The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

At a conceptual level I understand that I’m not my thoughts and not this body. I can see that I don’t generate thoughts, they just appear, I can see that I don’t really control my body it’s just doing its thing. I can’t actually find a center, but still I find that my primary identification is with my story, my mind, my body.

What are you looking for at LU?

I’m primarily looking for a guide to help me enter “the gateless gate” and to help me see and overcome whatever fear, identification, or beliefs that are here and keeping me postponing that realization until some imagined future. I want to know the truth of what I really am.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

There must be fears or beliefs that I’m unwilling or unable to see and address. I’d like someone to help me see them and loosen my attachment to them. I also have a lot of doubts that because I don’t have many spiritual experiences or other things that I sometimes see people who pass through the gate talk about, that it’s not something that’s going to be available to me in this lifetime. Despite those doubts though, I find myself returning to this over and over again.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I read The Power of Now a long time back and it resonated with me but sort of fell out of my awareness. Then some life experiences a couple years ago led me back to this path. Since then, I’ve spent many hours reading different books, watching videos, meditating, doing self-inquiry, journaling, etc. and I feel like conceptually I understand plenty. Questioning thoughts has allowed many of my beliefs to dissolve and has significantly changed the way I interact with people and situations.

Experientially though, I feel that aside from some improvements in my relative life situation, I am still quite identified with the “me.” I’ve had maybe minor glimpses but it’s easy for my mind to discount them as being figments of my imagination. No major shifts to speak of.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

Hi !

I would be happy to do this inquiry with you. Before we start I wanna check in with you about two things:

1)

Please read the following documents from LU carefully and let me know if you have any questions, doubts or reserveations in regards to them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

2)

I enjoy working with people who are highly motivated for this and want to do exercises/look at questions and stay in the corespondance more or less every day until we finish. This is not about making it rigidly so, exceptions (vacations, times where something else is called for, etc) are fine and in the end we will be guided by a flow beyond our decisions and imagination. So what I am checking in with here, is if this type of engagement feels right and is possible for you?

Hi Elad,
Thanks for your reply and willingness to do the inquiry with me. I've read and have no questions or concerns w/ the two links you sent. I'm motivated and available to stay in touch every day. Looking forward to next steps!

Thanks again,
Marcus

Hi Marcus, nice to meet you! Okay, let's start:

1) Please say to yourself the following sentence several times: *There is no separate self, never was, never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed. Don't try to get anything right, just share what is seen, unfiltered, uncensored. Generally this process will be driven by seeing what is all ready happening, what is all ready the case. What is effortlessly seen while engaging questions and exercises is what is most important, so trust the process and let all flow free and be seen.

2) Please watch this little clip about using the quote function here on the forum, to make our communication easier:

https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ?si=SAxVKYRJj74Z9ig0

Hey Elad,

It's Saturday and I've got some time on my hands so I went through it a few times. This will be a bit long, hopefully that's okay.

• It feels like there’s a separate self. It feels like it’s me who’s breathing, who’s deciding what to write. It also feels like there’s some skepticism or doubt arising because I’ve tried things like this before to no avail.
• I understand the idea of no-self at some level but the story of being responsible for holding together the roles of parent, provider, etc. seems to require the belief that there’s a separate self that needs to actively work to fill those roles.
• I want no self to be true. I can sense that if it is true, if the continued fulfillment of the parts of my story that I consider to be my responsibilities really aren’t dependent on a separate self to be met, there must be a huge sense of relief when the sense of trying to manage and control those things is lessened or dropped.
• I can, at the same time, see that most, maybe all, of what I consider to be my ability to control or manage things is illusory. So much of what I want to happen doesn’t. Most of the time things turn out differently than I plan them. Much of what I do that I consider my responsibility to do simply happens in the moment rather than as part of some pre-conceived plan.
• If there’s already no separate self then all those concerns are pretty silly because there’s no separate self to be lost (only the false story of one) so there should be nothing to worry about. It’s actually kind of frustrating that it seems like there’s a separate self because the story seems so unnecessary if it’s untrue. What a weird thing to have a story that seems so real if it’s not. If there’s no separate self to believe the story, then where does the story appear? What’s believing it? If the story was dropped, who would be dropping it? If there’s no one to drop it, why is the default mode to experience everything through the filter of a separate self?
• There’s some fear that arises if I consider that I might, at some point, really lose interest and belief in all the thoughts that seem to construct the illusion of the separate self. If they go, and I’m just constantly experiencing the moment as it is, does life not lose some of its richness? The melancholy of memories? Hope and anticipation for the future? Why does staying completely present to what is seem dangerous? Maybe I’m imagining something that’s impossible--a continuing separate self that’s simultaneously no-self or something.
• On one hand I recognize that awareness is obvious and here. I recognize that “I”, whatever “I” is, exist. On the other hand, there’s a fear that arises that what’s on the other side of the gateless gate is actually oblivion, the loss of the “I”. That, of course, doesn’t make sense if waking up is a recognition of awareness as being fundamental because awareness, by definition, isn’t oblivion. I just can’t imagine what it’s like to be aware but not sort of constantly checking in through thoughts and reflecting on what’s happened or projecting into the future through worries, anticipation, and planning. That type of reflection seems so fundamental to being. Constant present-awareness of a reality that’s constantly changing seems to negate any possibility of a sense of continuity and that seems... sort of terrifying.
• Then again, I can also see how the constant need to second guess and resist everything through thoughts is not scary, but it’s utterly nuts. I can see that the thoughts just pop up unbidden all the time and it’s so clear that they’re mostly always unnecessary, incorrect, fearful, and distracting. It sort of feels like I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place... or in this case a rock of doubting thoughts and a giant hard place of the hyper-unknown. I feel like everything inside me, in every moment somehow pulls me towards that unknown while everything else inside me pulls me away from it. Sometimes it feels like I can’t trust any of it.
• Why is what everyone says is so obvious and intimate so hard to see?

And...that's what came up.

Hi Marcus, you did great, the honesty and depth of looking is the life blood of this process. I will give you some feedback and questions to look into.

• It feels like there’s a separate self. It feels like it’s me who’s breathing, who’s deciding what to write. It also feels like there’s some skepticism or doubt arising because I’ve tried things like this before to no avail.

What does mean that it *feels* like that? Really look into that. Does it necessarily mean anything else than that it is deeply and uncosnciously believed?

[*] I understand the idea of no-self at some level but the story of being responsible for holding together the roles of parent, provider, etc. seems to require the belief that there’s a separate self that needs to actively work to fill those roles.

Why would it require a belief in a separate self? It requires the skills and values that are part of that. Skills and values do not disappear in this process. Ego fantasy values can diminish. True care does not.

[*] I want no self to be true. I can sense that if it is true, if the continued fulfillment of the parts of my story that I consider to be my responsibilities really aren’t dependent on a separate self to be met, there must be a huge sense of relief when the sense of trying to manage and control those things is lessened or dropped.

Yes that can bring a massive relief. It doesn't mean though that some aspects of life are not hard, and it doesn't remove in one sweep all the conflicts and struggles around scary and unpleasent aspects of life.

[*] I can, at the same time, see that most, maybe all, of what I consider to be my ability to control or manage things is illusory. So much of what I want to happen doesn’t. Most of the time things turn out differently than I plan them. Much of what I do that I consider my responsibility to do simply happens in the moment rather than as part of some pre-conceived plan.

Good this will be helpful.

[*] If there’s already no separate self then all those concerns are pretty silly because there’s no separate self to be lost (only the false story of one) so there should be nothing to worry about. It’s actually kind of frustrating that it seems like there’s a separate self because the story seems so unnecessary if it’s untrue. What a weird thing to have a story that seems so real if it’s not. If there’s no separate self to believe the story, then where does the story appear? What’s believing it? If the story was dropped, who would be dropping it? If there’s no one to drop it, why is the default mode to experience everything through the filter of a separate self?

Good questions. I would encourage to drop the "why" questions for now, they tend to go to intellectualizations. At best to connection to intuitive heart feelings (that's valuable). But for this inquiry stay with the "what" questions and the "where" questions. WHAT experiences the thoughts? WHERE exactly is the separate self?

[*] There’s some fear that arises if I consider that I might, at some point, really lose interest and belief in all the thoughts that seem to construct the illusion of the separate self. If they go, and I’m just constantly experiencing the moment as it is, does life not lose some of its richness? The melancholy of memories? Hope and anticipation for the future? Why does staying completely present to what is seem dangerous? Maybe I’m imagining something that’s impossible--a continuing separate self that’s simultaneously no-self or something.

This is important to look at more. Do you want to find out what is true, even if you might lose some fantasies and it might be sad? You will not lose anything in the sense that it will dissapear (except for that life can take anything anytime, but not this process specifically. But you might see that some fantasies that gave comfort are not more than, like a childs imaginary friends, and serving related functions. What are the functions of memories and future hopes you wan't to keep? Be as concrete as possible.

[*] On one hand I recognize that awareness is obvious and here. I recognize that “I”, whatever “I” is, exist. On the other hand, there’s a fear that arises that what’s on the other side of the gateless gate is actually oblivion, the loss of the “I”. That, of course, doesn’t make sense if waking up is a recognition of awareness as being fundamental because awareness, by definition, isn’t oblivion. I just can’t imagine what it’s like to be aware but not sort of constantly checking in through thoughts and reflecting on what’s happened or projecting into the future through worries, anticipation, and planning. That type of reflection seems so fundamental to being. Constant present-awareness of a reality that’s constantly changing seems to negate any possibility of a sense of continuity and that seems... sort of terrifying.

I see to elements here: fear and trying to figure it out to feel safe. Give more space to explore the fear and your will.

How do recognize that "I" or "awareness" exist? Is it in any way obvious that there is a subject there? Might it be that this is just a belief, and what is there is more like verb then like a noun? Awarenessing? Selfing?

[*] Then again, I can also see how the constant need to second guess and resist everything through thoughts is not scary, but it’s utterly nuts. I can see that the thoughts just pop up unbidden all the time and it’s so clear that they’re mostly always unnecessary, incorrect, fearful, and distracting. It sort of feels like I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place... or in this case a rock of doubting thoughts and a giant hard place of the hyper-unknown. I feel like everything inside me, in every moment somehow pulls me towards that unknown while everything else inside me pulls me away from it. Sometimes it feels like I can’t trust any of it.

I would encourage you to continue to not trust anything except what you discover from inside. This takes courage, to let go of trying to be safe/saved by the authority or skill of others (including me and LU), and completely focus on your own discovery (in the ultimate matter of "what you are and if you are", on a relative level we continue to take council from medical doctors, electricians and etc).

[*] Why is what everyone says is so obvious and intimate so hard to see?
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None of this is obvious until it is. Most people who make this process seem easy either lie or have forgotten what was before. Or at best they are trying to use a skillful means/pointer of helping people by continuously speaking of the relaxation and simplicity of this. In one sense it is truly simple and relaxation is key. However, that doesn't change the way each of us will meet our fears and resistences and other rough parts, when we gradually or not so gradually let go of comforting fantasies/defense mechanisms.

Why would it require a belief in a separate self? It requires the skills and values that are part of that. Skills and values do not disappear in this process. Ego fantasy values can diminish. True care does not.

All evidence does indicate that those who realize their nature generally continue to live in such a way as to not harm those around them, quite the opposite. It was just a thought that came up that said “if you’re not a separate self, and no one else is, why would you feel responsible to a bunch of nobodies.” I don’t really believe that, it’s just what came up the first time I did the exercise from yesterday.

Good questions. I would encourage to drop the "why" questions for now, they tend to go to intellectualizations. At best to connection to intuitive heart feelings (that's valuable). But for this inquiry stay with the "what" questions and the "where" questions. WHAT experiences the thoughts? WHERE exactly is the separate self?

Good point, I’ll keep that in mind. I can’t find a what or a where for the separate self when I look closely. It’s more like an assumption that I default back to. For example when I wake up in the morning or finish a TV show I’ve noticed I usually feel very identified with the person. So much so that the idea that I might not be a person seems absurd. Then, I’ll go looking for the Marcus that I feel like I am and it’s never there to be found, nor is anything there that might take its place. Still, there’s this feeling that it must be there somewhere.

I don’t find any separate self in thoughts, I can tell they’re just commentary on what’s past or on the imaginary future. For me right now, the body and the way it feels like it’s the defining boundary of sensation, seems to be where it most feels like there’s a separate self. If I’m not the body, then what (or where) am I and what is this body? Despite having heard many times that this is not something the mind can find, it sure wants to go off on a wild goose chase to solve the “riddle.” :)

This is important to look at more. Do you want to find out what is true, even if you might lose some fantasies and it might be sad? You will not lose anything in the sense that it will dissapear (except for that life can take anything anytime, but not this process specifically. But you might see that some fantasies that gave comfort are not more than, like a childs imaginary friends, and serving related functions. What are the functions of memories and future hopes you wan't to keep? Be as concrete as possible.

It’s not identity roles or aspirations that I feel apprehensive about losing. Most of those, at least the ones that I’m aware of, feel like they’re fading already. And, when I look more closely, I really don’t think any of the fears in my previous statement are substantiated because, as you alluded to, memories don’t just disappear or become inaccessible. Nor does the ability to think about the future when necessary. Sometimes it seems like I get caught up in the belief that somehow some of the richness of experience will be lost. As if I won’t have the sweetness of the memories of my kid’s being born or of other moments like that in life. The shoebox of photos doesn’t get burned though.

I see to elements here: fear and trying to figure it out to feel safe. Give more space to explore the fear and your will.

How do recognize that "I" or "awareness" exist? Is it in any way obvious that there is a subject there? Might it be that this is just a belief, and what is there is more like verb then like a noun? Awarenessing? Selfing?

Aside from the sort of recurring default belief in a self that’s vaguely associated with a body that I mentioned above, no, there’s no obvious subject. What is obvious is that if I ask “do I exist?” the answer is “yes.” That doesn’t feel like a belief, that feels undeniable. There is awareness here. That’s the most comforting thing to realize—the awareness that’s here is already here. It seems to be a matter of disentangling present awareness from the belief in a separate self.

I would encourage you to continue to not trust anything except what you discover from inside. This takes courage, to let go of trying to be safe/saved by the authority or skill of others (including me and LU), and completely focus on your own discovery (in the ultimate matter of "what you are and if you are", on a relative level we continue to take council from medical doctors, electricians and etc).

Thank you for the encouragement (and all your replies!). That is my aim, to figure out who I really am. Whatever it takes.

None of this is obvious until it is. Most people who make this process seem easy either lie or have forgotten what was before. Or at best they are trying to use a skillful means/pointer of helping people by continuously speaking of the relaxation and simplicity of this. In one sense it is truly simple and relaxation is key. However, that doesn't change the way each of us will meet our fears and resistences and other rough parts, when we gradually or not so gradually let go of comforting fantasies/defense mechanisms.

Thank you again for your reassurance and for the time you’re taking here.

Marcus, hi!

All evidence does indicate that those who realize their nature generally continue to live in such a way as to not harm those around them, quite the opposite. It was just a thought that came up that said “if you’re not a separate self, and no one else is, why would you feel responsible to a bunch of nobodies.” I don’t really believe that, it’s just what came up the first time I did the exercise from yesterday.

I understand this is a scary thought.

Good point, I’ll keep that in mind. I can’t find a what or a where for the separate self when I look closely. It’s more like an assumption that I default back to. For example when I wake up in the morning or finish a TV show I’ve noticed I usually feel very identified with the person. So much so that the idea that I might not be a person seems absurd. Then, I’ll go looking for the Marcus that I feel like I am and it’s never there to be found, nor is anything there that might take its place.

This is very clear. And yes, it is not enough not to find a self. Keep looking for it until it is realized that it's not just that self can't be found, it's that it's a faulty belief. You can only keep looking. The realization will at some point happen, not through your doing. So just relax and keep looking and engaging the questions and exercises here.

Still, there’s this feeling that it must be there somewhere.

What is this feeling? Is it anything more then a thought that is believed deeply, maybe plus some sensations, that are just sensations, that are taken as evidence?

I don’t find any separate self in thoughts, I can tell they’re just commentary on what’s past or on the imaginary future. For me right now, the body and the way it feels like it’s the defining boundary of sensation, seems to be where it most feels like there’s a separate self. If I’m not the body, then what (or where) am I and what is this body? Despite having heard many times that this is not something the mind can find, it sure wants to go off on a wild goose chase to solve the “riddle.” :)

I will send you an exercise to work body experience.

Sometimes it seems like I get caught up in the belief that somehow some of the richness of experience will be lost. As if I won’t have the sweetness of the memories of my kid’s being born or of other moments like that in life. The shoebox of photos doesn’t get burned though.

I can understand that this is an aversive thought and that you wouldn't want that. This process doesn't erase memories but might change the relationship to them, how real they seem. One most feel into if it feels worth it to explore truth and discover where it goes. Or if something else is wanted.

What is obvious is that if I ask “do I exist?” the answer is “yes.” That doesn’t feel like a belief, that feels undeniable. There is awareness here. That’s the most comforting thing to realize—the awareness that’s here is already here. It seems to be a matter of disentangling present awareness from the belief in a separate self.

From my perspective there is massive unconscious beliefs operating here, could halt the process if not recognized.

Are you sure YOU are awareness? What is the evidence?

Could it be awareness just is? Could it be awareness is not A SUBJECT, A NOUN, but rather more like "awarenessing", a verb?

It would be important that you look deeply if what you claim is obvious really is obvious, or just a deeply held belief.

Okay, enough for now, the sincerity is great, keep that direction.

Sending exercise for you in next text

Introductory Body Exercise


Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

What is this feeling? Is it anything more then a thought that is believed deeply, maybe plus some sensations, that are just sensations, that are taken as evidence? [of a separate self]

Surely that’s what it is. A habitual thought pattern.

From my perspective there is massive unconscious beliefs operating here, could halt the process if not recognized.

Are you sure YOU are awareness? What is the evidence?

Could it be awareness just is? Could it be awareness is not A SUBJECT, A NOUN, but rather more like "awarenessing", a verb?

It would be important that you look deeply if what you claim is obvious really is obvious, or just a deeply held belief.

I appreciate the questioning. At first I felt some resistance to it, but there’s probably something there. How’s this— there is at least the perception of a seeming something. Beyond that, I can’t say it’s “me” or that it has any attributes whatsoever.

Re. the body exercise.

With my eyes closed and paying as little attention to thought as little as possible, the body is a bunch of changing sensations with different intensities. I can’t describe exactly what the feelings are other than saying they’re not all the same. The feelings don’t have the same texture and they don’t seem to have a fixed location or a describable relative location. I can shift attention between the sensations but it’s not clear that there are firm boundaries between them. They seemed to be mixed in with other aspects of experience like sound and, in a way, thoughts.

I can see based on that the body doesn’t become a body until it’s seemingly pulled together and called a body by thoughts. Especially when thoughts describe the visual field when the eyes are open.

Hi Marcus, good!

I appreciate the questioning. At first I felt some resistance to it, but there’s probably something there. How’s this— there is at least the perception of a seeming something. Beyond that, I can’t say it’s “me” or that it has any attributes whatsoever.

Great the openness here is key. Yes there are the experiences of self and awareness, we are not doubting that. We are questioning where they come from, what controls the creation of them, if they are what they appear to be. We will continue to work with that. Please do the following exercise:

Observing thoughts

Part 1: Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Part 2: Now notice how the thought "I" or the thought "awareness" or images that are labeled Marcus" appear. Sit for 5 minutes, very still, just notice. Where do those thoughts/images come from and what controls them?

Take good time with these exercises. Quality over speed.

Where are they coming from and going to?

So far as I can tell they're not coming from or going anywhere. There's a pretty continuous stream with maybe the slightest silence between them (but even then it feels like there are more subtle thoughts). All the thoughts are are just sort of "heard' and then gone, on to the next one.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I don't think so. Some of the thoughts seem to be relevant to this task, like pulling me back to the questions I knew I'd be answering, but it's hard to say that I'm "making" any thought appear just because it's relevant to the exercise.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, in this case it's clear that I could not. Even the thoughts that feel like I'm "generating" like "I'll say I can't predict my next thought" don't feel like they're part of a choice I'm making in the moment.

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

If only...

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Likewise.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Evidently not. I still sense some resistance saying that of course I'm picking all these thoughts to learn about non-duality and do self-inquiry etc., but in actual experience it seems like even those thoughts are just sort of coming up on their own.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It doesn't seem to be. It almost feels like I can truncate a thought or squash one down to avoid following a certain line of thinking once it's started, but I don't trust that belief.

There's part of me that feels like when I want to be creative or intentional, like right now for example writing this, that I can use my mind as a tool and create thoughts that compose this message. In the context of "there is no separate self" though, it doesn't make sense that even that would be the case. All of the thoughts that say that thoughts can be intentionally used are just thoughts themselves.

Part 2: Now notice how the thought "I" or the thought "awareness" or images that are labeled Marcus" appear. Sit for 5 minutes, very still, just notice. Where do those thoughts/images come from and what controls them?

Yeah, I don't know where they come from. Tonight pretty much every thought for some reason is doubting and critical. If there was any way I could control, create, or change them, I'd be happy to do so but even the "I" referential thoughts seem like all the rest: arising uncontrolled. I don't feel like I believe them, unpleasant as they are, but it feels like just another thought saying that it doesn't believe them. I'll try this one again in the morning probably. Hopefully there will be more clarity.

Beautiful, much clarity here.

There's part of me that feels like when I want to be creative or intentional, like right now for example writing this, that I can use my mind as a tool and create thoughts that compose this message. In the context of "there is no separate self" though, it doesn't make sense that even that would be the case. All of the thoughts that say that thoughts can be intentionally used are just thoughts themselves.

Right, creativity happens, but there is no one to take credit for it in any ultimate sense.

Try sit and feel what are your innermost subtle feelings, intentions, truth, RIGHT NOW. Then look what decides that they (the feelings and etc) are as they are? Is there actually any controller choosing and controlling those?

Please do the following exercise.

Mind labelling experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?