LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand everything I experience is only thought, nothing tangible and real. And things I see are transmitted through my mind but aren’t actually things and things are only separate because of space which don’t exist, which means I can’t exist. But still all I see are things and where space would be if it existed and colors if they existed.
What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for the relief of being able to stop looking for something g because I’ll know it can’t actually be found and that I do t need to be anything because I do t exist and I can finally just experience.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I think something to keep me on track and focused and out of my continuous and constant thoughts and busy-ness and wasting time on things that don’t matter because I will feel more than just know that time itself isn’t any more real than space or the things I’m wasting it on.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am Latter-Day-Saint. Probably why I felt that I was doing something wrong just by even being here several months ago. But I’ve learned since that my beliefs correlate in a surprising way, and things that upset me involving my religion were more about humans being humans and that this has nothing (but yet everything) to do with truth. Also, I realize that reading the things I’m writing would have (and did) just irritate the heck out of me, as O would have seen it all as a bunch pretentious nonsense. The employers new clothes kind of thing, now I see it is this but a reverse of what I thought.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9
...But I’m not yes awake
Re: ...But I’m not yet awake
I don't know what my reason for 9 was. I'd say 10 now for sure. I'm new to most things related to this (different teachings etc) now know that I am not my thoughts, I am not the voice in my head (I decided it's like having my own little AI chat bot except it's a lot More negatives and tells a lot more lies. But I don't totally understand what is meant exactly by 'self' which makes me unsure what not-self refers to. The last week or so has been much longer,, I've had some weird experiences and a few times, I'd go from feeling like I was just on the verge of knowing .... something's, only to having my mind just go.completely blank and not know what I had just been thinking. though I couldn't find any feelings of fear or discomfort or anxiety, it Was like zo.etbing was just gone. And then I couldn't even begin to fathom any separating between my body and myself. Also when I was trying to figure out what was it my mind was trying to keep me from, and its like there was a wall to keep .me from noticing anything I *shouldn't"". But it was like it was so badly. Instructed it was like once I knew enough to look, whatever it was (my mind?) figured it didn't matter f that point. And there was nothing behind the wall..Actually whatever explanation I figured out made more sense at the time, I can't quite remember it now. I have read and listened to Michael Singer more than anyone else, ,something about him resonated with me, I've read from others and learned a lot, But there were small things that I was less sure about. I mostly started looking into this after wondering what exactly is meant by mindfulness, I had a basic idea but it's just everywhere. I think I finally at least more fully get it, what the point is. And I have not done enough with it, but will start. I just wanted a solid understanding about why and I have to know beyond surface explanations. Eckhart Tolle (not sure if I spelled his name right) really helped with that part. Some other things I'm not totally sure about. I'd had some thoughts about things I'd been taught at church conflicting but I've been surprised at how much it seems to supports it all, and anything I'd been at all worried about ended up completely based on things I'd made up in my head. Or my mind just told me those things I guess. Anyway ok I guess that's enough, and I'm fully ready, or actually I already have taken sure of any doubts would get in the way. And once I start with someone, I won't look at any other teachings during that time.
Re: ...But I’m not yes awake
Hi Tleela31, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU :). Let me know your name if you'd like me to call you that
Try this:
Ask yourself: "What's here that's not a thought?" If you have doubts about whether you're doing it correctly, note that these doubts are thoughts and return to the question. If you notice that there's silence after the question, note that the noticing of the fact of silence is a thought and return to the question. If you get frustrated, note that you're believing a thought like "this isn't working" or something similar and return to the question. Let me know how that works out for ya
Me too. So who are you then? What do you take yourself to be? When you say the word "I", what does that refer to?But I don't totally understand what is meant exactly by 'self' which makes me unsure what not-self refers to.
Try this:
Ask yourself: "What's here that's not a thought?" If you have doubts about whether you're doing it correctly, note that these doubts are thoughts and return to the question. If you notice that there's silence after the question, note that the noticing of the fact of silence is a thought and return to the question. If you get frustrated, note that you're believing a thought like "this isn't working" or something similar and return to the question. Let me know how that works out for ya
Re: ...But I’m not yet awake
Hi, I’m Amy. I thought about this, and there is nothing there that isn’t thought. Except maybe o ne thing but I have no words for it and if I did it’s more thoughts. I feel like the only thing I could possibly be is that I’m energy that communicates through energy that’s connected to everything else. And watches. And this watcher communicates by being translated by the mind and the body. Whose like my little AI chatbot who, very very rarely picks up some influence fromfrom this energy and translate it to thoughts but then 99.999% of the time just shoves out a bunch of nonsense from its stores of information dumps. But then why dont I just know this? And how can that be me if all? I know are these thoughts. But I also know I’m not my thoughts. Actually the first thing that crossed my mind is that wait, I’m asking my mind who I am. This can’t work. Amd then my phone died and everything was erased. And that’s when I felt like there was a watcher, Because I feel it. I don’t usually. But. I dont know that this is direct experience. I used to think I was my mind and had a ‘devils advocate that was also part of my mind, and why I argued with myself all the time. And I guess the ‘watcher, it could be just old beliefs, but I hadn’t really thought of anything like that in that way before I do t think. But maybe it’s just because I have to be somebody. I just feel like a…can there even be an invisible glow? Something like that around me.
Re: ...But I’m not yes awake
Hi Amy, when you say you feel like you're "energy" or the "watcher", what are these things in your direct experience? How do you actually experience "energy" or the watcher, are these actual things in your experience? Could these things exist without your imagination of them?
Also, what do you mean there's nothing that isn't thought? What about sights, sounds, sensations, etc.?
It's important here to distinguish between the content of thought and what's actually here. For example, in direct experience, is there:
1) What you're going to eat later
OR
2) A thought about what you're going to eat later
Which one is present in your direct experience?
Go back to the "What's not a thought?" practice, and this time, don't think about it. Just ask the question. If you're thinking about the question, it's already thought, but we're asking what's not a thought
Also, what do you mean there's nothing that isn't thought? What about sights, sounds, sensations, etc.?
It's important here to distinguish between the content of thought and what's actually here. For example, in direct experience, is there:
1) What you're going to eat later
OR
2) A thought about what you're going to eat later
Which one is present in your direct experience?
Go back to the "What's not a thought?" practice, and this time, don't think about it. Just ask the question. If you're thinking about the question, it's already thought, but we're asking what's not a thought
Re: ...But I’m not yes awake
I don’t know. Probably not but I just don’t know.Hi Amy, when you say you feel like you're "energy" or the "watcher", what are these things in your direct experience? How do you actually experience "energy" or the watcher, are these actual things in your experience? Could these things exist without your imagination of them?
This, I apologize, I realized I was answering something that you hadn’t actually asked here, I kind of combined a couple of things you wrote without realizing (so using quotes to make sure I stay on track)Also, what do you mean there's nothing that isn't thought? What about sights, sounds, sensations, etc.?
I hear sound, I feel pressure, I feel a fuzzy, buzzing sensation everywhere. I see stuff on a table. (First I had more detail but that made it seem more like a thought, like specifically what I heard and saw, and like the fuzziness which I started thinking was what I wanted to call energy but then I decided it’s probably neuropathy lol or this ‘glow’ probably double vision.)Go back to the "What's not a thought?" practice, and this time, don't think about it. Just ask the question. If you're thinking about the question, it's already thought, but we're asking what's not a thought
Re: ...But I’m not yes awake
I'd like you to look into the "watcher" more. What is this actually in your experience?
Re: ...But I’m not yes awake
I wrote several paragraphs to answer this yesterday (and now appears I've done so again, though I'm not quite as frustrated with myself as I was yesterday, as I just ended up deleting it, I can't even remember why now, I think just too much analyzing everything, and kind of coming to conclusions as I went, Then wanting to just delete everything but the conclusions but then it made no sense without context. I have a really hard time, it seems, interpreting what people are asking of me in general, as I often find out that what I do is completely different than what they had in mind. I overthink the wrong things or make assumptions without realizing I'm doing so until I look back to figure out why I came to the conclusion I did, when they tell me it was wrong. And it usually even seems to me that what they had in mind should have been very obvious based on what they said to me, Though it may take some time, I can usually see what lead to my conclusion, and where I got off-track, and it's just so frustrating. I'm trying to remember why I even started talking about this...lol oh, because now I'm not entirely sure what I''m being asked here, as far as 'my experience'. (ADHD and atustic tendencies, which I have my own little theories about, something about what happens sometimes when the mind and 'higher' consciousness try to combine...and probably a bunch of crap.)
As far as direct experience...I'd say I do have direct experience with the watcher which I''m starting to feel silly about naming it, anyway but when I think about it, none of the five senses really apply, but I can't quite put it to just thoughts and imagination either. They are things I know, or know happened, beyond just a belief. I've actually recently had a realization that many of my 'beliefs' were based on absolutely nothing, and I realized I'd just kind of made some things up without realizing it. These are different. These I know occurred and are beyond imagination or psychological whatever, though I likely would think differently if it were someone else saying it.
2 experiences I can think of are when my father died and I knew he was still there, while I was in his house just shortly afterwards. I could not see him, hear him, touch him, smell or taste, but I knew he was there, I guess I could say that I could feel him but not in the sense of physical touch. If or when I hear people say things like this, Im likely to think it's just corny or they don't mean it literally, but I do. I can't say it was just my imagination or thought because I know he was there. Two days later I went back to his house, and he was not there. The closest I could describe it, besides cold, but not a temperature cold, is it was like he left some kind of vaccuum, and/or something else was there, I don't know, I wouldn't really think I'd believe in anything that I can think of that might apply as being 'something else', or even know what I mean by that, I just knew I wanted to get out of there as soon as I could. I'd likely come up with all kind of psychological reasons why someone would feel this way if it were something I was hearing from someone else, but I just know it was as I said. And it was 'the watcher' that experienced this,
I also had my baby girl get hurt very badly and they actually lost her for a few seconds at least in the ambulance. I couldn't go with them, as I had other kids at home and no one to watch them when they had to leave. I realized I had stayed fairly calm during this, probably some kind of shock. But at some point between then and later getting things together, going to the hospital, joining them on a flight for life flight, I remember feeling something beyond just mild shock, this intense calmness, glowing, the same sort of feeling as when I knew my father was in the house still, and at the time I kept thinking in the back of my mind, 'what is wrong with me?' why aren't I completely losing it?' And later I realized what this was, though I didn't really have a word for it then. I just knew everything was going to be fine. And it was. I had no reason to think that anything would be fine, and again I'd explain it away if it happened to anyone else. The watcher is in these events, it is what connected to that...whatever it was that caused that feeling.
Another time was a church youth something or other, for several days, we had this meeting near the end, a bunch of teenagers, of all types, we were in a meeting where everyone just got up and talked, voluntarily, about what they'd experienced. At one point I'd realized we'd been in there for over 5 hours. A bunch of teenagers, and this same feeling. This is how I've experienced it. And it was real, direct experience but not, I dont' know how else to say it, and I don't know if this is what you are asking about really. Thanks
As far as direct experience...I'd say I do have direct experience with the watcher which I''m starting to feel silly about naming it, anyway but when I think about it, none of the five senses really apply, but I can't quite put it to just thoughts and imagination either. They are things I know, or know happened, beyond just a belief. I've actually recently had a realization that many of my 'beliefs' were based on absolutely nothing, and I realized I'd just kind of made some things up without realizing it. These are different. These I know occurred and are beyond imagination or psychological whatever, though I likely would think differently if it were someone else saying it.
2 experiences I can think of are when my father died and I knew he was still there, while I was in his house just shortly afterwards. I could not see him, hear him, touch him, smell or taste, but I knew he was there, I guess I could say that I could feel him but not in the sense of physical touch. If or when I hear people say things like this, Im likely to think it's just corny or they don't mean it literally, but I do. I can't say it was just my imagination or thought because I know he was there. Two days later I went back to his house, and he was not there. The closest I could describe it, besides cold, but not a temperature cold, is it was like he left some kind of vaccuum, and/or something else was there, I don't know, I wouldn't really think I'd believe in anything that I can think of that might apply as being 'something else', or even know what I mean by that, I just knew I wanted to get out of there as soon as I could. I'd likely come up with all kind of psychological reasons why someone would feel this way if it were something I was hearing from someone else, but I just know it was as I said. And it was 'the watcher' that experienced this,
I also had my baby girl get hurt very badly and they actually lost her for a few seconds at least in the ambulance. I couldn't go with them, as I had other kids at home and no one to watch them when they had to leave. I realized I had stayed fairly calm during this, probably some kind of shock. But at some point between then and later getting things together, going to the hospital, joining them on a flight for life flight, I remember feeling something beyond just mild shock, this intense calmness, glowing, the same sort of feeling as when I knew my father was in the house still, and at the time I kept thinking in the back of my mind, 'what is wrong with me?' why aren't I completely losing it?' And later I realized what this was, though I didn't really have a word for it then. I just knew everything was going to be fine. And it was. I had no reason to think that anything would be fine, and again I'd explain it away if it happened to anyone else. The watcher is in these events, it is what connected to that...whatever it was that caused that feeling.
Another time was a church youth something or other, for several days, we had this meeting near the end, a bunch of teenagers, of all types, we were in a meeting where everyone just got up and talked, voluntarily, about what they'd experienced. At one point I'd realized we'd been in there for over 5 hours. A bunch of teenagers, and this same feeling. This is how I've experienced it. And it was real, direct experience but not, I dont' know how else to say it, and I don't know if this is what you are asking about really. Thanks
Re: ...But I’m not yes awake
Heya Amy, that wasn't really what I was asking, but it was interesting to read about your experiences anyway hahah. While doing this investigation, it's important to look in your direct experience, as in, what's here. So when I ask you a question, I'm usually not asking you for an answer you can think of by referring to memories (thoughts) or imagination (thoughts). I'm asking you to LOOK at what's here, and communicate to me the answer from your direct experience. Questions...
Is it possible to "know" anything? Is there such a thing as "knowing"? Can anything be known, or can there just be a thought saying that something is known? As in, is there such a thing as "knowing something beyond just a belief", or is there a thought that says "I know this beyond just a belief"?
What does being certain mean? Does it not just mean believing in something 100%? If 2 people were certain about 2 completely opposing views... is there any objective truth behind any certainty?
What is the watcher? Is there a watcher, or watching, in your experience now? Let's single it down to a single sense so it's easier to look at. Listen to a sound. Apart from the sound, do you find anything in your experience called "hearing"? Do you find anything called a "hearer" that is hearing the sound?
Is it possible to "know" anything? Is there such a thing as "knowing"? Can anything be known, or can there just be a thought saying that something is known? As in, is there such a thing as "knowing something beyond just a belief", or is there a thought that says "I know this beyond just a belief"?
Is there not just a thought occurring that says "These are different"? Is the thought "this is beyond imagination" not imagined?These are different. These I know occurred and are beyond imagination or psychological whatever
What does being certain mean? Does it not just mean believing in something 100%? If 2 people were certain about 2 completely opposing views... is there any objective truth behind any certainty?
What is the watcher? Is there a watcher, or watching, in your experience now? Let's single it down to a single sense so it's easier to look at. Listen to a sound. Apart from the sound, do you find anything in your experience called "hearing"? Do you find anything called a "hearer" that is hearing the sound?
Re: ...But I’m not yes awake
Ok, thanks for your patience, this falls under what I was talking about, this now seems very obvious. I knew this is about direct experience so I don't know why I lost the thread there. Something about being too literal or I don't know, anyway, I will try this again in the morning.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Re: ...But I’m not yes awake
It took me some time but I think things are finally clicking back into place a bit better, as far as things I knew I’d been able to see more clearly just a few days ago.
A hearer or hearing: I do think things are being heard or perceived. Perceiving is occurring. But I don’t know about hearing. I feel like I become aware of the things that are being heard. Or actually I guess I just know sound is being perceived…ok actually that’s saying the same thing. But I don’t find a hearer or hearing either.
I understand what you are saying about the things I ‘know’, and that without seeing or hearing those things or otherwise directly experiencing them in anyway that I can point to and direct someone else to experience it, so that if someone else says they ‘know’ otherwise, it isn’t more than a thought. As no matter how sure I am, there is no direct experience with those things. And imagining it is really the only way of currently experiencing it. But also, to answer another question, knowing isn’t really anything more than believing something is true no matter how it’s being experienced anyway.
As far as looking for a ‘watcher’ or “experiencer” is probably closer to what I’m referring to, thiss is not something I can find.
Thanks
A hearer or hearing: I do think things are being heard or perceived. Perceiving is occurring. But I don’t know about hearing. I feel like I become aware of the things that are being heard. Or actually I guess I just know sound is being perceived…ok actually that’s saying the same thing. But I don’t find a hearer or hearing either.
I understand what you are saying about the things I ‘know’, and that without seeing or hearing those things or otherwise directly experiencing them in anyway that I can point to and direct someone else to experience it, so that if someone else says they ‘know’ otherwise, it isn’t more than a thought. As no matter how sure I am, there is no direct experience with those things. And imagining it is really the only way of currently experiencing it. But also, to answer another question, knowing isn’t really anything more than believing something is true no matter how it’s being experienced anyway.
As far as looking for a ‘watcher’ or “experiencer” is probably closer to what I’m referring to, thiss is not something I can find.
Thanks
Re: ...But I’m not yes awake
Let's look at perceiving then. What is "perceiving" within your experience?
Please continue with the "What's not a thought?" practice.
When you say "feel like", do you mean you think? What does "you becoming aware of sounds" refer to in your experience?I feel like I become aware of the things that are being heard.
Please continue with the "What's not a thought?" practice.
Re: ...But I’m not yes awake
Yes I mean that is what I think.Let's look at perceiving then. What is "perceiving" within your experience?
I become aware of sounds, sights, whatever, and then my mind gives meaning to them, interprets them, which usually feels like one step. Like if I see something that looks like a tree I automatically think tree. If it’s not something I immediately recognize or like with sound, if I hear sound, I’m aware of sound. And then if my mind can give any more meaning to it, such as whether it’s a specific song or words in English that I know I’ll know the meaning, or the name of the song or whatever.When you say "feel like", do you mean you think? What does "you becoming aware of sounds" refer to in your experience?
Ok, 🫢 this seems be where my over-thinking or taking things too literally comes in. …I’m going to write what my mind is telling me I’m seeing, hearing, etc without any further thoughts about it, as now this seems likely to be what you intended. (I just deleted a very large paragraph showing what it took to get to that realization, which is hopefully correct. No wonder everything takes me so long to do…holy cow.)Please continue with the "What's not a thought?" practice.
I hear wind through trees and through my window. I feel a cool breeze across my arms. I hear a thump as something is blown off of my window sill and falls onto the floor. I feel my stomach rumbling and hear it making noises.i see a bottle of bug spray. I see my window of vision get smaller as my eyelids want to close. Then I see the light shining through the back of my eyelids. And then I see a black lamp with three twisty extended parts with bulbs and a shade on top. And hear more stomach rumbling.
Re: ...But I’m not yes awake
What is perceiving?
I know what you're talking about when you say sounds, sights, etc.. But what do you mean by the words "I become aware of them"? Do you become aware of them? What is "becoming aware" in your experience?I become aware of sounds, sights, whatever, and then my mind gives meaning to them
All the things you wrote are labels for experience, thoughts. As soon as a label pops up, note that it is a thought and return to the question "What's not a thought?"I’m going to write what my mind is telling me I’m seeing, hearing, etc without any further thoughts about it, as now this seems likely to be what you intended.
Re: ...But I’m not yet awake
To know they exist? I know things have to be interpreted through my brain...I just know things are being heard, I'm understanding things. I don't know if I'm hearing them.know what you're talking about when you say sounds, sights, etc.. But what do you mean by the words "I become aware of them"? Do you become aware of them? What is "becoming aware" in your experience?
That's what I was trying to figure out that I deleted. I didn't understand how I can share anything without turning it into thoughts. I was trying to share as I experienced, that before sharing I didn't think I was experiencing as thoughts, but maybe I was.All the things you wrote are labels for experience, thoughts. As soon as a label pops up, note that it is a thought and return to the question "What's not a thought?"