what knows this?

[marcu5]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I've spent some years studying Buddhist teachings, so I have an intellectual understanding of no-self, but of course this is ... just intellectual. I can parrot back the philosophy, but I'd prefer to say that I'm ignorant, as that is closer to the truth. When I do inquiry and ask questions like "Who knows this?" I can't seem to find a center.

What are you looking for at LU?
Every since I was a child, I knew there was a deeper truth than I seem to have access to, a deeper truth to what I am, and what "this" is. At 58, I still know that. I also doubt it. I swing between doubt and a sense of knowing. And I can feel the resistance to this truth. I supposed I am the resistance, but it doesn't feel like that. It feels like I'm locked in the basement. I know there's a whole house, a whole world, above me. Why can't I find the stairs?

What I really want to know is "what am I?" I feel so close to knowing, like it's on the other side of the door. This is very hard to put into words, but I feel stuck, stuck, stuck--but with an inkling of what's beyond stuck. It's like being in a prison cell with a high up window through which I can see just a sliver of the moon. Or maybe the faint glow from it. So I guess what I want is to see the whole moon and know that I am the moon. I feel like I'm writing bad poetry, but it's hard for me to find better words.

When I study Buddhist and other non-dual teachings, I feel a sense of "this is the truth" that I don't feel from anything else. But it also feels closed off to me. Or I am closing myself off to it. What I'm looking for at LU is a way to open up to it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have been doing this by myself. I don't have any friends on this path. I don't personally know anyone who has walked it. I need someone to help me have some sense if I'm headed in the right direction. I need someone to challenge me.

I watch videos of people like Angelo Dillulo, and a sentence from him, sometimes a word, can open something up for me. I need that kind of person-to-person contact. I need someone who is not me to help me out of my patterns.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I grew up in a non-religious, Jewish family. We had no spiritual traditions or rituals, not even ones we celebrated in a secular way. Spirituality in my family was based in art. For me, both making and viewing (or listening to) art is a deeply spiritual experience. In my 50s, I started diving into Buddhism and I sometimes call myself a Buddhist now.

I have been meditating daily for about eight years, but I've only been doing it seriously for a year. For most of that time, I was doing mindfulness mediation with various popular apps as guides, just ten minutes a day. I am not much more committed to practice. I meditate about two hours a day now, doing a bunch of different practices. A little bit of mindfulness, two sessions of transcendental meditation (really NSR, which is a sort of alt-TM not connected to the TM Foundation), an hour of inquiry during my morning walk, and a half hour of just sitting.

I know everyone says this, but my big challenge during meditation is concentration. I daydream super easily. It's not uncommon for me to start meditating and only realize I've been daydreaming for the whole session when the timer goes off. This has improved a bit lately.

The main inquiry I do is "What knows this?" I am puzzled as to the answer I seem to get from ... wherever answers come from. I can't find an center, and "I," but I still seem to be stuck in some vaguely self-like state.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Hi Marcus (correct me if that's not your name), I'm Tyler and welcome to LU :).

What more is "I" or "me" than a figure of speech? How is that word different from the sound of a dog barking?

I can't tell you what the truth is. Buddhism is not the truth, LU is not the truth, and truth is not the truth. How is the word "truth" different from the sound of a dog barking? Actually, I can tell you what the truth is. The truth is an ice cream sandwich. There you go.

It sounds like you're buying into the narrative that there's something to get/know, and you gotta go get that, but you can't get it. It's important to distinguish between direct experience and the content of thought.
For example, which of these following statements describes your experience more accurately?
1) I'm so close to knowing
OR
2) There is a thought that says I'm so close to knowing
Which one of these is verifiable in your experience?
Another one:
1) There's a truth that I haven't found
OR
2) There is a thought that says there's a truth that I haven't found


Try this:
Meditate and drop in the question "What's here that's not a thought?" If you have doubts about whether you're doing it correctly, note that these doubts are thoughts and return to the question. If you notice that there's silence after the question, note that the noticing of the fact of silence is a thought and return to the question. If you get frustrated, note that you're believing a thought like "this isn't working" or something similar and return to the question. Let me know how that works out for ya

[marcu5]

Hi Tyler! Thank you for your welcome. It's great to have your help.

This was extremely helpful:

"1) I'm so close to knowing
OR
2) There is a thought that says I'm so close to knowing
Which one of these is verifiable in your experience?
Another one:
1) There's a truth that I haven't found
OR
2) There is a thought that says there's a truth that I haven't found"

Yes, the answer is 2 and 2. Those are both thoughts.

What you suggested I do while meditating was also helpful, and *this* was the most helpful pointer of all: "If you notice that there's silence after the question, note that the noticing of the fact of silence is a thought and return to the question." Helpful and frustrating. With "frustrating" being another thought.

Today, while meditating with "What's not a thought?" I "saw" that there's such a huge tangle of thoughts. With "tangle of thoughts" being another thought. Layers of thought. Thoughts about thoughts about thoughts.

There's this other "stuff" that is not thought. It feels like ... My therapist would call it the felt sense. Then there's a layer of thought closely connected to it, interpreting it. "This is a feeling in my chest ... This is what's happening in my body ... This is the felt sense ... This is not thought." All thought. But beneath all that thought, or next to it, or ... there with it is experience. Experiencing.

[marcu5]

(Yes, it's Marcus.)

[ty0]

Sounds like the practice is working well for you. It's quite potent for many people. I think it would be best to focus on this before giving you too much to digest. Stick with it for a while and write to me when you have any updates and/or questions :)

[marcu5]

You're right! It's very potent.

I just got back from my morning walking meditation (I do a walking meditation and a sitting meditation every day), and I spent the whole time on "What's not a thought?" What I learned was that there's this whole layer of thoughts I hadn't recognized as thoughts.

These are like word or faintly visual or conceptual labels for sensations. I can pretty quickly "go to" sensation. I'll experience the tactile feel of my feet hitting the ground with each step, or hear the sound of a dog barking. But there's this "labeling layer" of thought that seems to be glued to experiencing those sensations. I don't just hear a sound, I think "dog." I don't just feel impact, I think impact. Or I think foot, foot, foot, foot. Or have an image thought of my feet.

My discernment is not well trained enough to clearly distinguish the label from the sensation. I can do it to some extent, but I get confused. When they come up, I tell myself "I'm confused" and "I'm frustrated" are thoughts. These labeling thoughts are incredibly sticky.

I will keep doing this work.

[ty0]

There's a story here that you have to fully separate thought from other experience or get rid of thought as a whole. Why have you created a goal when the practice instructions didn't specify one? You already notice this labelling, and the instructions stop there. Isn't the confusion and frustration born out of your own imagination of a further goal? Why go further? What are you trying to achieve? I'm not saying the ability/habit of discrimination is not useful, it's very beneficial. But you fretting over it is definitely hindering it. Effort past a certain degree (a pretty low degree) backfires in this process. I guess frustration/effort is useful as an indicator that you're buying into some story, though.

[marcu5]

Thanks. I will try to let go of goals. That's difficult. I know that goals are thoughts.

I don't want to minimize the fact that I am attached to goals and stories. That is very true. In part, though, what I wrote about was me going as deeply as I could into "What is not thought?" The frustration and confusion definitely seem to be linked to stories. If there was no story--or no goal--why would I be frustrated? But I was also really asking "What is not thought?" and observing that sticky labeling layer of thought.

It's hard to ask a question without at least the slight story of question-and-answer. The expectation of an answer. Which is a kind of thought. I'm not trying to answer the question intellectually. Or, when that happens, I recognize it as a thought. But I guess I am sort of waiting for an answer, listening for an answer, or feeling for an answer. It's like I ask "What is thought?" and then pay close attention. Which is a kind of seeking, a kind of having-a-goal.

Hm.

[marcu5]

I reread your last message. It makes more sense to me now. If there are sticky thoughts that I can't easily separate from sensations, it's enough to just notice that. I don't need to try to separate the thoughts and the sensations. That trying is there the goal is. You did not say I should have that goal.

[ty0]

If there was no story--or no goal--why would I be frustrated? But I was also really asking "What is not thought?" and observing that sticky labeling layer of thought.

it's enough to just notice that. I don't need to try to separate the thoughts and the sensations. That trying is there the goal is. You did not say I should have that goal.

Why did you have that goal? What did you think you were going to get out of achieving it?

What other goals do you have? Do you have any original goals that don't come from conditioning?

[marcu5]

Why did you have that goal?

I'm not sure. I didn't realize I had it until you brought it up. It's hard to avoid goal thinking. Why?

Why? Why? Why?

Originally, I got into meditation and inquiry for mental-health reasons. Or I believed I did. I wanted to be free from constant anxiety. I had a clear, conscious goal. But then it went beyond that to more ... fundamental? primal? ... concerns. I think I've always had those, as I wrote on the questionnaire when I joined this forum. Still, "I want to know the truth" and "I want to know what is the experiencer?" are goals. Goals, goals, goals.

But you asked why?

I feel like goals are the water I swim in. It's hard for me to step outside the water and see why it's there. Especially since my goals aren't "practical" ones, like getting rid of anxiety. They are about wanting to break through to something. To awaken. To be unblocked.

"Why?" is a really good inquiry.

What did you think you were going to get out of achieving it?


Knowing sensation as distinct from thought.

Do you have any original goals that don't come from conditioning?


I don't know that I understand that.

It feels like there are goals like "I want to be less anxious" that are situational and others that are more ... primal ... more fundamental to who I am, to what everything is, like "What is 'this'?"

[marcu5]

I just had the most-present, directing-experience meditation experience I've ever had. I don't generally do inquiry during my sitting meditation. I do just sitting. Today, I lightly labeled the six-sense experiences I had.

Seeing the wall in front of me = seeing
Tasting my tongue = tasting
Thought about how well meditation is going = thinking
Hearing the air conditioner = hearing
Feeling tension in my shoulders = feeling

(I have a very weak sense of smell, so there's often no awareness of it.)

As with the other senses, the thoughts were just thoughts. The contents of thought wasn't the focus. I've never before stayed in this "state" for an entire meditation session. You asking me about goals and stories really helped. There was no goal or story. Stories would briefly appear, but the were just thoughts.

EXCEPT "This is the best meditation session I've ever had." That thought kept coming up. I was able to label it "thought" and let it go. But it will be a challenge to not cling to the expectation of another session like this, next time I meditate. I guess I'm already telling myself a story about "next time I meditate."

[ty0]

What did you think you were going to get out of achieving it?


Knowing sensation as distinct from thought.

Why would you want that? What do you get out of that? Keep asking yourself why

I have some questions for you, look at your direct experience closely:
Is there seeing, apart from colours?
Is there hearing, apart from sounds?
Is there feeling, apart from sensations?
Is there tasting, apart from flavours?
Is there looking, or is there the thought of looking?
Is there awareness of thoughts, apart from the thoughts?
Is there an experiencer, or just a thought of an experiencer?

[marcu5]

Is there seeing, apart from colours?

No. At first, it felt like there was seeing, but that turned out to be sensation in my face along with a thought about "where seeing comes from." There's just colors.

Is there hearing, apart from sounds?

No. There's no hearing. But I do have a strong sense of "The sounds are over there and I'm over here." I have that subject-object sense with sounds more than with colors or feelings or tastes or smells.

Is there feeling, apart from sensations?

No.

Is there tasting, apart from flavours?

No.

Is there looking, or is there the thought of looking?

It's a thought.

Is there awareness of thoughts, apart from the thoughts?

There's no awareness apart from thoughts.

Is there an experiencer, or just a thought of an experiencer?

It seems like there is. But when I look for the experiencer, all I find is more experience. A tight cluster of sensation and thought about it.

This morning, just a few minutes ago, I got back from my walking meditation, with the question "What is not thought?" As in yesterday's sitting meditation, there was an overall presentness that is new to me. Thoughts arose, but they were like anything else.

When I don't focus on the content of thought, it's hard to remember in detail what the thoughts were after the meditation, but I know most of them were goal and story thoughts about meditation. There's a huge amount of judgement. "You're doing it wrong ... You're doing it right ... it's going really well ... this is the best meditation I've ever had ..."

Why would you want that? What do you get out of that? Keep asking yourself why

Wanting to be special. There are thoughts that come up about telling my friends that I've achieved enlightenment, about coaching others to help them get there ... There are thoughts about getting to have an amazing experience, about the moment I "break through."

This is all I, I, I, self, self, self stuff.

[marcu5]

Sitting meditation: color, sound, taste, feeling, thought was pretty clear. I wasn't aware of much storytelling or goal-seeking. A couple of times thoughts came, rehearsing imagined future conversations. These were pretty easy to let go--to see as thoughts. Towards the end of many sessions, my biological clock (I guess) kicks in and knows there are just a couple of minutes of meditation left. Goals ("soon it will be over") intrude at that point.