding some kind of narrative to them?
Without going to the past or future, what are the sensations you’re experiencing right now? What do they feel like in this very moment?


May.