The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There seems to be an understanding that LU can point at the truth of no self making it inescapably visible to the looker. It will take time and commitment to arrive at this point on the side of the looker and also the guide. this looker thinks that all that masquerades as the self will be revealed and unpicked.

What are you looking for at LU?
Liberation from the idea of self, a burdensome personalisation of life which causes stickiness and a lack of flow due to this inherent misunderstanding of what is true for all humans , until it becomes obvious.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Not entirely sure! Maybe relentless nudging back to the point of no self through requests for reflection on what is seen and experienced. Not an easy ride, though. Yes, a relentless pointing, leading to a breakthrough in understanding and clarity on this fundamental issue.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been seeking for about thirteen years and meditate often. there's been some falling a away of belief in self but when this happens it seems to come back stronger for a time. I have used Ilona's questioning and found that there is no answer to "Is there a person here?" However the mind kicks in and doesn't like to believe that answer. There have been some interesting experiences when self has disappeared but the idea of self idea of self is hanging on in there.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Hi Catherine, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU :)

There seems to be an understanding that LU can point at the truth of no self making it inescapably visible to the looker

What's the looker? What are you talking about?

Not entirely sure! Maybe relentless nudging back to the point of no self through requests for reflection on what is seen and experienced. Not an easy ride, though. Yes, a relentless pointing, leading to a breakthrough in understanding and clarity on this fundamental issue.

You seem to be really convinced that this has to be some kind of long and arduous process. Why?

the truth of no self

What's "the truth of no self"? You seem to think this is a thing...


Try doing some meditation and drop in the question "What's here that's not a thought?" If you have doubts about whether you're doing it correctly, note that these doubts are thoughts and return to the question. If you notice that there's silence after the question, note that the noticing of the fact of silence is a thought and return to the question. If you get frustrated, note that you're believing a thought like "this isn't working" or something similar and return to the question. Let me know how that works out for ya

Hi Tyler, well looking is going on without there being a looker. There is the energy of looking, possibly? Or the dream of looking, without there being a dreamer. So, kind of happenings without them happening to a someone.
The idea of it being a long, arduous process is just habitual thinking. There can't be any truth in this, as you suggest, it is just a thought that has occurred many times without it necessarily being true. An old habit, rearing its head again.
If truth isnt true , then surely, there is no thing. whatever truth is, it must BE. If there is a falseness in believing in a self then must there not be truth in realising that this is not so? I cant define truth other than by relating it to what's not true. You are here with LU because you have realised no self, I am guessing, so is that not a truth? I once heard someone say that truth feels neutral and untriggering ( easy example is 2 plus 2 equals 4 ). What is not true feels uncomfortable and leaves a flavour of dissonance. I think this is what I mean by truth of no self.


So, have meditated on what's here that is not thought. There is literally nothing there. I think you are suggesting that Truth is also a concept. There is a beingness without a being, a spaciousness, a silence and nothing beyond it. I cant describe it, it feels too large and indefinable to get to grips with. Yes, its beyond thought, beyond any concepts. It feels like the thoughts, stories are contained within it as a tiny fragment. So truth then, is another story? Thanks for getting me thinking further about this.

Hi Tyler, well looking is going on without there being a looker.

Where's the looking? What does looking look like?

The idea of it being a long, arduous process is just habitual thinking. There can't be any truth in this, as you suggest, it is just a thought that has occurred many times without it necessarily being true. An old habit, rearing its head again.

It's good to look at though, since it rests above deeper beliefs. Do you feel like there's something to "get"? Something to "find"? Or is there something you're waiting for?
Does anything exist that isn't within your experience now? Is there anything apart from THIS? What are you looking for?

If truth isnt true , then surely, there is no thing. whatever truth is, it must BE. If there is a falseness in believing in a self then must there not be truth in realising that this is not so?

You're right in saying that true and false are opposites. But what does "false" mean apart from "contrary to what you believe"? What does "true" mean apart from "in line with what you believe"?

I cant define truth other than by relating it to what's not true.

Exactly. You can't define no-self other than by relating to a self. I'd say you already buy into the idea of "no-self" and you would feel that flavour of dissonance if I told you there was a self. So how has this new belief system helped you? Has it made you more awake? More spiritual?

So truth then, is another story?

You could say that, but story and not-story are just 2 sides of the same coin again.

So, have meditated on what's here that is not thought. There is literally nothing there.

Is there not sound? Are there not sensations? What about the visual field, even if your eyes are closed? Have you noticed the morphing static-y patterns behind your eyelids? You can see them clearly when you look at a bright white wall.

Great looking Cat :), let me leave you with a fun easy exercise after all that questioning hahah.

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like).

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

Direct Experience (DE) is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, and sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in DE?

While the thought 'apple' is present in your experience, what the thought talks ABOUT can't be found in DE.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ CHECK
Color labeled ‘apple’ CHECK
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ CHECK (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ CHECK
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ CHECK

However, is there an actual apple apart from these?

Hi Tyler,

thanks for your responses!
So, from your questions and pointing you are saying that there is only DE going on, which includes thoughts, feelings sensations. From this there is no looking, only what is happening either with or without a narrative but that, too, is direct experience. Any felt sense of self is also direct experience, always completely unmuddied and uncontaminated because it can't be anything other than DE. There is nothing to get as the experience is always present, regardless of what flavour it is. There are no boundaries between objects, everything is part of experience whether it is labelled by thought or not- makes no difference but appears to make a difference if there is belief in a self to then take the concept of the label on a thought journey. But even all of that is direct experience. It kind of reminds me of Douglas Harding and The Headless Way.

Still wondering about Truth though :) isn't it supposed to set us free? Are you saying DE is the simple truth? Truth that denies a label as a label can never do it justice? The label is just another part of the experience?

So, from your questions and pointing you are saying that there is only DE going on, which includes thoughts, feelings sensations. From this there is no looking, only what is happening either with or without a narrative but that, too, is direct experience. Any felt sense of self is also direct experience, always completely unmuddied and uncontaminated because it can't be anything other than DE. There is nothing to get as the experience is always present, regardless of what flavour it is. There are no boundaries between objects, everything is part of experience whether it is labelled by thought or not- makes no difference but appears to make a difference if there is belief in a self to then take the concept of the label on a thought journey. But even all of that is direct experience. It kind of reminds me of Douglas Harding and The Headless Way.

I'm not asserting all that but sure I guess 😂. Note that this is what you're inferring from what I'm saying. But I wouldn't debate about any of this stuff. And of course, it's not very helpful to put together all these thoughts.

Still wondering about Truth though :) isn't it supposed to set us free? Are you saying DE is the simple truth? Truth that denies a label as a label can never do it justice? The label is just another part of the experience?

I'm not saying anything, I'm only asking you questions. I think it would be more valuable for you to ponder my questions VERY LITERALLY than to try and figure out what I'm alluding to when I ask them to you. Anyway, why should some thing called "Truth" supposed to set us free? I'm not saying anything about DE or truth. Yes, labels experience, because can they exist outside of experience? Can anything?

Haha, yes I was definitely inferring there!
Wondering now about the nature of experience itself as the only thing there is, because how can anything outside of it be known? As you pointed out.
So there is experience and awareness of experience and are they one and the same thing? Are they indivisible with no need of anything else ? It must be the case.
Not sure where I am going with this. More time is needed to allow things to come up.

Will sleep on it.

Wondering now about the nature of experience itself as the only thing there is, because how can anything outside of it be known?

I would change the question to how can anything outside of experience BE? Or less theoretically, from your own experience, IS there anything outside of experience? And don't make a conclusion after investigating about "the nature of experience", that's just more thought-stuff to mistake for reality.

So there is experience and awareness of experience and are they one and the same thing? Are they indivisible with no need of anything else ? It must be the case.

What awareness of experience? What is that? What "need"?

Hi Tyler.
In direct experience there seems to be nothing but DE itself, life lifeing. Thought is not DE but an imaginary experience created by a thought- created self. Thought isn't real or direct in itself . However DE includes thought , it arises within DE. How can anything BE outside of experience? It can't, because even what is not witnessed and is relayed becomes direct experience. I haven't written much here but it's taken me some time to reflect on this, sorry!!

Thought is not DE but an imaginary experience created by a thought- created self. Thought isn't real or direct in itself . However DE includes thought , it arises within DE.

It's important to note that all this categorisation is also thought. And that without the use of thought, it's impossible to distinguish thought from the 5 senses, or even the 5 senses apart from each other. I think the important thing is to not mistake the content of thought for reality, and see thought for what it is- thought.

For example, maybe you're having trouble sleeping and you're worrying about whether or not you'll feel okay the next day. In this case, you'd be believing that there's a thing called "the next day" and a "way you're going to feel" that's different from now and then judging it on a scale of not-okay to okay. But if you look at DE and what's actually here, you just have sensations, ambient sound, the sight of static-y patterns in the dark, thoughts ABOUT the next day, thoughts ABOUT how you're going to feel, thoughts ABOUT okay-ness, etc..

It's this mistaking of thought for reality that causes lots of suffering. And thought is always about something that isn't here. When you look closely, all you have is what is here, including thoughts about what isn't here (but the thoughts are still here). Then when you catch yourself believing some story and you suddenly snap into seeing it as thought, it's often really funny and it can give you a good chuckle sometimes 😂😂

Question: What is awareness?

Hi Tyler

This is such a helpful post! Thank you.
When do I get to the point of recognising thought for what it is, all of the time??!! :)
Suffering only ever derives from thought here, is it a case of simply remembering?

What is awareness?
Seems to be what is there when thought isn't there. Things are just what they are without any judgement or wishing it different. It seems to be a movement from the head into the senses where stuff is noticed and then left alone. The thing about this state is that it isn't permanent here. There is a spell of awareness followed by a head trip then a jolt back into awareness and so it goes on. Maybe that's all fine!

Maybe I would define it as presence. Being present to what is happening and being in a state of flow. Experience untouched by thought, meaning, reality. Being real. Yes. I think! :)

Heya Cat

When do I get to the point of recognising thought for what it is, all of the time??!! :)

When you stop imagining something happening in the future and look at what's here now 😂. This is "all the time", isn't it? What other time is there?

Seems to be what is there when thought isn't there. Things are just what they are without any judgement or wishing it different. It seems to be a movement from the head into the senses where stuff is noticed and then left alone. The thing about this state is that it isn't permanent here. There is a spell of awareness followed by a head trip then a jolt back into awareness and so it goes on. Maybe that's all fine!

Maybe I would define it as presence. Being present to what is happening and being in a state of flow. Experience untouched by thought, meaning, reality. Being real. Yes. I think! :)

Ok, no need for any more definitions. I just wanted to know if you were reifying something called "awareness" separate from experience.

I'm not gonna give you more to think about.

Go back to the "What's not a thought?" meditation.
Also, spend some time gazing at the sky. Gaze until the labels drop. No goal here. Just enjoy it.

Tyler, something is landing. I need to be with this. May take a few days, if ok?
Thank you.

Take as long as you need :)

Hi Tyler,
Thanks for your patience.
Your comment about now being all the time there is, really hit home. I spent most of yesterday with this and it felt right and comfortable. the imaged states outside of now felt crystal clear and even during the night this was all clean and clear when I woke up for a spell. Today it is muddier, not gone but more effort needed to to bring this system into reality. And irritability arising, suggesting fear.
Is this a case of just reminding and reminding and staying with the sticky, muddy times until clarity returns? I can't find a self but there is a deep down thought clinging that doesn't want to not believe in itself. The heart pounds and anxiety kicks in to protect
the non existent. How is this even happening?