idontknow

[Mokomiko]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no person/ entity doing things. Things just happen in a free flow. There is no one in control of what is happening in life. Just the trick of the mind that is an overlay on the experience, grabbing it and telling "it's mine, belonging to a me".

What are you looking for at LU?
Liberation and awakening became the most important thing in this life. I am looking for whatever that will help shatter this illusion. I don't really have people around me that are that interested in it, I can briefly talk about it with my husband, some friends, but have no-one around me that has gone through this path, no-one that really understands the experience. I sometimes grow very impatient, frustrated. I found a lot of help and guidance online and I want to take it further.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Well, I get really stuck in my practice recently. I feel like I need someone to help me see why or push me or guide me through the elements I get stuck on. I've been running in circles, have a feeling I am onto something, very close, but there's some resistance I cannot put my finger on. I'm really dedicated to it, reading, meditating, practicing... Thing's have been shifting recently gently, but whenever something major happens, there is this visceral fear, my heart rate pumping like mad, and I'm back to "a me", stronger than before, thinking I'm going mad.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I started this path unknowingly years ago, but ended up in more esoteric circles so to speak. I read a lot of spiritual stuff, meditated but meditation was always a struggle, uncomfortable, like a chore, which I did nevertheless. When I think of it now, I didn't know why I was doing it. It was supposed to give me something I guess, inner peace, but was uncomfortable on many Ievels. I thought I was a bad meditator. I also read Eckhart Tolle at that time, highlighting many passages in his books but I kind of read it as one would read some adventure story. It struck me, but not as something possible for myself. Rather for someone very special.

I was always very intuitive, could read people well, their energy, and couple of years ago I ended up learning telephatic communication with animals. But going through initial levels of my telepathic education I had a feeling that I am not talking to an external being, entity, but to myself. It grew so strong, there was a chasm between the visions I got about the animals and people, and more and more I just felt peace, "all is well" kind of thing, a feeling that these visions were "also illusory". It came to the point I couldn't do it anymore, if I wanted to be fair with my clients. I didn't understand what was true anymore. I really wanted to know what is the truth.

More or less at that time I stumbled across Tony Parsons, later Jim Newman, Susanne Chang and it just blew my mind. I felt internal YES. This is the answer. So I listened a lot of their message, and it was really freeing, there was a huge sense of relief but... . It was getting me nowhere. I stopped meditating at that time, being fine with just being, for some time at least. I didn't believe that THIS is available to everyone so I kind of gave up just wishing it could happen to me. However, probably completely misinterpreting the message, I thought I couldn't do anything, so what's the point.

About 2 months ago I stumbled against Angelo Dilullo on You Tube and for the first time in my life I believed that awakening is available for everyone. I'd never heard anyone saying so before. It came as a shock really. I bought his book, and started doing everything differently. Meditation became very pleasant, observing thoughts, emotions, senses - I suddenly "got it". Kind of finally understood what I'm supposed to do, or how to. Everything I read before made suddenly sense. I had a small shift in perception thanks to the practice with Angelo's advice from his videos and a book. Later I found Ilona Ciunaite and just listening to her stirred something in me.

I became very emotional suddenly. Emotions change quickly, are visceral. I can see they're not connected to anything. When I started meditating in this "new way", there's been a lot of emotions. Sometimes I cry, sometimes I'm angry, I have a feeling there's a lot of old stuff getting out.

I don't know how specific I should be here. But there is this seeing also how the mind put's the "I" over thoughts. First I saw it in meditation only, but now I see it sometimes during the day very clearly. Without having to remind myself of it. Like just yesterday I was baking something and forgot about it. Suddenly there was a thought "The oven". I got up, went to switch it off with a follow up "Thanks God, I remembered!". And I suddenly just saw what happened. There was just this thought about the oven, and then another thought creating an illusion that the "I" did something. It may be a silly thing, but it was a revelation to me. I really saw it clearly.

I had 2 major shifts recently. Once I was very frustrated and meditating was very difficult for a whole day, there was a lot of thoughts, expectations, visions of the future, a lot of shadowy things about myself that were difficult to accept and popping in my head all day. I was so fed up with them that I started to accept them one by one, saying it's ok, without judgement. There was a moment of peace when I suddenly noticed something like a black hole, like a giant pupil of an eye, but very, very real, pulsating and it wasn't a vision, an imagined picture. It was very real, and funnily, like with thoughts, I just saw it had been there for some time then and realized I just hadn't seen it. But as soon as I noticed it, even though I said to myself "it's ok", my body was in a state of raw, pure panic. Heart rate very high, hands sweating. And it was gone within seconds.

On another occasion I was meditating with my eyes open, and after a long time of looking - the wall, furniture, objects started to "dissolve", I had a feeling of spaciousness, the room was kind of breathing with me, like it was a one breath or something - it's really difficult to describe, very psychodelic experience. It was unusual, but my body reacted with panic and it was gone too and the normal vision came back.

As it comes to self - inquiry I get stuck on the same thing recently. All the questioning of "Who am I?" or "Where am I?" lead to this kind of "proprioceptive image" really hard to describe. As if I'm pointed to the body itself, seeing its outline, dark inside, there's the feeling it's just proprioception. I try to treat it as a thought, but it doesn't dissolve. I kind of can't get closer to it. And I end up with this image every time I do self-inquiry.

I really don't know how much more specific I should be. I hope that's sufficient.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Hey Mokomiko, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU :). Let me know your name if you want me to call you by that (unless Mokomiko is your name and I'm just ignorant 😂)

I'm really dedicated to it, reading, meditating, practicing... Thing's have been shifting recently gently, but whenever something major happens, there is this visceral fear, my heart rate pumping like mad, and I'm back to "a me", stronger than before, thinking I'm going mad.

And then this fear of losing your sanity pops up, yeah? Well, good, me and many others have gone through that. The thing is, some people have gone mad, so I can't tell you with absolute certainty that you won't 😂😂. I'm not going to baby you and say "don't worry, it'll be fine". This is a path of surrender and acceptance, and you have to accept the possibility that you may go mad. Your mind desperately hangs onto the self because it's the foundation of so many other things you believe. I'm smelling fear of "not knowing" here, too. Good news! The stronger you hold onto the self, the less likely you'll ever go mad or lose your precious knowledge/beliefs (of course, no awakening for you, either 😂😂😂).

I became very emotional suddenly. Emotions change quickly, are visceral. I can see they're not connected to anything. When I started meditating in this "new way", there's been a lot of emotions. Sometimes I cry, sometimes I'm angry, I have a feeling there's a lot of old stuff getting out.

Whatever kind of meditation you're doing, keep at it

There was a moment of peace when I suddenly noticed something like a black hole, like a giant pupil of an eye, but very, very real, pulsating and it wasn't a vision, an imagined picture. It was very real, and funnily, like with thoughts, I just saw it had been there for some time then and realized I just hadn't seen it. But as soon as I noticed it, even though I said to myself "it's ok", my body was in a state of raw, pure panic. Heart rate very high, hands sweating. And it was gone within seconds.

See if you can go back there and jump into the hole heheh

the wall, furniture, objects started to "dissolve", I had a feeling of spaciousness, the room was kind of breathing with me, like it was a one breath or something - it's really difficult to describe, very psychodelic experience. It was unusual, but my body reacted with panic and it was gone too and the normal vision came back.

This sounds like a typical experience of inside merging with outside. But let me challenge you on this, how do you there are things such as the wall and the furniture out there? How do you know you're "in here" and there are objects "out there"? How do you know that objects exist in an external space? How do you know an external space exists? How do you know an internal space exists?

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like).

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

DE is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, and sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in DE?

While the thought 'apple' is present in your experience, what the thought talks ABOUT can't be found in DE.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ CHECK
Color labeled ‘apple’ CHECK
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ CHECK (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ CHECK
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ CHECK

However, is there an actual apple apart from these?


I'm seeing a general trend of you believing there's something MORE, something OTHER THAN THIS, that you can "get". Call it awakening or understanding or whatever, doesn't matter. I want you to look at your experience and tell me what you're searching for. What could there be other than this?

[Mokomiko]

Hi Tyler, thank you! I sooo much appreciate that you took the time to respond and help out :) Well, you’re not mistaken, my name’s Karolina, I also go by Ina, you can use whichever you like.

The thing is, some people have gone mad, so I can't tell you with absolute certainty that you won't

Reading this just made my hands perspire, I just felt terror. I sat with that for a while and it’s kind of scary, kind of funny now. I guess I just don’t care anymore. Whatever happens. I don’t know what it’s like to be mad anyway, maybe it’s not that bad ;)

I'm smelling fear of "not knowing" here, too.

Yes, knowing was/is a big deal for this one here ;) Learning, gaining knowledge, advising others is the main game. Very tiring, very controlling game. However, this path started actually from not making sense of reality anymore, from noticing that my mind is a genius in explaining everything, making theories so that everything fits nicely. But when I looked at it closely, it didn’t make any sense. The explanation of reality could be just the opposite if only I believed it to be so. It was really difficult to replace my favorite figure of speech („I know”) with „I don’t know”. Not knowing was connected to a lot of shame here. Recently, I started just feeling into „I don’t know. I don’t have to know”. But yes, it’s still very uncomfortable.

See if you can go back there and jump into the hole heheh

Well, I wouldn’t know how to evoke that again, and to be honest I don’t know what it means „jump into”. Like who, how, in what way? Remembering that experience, it just felt I could just be there, I couldn’t even control the fear response. Let alone jump.

But let me challenge you on this, how do you there are things such as the wall and the furniture out there? How do you know you're "in here" and there are objects "out there"? How do you know that objects exist in an external space? How do you know an external space exists? How do you know an internal space exists?

This „how do you know” just evokes something. I kind of don’t. It just seems so. Even if I have this experience of unbound being, of something expansive looking through my eyes, there’s a feeling of my body being the center of it, and this something expanding into all directions. There seem to be directions. I can get up and reach for something covering a distance of e.g. a couple of meters. On the other hand If I want to pin point this something that’s looking, I don’t know where to look, which direction to look into.

Like with this fruit exercise. I cannot find anything but the senses in DE. Yet, the fruit seems to be there, distance seeming to be real. Is distance a thought? I don’t know - I guess it’s an interpretation of the mind of what I see. If I look long enough the vision changes, there’s a lot of shade and light, there’s sort of expansion from where I look. There seem to be nano-second glitches in the vision, or a feeling that all I see gently moves, but paradoxically stays in place. There’s "flaky stuff” in the air.

Can ‘apple’ be found in DE?

It’s so tricky. I kind of feel that you’re possibly pointing to the fact that my mind makes apple an apple. And it’s easier to see if I don’t touch the apple, just sit and look, but when I take it into my hands it seems to be „there”.

I'm seeing a general trend of you believing there's something MORE, something OTHER THAN THIS, that you can "get". Call it awakening or understanding or whatever, doesn't matter. I want you to look at your experience and tell me what you're searching for. What could there be other than this?

I had to sit with this question for a longer time. I kind of hope I’ll understand what reality is, who am I, what this life is about. I really don’t know if there’s something other than this… THIS is so labelled, and full of beliefs that I don’t really know what THIS is. For most of my life I believed in something being behind all of this, God, soul, heaven, hell, all sorts of things that I started questioning. Could it be just THIS? What does it even mean!? All these labels are so immediate. I don’t know if I’m answering your question… It seems the opposite, that THIS is actually LESS than I perceive it to be.

[ty0]

Nice to meet you Karolina!

I guess I just don’t care anymore. Whatever happens. I don’t know what it’s like to be mad anyway, maybe it’s not that bad ;)

Hahah! Thinking that you might be going crazy is a good sign that you're sane, by the way. Psychologists say that insane people aren't aware of their insanity or their descent into insanity. 🤗🤗

Recently, I started just feeling into „I don’t know. I don’t have to know”. But yes, it’s still very uncomfortable.

Good news! Whether you like it or not, whether it's comfortable or not, you can't go back to fooling yourself that "you know things" anymore now that you've seen through it. Any of your views are just as valid/invalid as the belief that there are evil elves hiding in your walls that will come out to get you while you sleep :)). That discomfort comes from resisting the not-knowing and TRYING to know, so it's totally self-made. You can let that go of that resistance/grasping cause there's nothing you can do to change how "you don't know" anyway :)

Well, I wouldn’t know how to evoke that again, and to be honest I don’t know what it means „jump into”. Like who, how, in what way? Remembering that experience, it just felt I could just be there, I couldn’t even control the fear response. Let alone jump.

Oh, that's fine, don't worry about any jumping.

There seem to be nano-second glitches in the vision, or a feeling that all I see gently moves, but paradoxically stays in place. There’s "flaky stuff” in the air.

Well, your vision is always changing, so that explains the "gentle moving". Could this "things staying in place" however just be a habit of imagining the objects in locations in space? If you turn your head left to right slightly, over and over, it's pretty obvious how the visual field is constantly drastically changing. Investigate that sense of "things staying in place" while you're moving your head. Is that more than just thought?

Another thing you can try. Close your eyes. Typically, people think they see "nothing" when they close their eyes. But notice that it's far from nothing. There are loads of static-like morphing shapes and patterns. Observe these for a wall then look at a white wall. You'll find that you can even see these patterns with your eyes open (most obviously when looking at white things). What all this points to is that what you think you see is not what you really see. There's an image, the mind recognises it as a chair, labels it as a chair, and then the SEEING stops and is replaced by an idea of "chair" in "xyz location". Take some time to look around and really SEE things as they are without labels.

Even if I have this experience of unbound being, of something expansive looking through my eyes, there’s a feeling of my body being the center of it, and this something expanding into all directions. There seem to be directions. I can get up and reach for something covering a distance of e.g. a couple of meters. On the other hand If I want to pin point this something that’s looking, I don’t know where to look, which direction to look into.

How do you know there's a space, a center, and directions? You say "I can get up and reach for something covering a distance of e.g. a couple of meters", but can you really? Is there not just an image of what you recognise and label as "your hand/arm" next to an image of "xyz object" and a sensation you label as "your hand touching xyz object"?

When you're walking, how do you know you're walking? Are there not just sensations that you label as "the legs" along with a constantly-changing, kaleidoscopic image? How do you know that there's a body moving through a space and you see objects from the POV of the body? Isn't the constantly-changing visual field the same as if you were to put on VR goggles and "walked around" in a video game? Although when you put on VR goggles, you wouldn't believe that "you're moving through space". And that's strange, because compared with a real-life experience of walking, the only difference is some sensations that you call "the legs", no? Try taking a walk and observing.

In your experience, is there unbound being and something looking through the eyes OR is there the BELIEF that there is unbound being and something looking through the eyes? When you search in your experience, you can't find the something looking, can you even find the "unbound being"? Tell me honestly what you find in your experience. Do you truly find "unbound being" or do you just think/say/believe it's there?

Further, you talk about something looking through your EYES, but how do you know your eyes even exist? You may have the thought "Well, I can see! So obviously I have eyes! Because I need eyes to see!" And to that I would say, how do you know you need eyes to see? Because you learned it in science class? Does a newborn baby know it "has eyes"? Does the visual field even give you the information that "you can see" or is it just some colours and shapes? Does a newborn baby know "it can see"?

And it’s easier to see if I don’t touch the apple, just sit and look, but when I take it into my hands it seems to be „there”.

Well of course it seems to be "there" when you assume you have hands and your hands are touching it.

I had to sit with this question for a longer time. I kind of hope I’ll understand what reality is, who am I, what this life is about.

I don't know the answers to any of these questions 😂😂😂😂. In fact, they don't even make sense to me. You're asking them under the assumptions that there are these things called "reality", "I", and "life".

Could it be just THIS? What does it even mean!?

What does it mean for something to MEAN something? When you see a rock, what does it mean? WHY should it mean? What is "mean"?

I don’t know if I’m answering your question… It seems the opposite, that THIS is actually LESS than I perceive it to be.

You're doing a great job :). No, it's not less, how could it be less? This is this. No more, no less.

[Mokomiko]

Hi Tyler!

OMG, you are quick! :) Thank you :)

I must admit that these visual exercises are really tricky for me...There's a lot of frustration. A lot of "I will never get it".

Investigate that sense of "things staying in place" while you're moving your head. Is that more than just thought?

It literally gives me a headache... I can see how the mind says "The painting is here. The drawers are there". So I guess it's a thought. I'm just trying to imagine what it would be like if I were raised by a pack of wolves in a jungle not knowing such words as "here", "there", "picture", "drawers" - just colors and shapes probably. But it gets tricky with the sense of direction and distance. Even if I don't put a name on it, it feels like this body moves towards something. Again "towards" - label, but I don't know how to describe the sense of movement without those words. Would it feel different if I didn't know these words????

There's an image, the mind recognises it as a chair, labels it as a chair, and then the SEEING stops and is replaced by an idea of "chair" in "xyz location". Take some time to look around and really SEE things as they are without labels.

I kind of get what you're pointing at, I can see how the mind labels things instantly. So I was trying to find the gap between opening my eyes and "raw seeing" and the moment the label comes. But that gap is so small I cannot stay there. A label is so immediate. I guess I need some more time with exploring this.

How do you know there's a space, a center, and directions? You say "I can get up and reach for something covering a distance of e.g. a couple of meters", but can you really? Is there not just an image of what you recognise and label as "your hand/arm" next to an image of "xyz object" and a sensation you label as "your hand touching xyz object"?

When you're walking, how do you know you're walking? Are there not just sensations that you label as "the legs" along with a constantly-changing, kaleidoscopic image? How do you know that there's a body moving through a space and you see objects from the POV of the body? Isn't the constantly-changing visual field the same as if you were to put on VR goggles and "walked around" in a video game?

These two really made me frustrated.I DON'T KNOW... The directions, space, sense of me moving through space they just SEEM TO BE real... For now I can approach it only logically. I see how the mind labels everything instantly, if it labels a chair, it labels "my legs" and so it must label "distance" or "direction" as well or "staying in place". In true honesty I cannot find anything apart from the sensations, the visual aspect, yet the legs seem to be more important than a chair. I wouldn't like to lose a leg for example, I wouldn't mind that much if a chair did. What you're saying somehow suggests that there's no difference between "my legs" and "a chair". And there's a lot of resistance to that idea. I am walking, sitting, looking and I just cannot fully experience what you're pointing at. Thus the frustration.

Once I had a psychodellic experience and was walking in the park and it was OBVIOUS that it was the park and everything moving through me, as if everything was "scrolling through me". I don't know how to put it in words. But how I experience it now when walking and looking, if I relax and keep a gentle focus, not get distracted, things seem to be just a bit strange or unreal. Like something really subtle happens. I also sometimes have that funny feeling looking on my hands. Afer some time of "empty gazing" they become "unreal".

It's easier to see how what you're pointing at works when I close my eyes and for example scratch my leg - I can feel a raw sensation and feel the gap before there is an image or thought saying that "my hand is scratching my leg".

I really don't know how to approach it differently. Maybe I just need more time with this.

In your experience, is there unbound being and something looking through the eyes OR is there the BELIEF that there is unbound being and something looking through the eyes?

OMG, I am fooling myself, aren't I... I feel spaciousness, calm, peace in a kind of deep way, but I really cannot find anything behind my eyes... ;D

Does a newborn baby know it "has eyes"? Does the visual field even give you the information that "you can see" or is it just some colours and shapes? Does a newborn baby know "it can see"?

I'm sure the baby doesn't know it has eyes and that it can see... I guess the seeing happens without knowing or labelling it. Just colors and shapes, light and shade. How do I know I have eyes... I guess, someone told me, I learned what they are for etc. If I didn't know, it would just be colors and shapes. I can imagine that somehow...I sometimes think it would be easier to "get this" if I were in a room full of strange objects I couldn't recognize...

What does it mean for something to MEAN something? When you see a rock, what does it mean? WHY should it mean? What is "mean"?

My mind goes blank on this one. :D

I got really tired with exploring the above. And really frustrated. To the point I didn't want to talk/write or mention it ever again... This "really SEE" is driving me nuts. I feel like I'm hopeless case.

Im truly thankful, nonetheless :)

[ty0]

Hahahahah it looks like I've overloaded you with questions. Don't feel the need to hurry with a response, take as much time as you want.

I must admit that these visual exercises are really tricky for me...There's a lot of frustration. A lot of "I will never get it".

Yes it seems like this is the general theme of your whole response 😂. This frustration is a juicier thing to look at than the visual exercises though... Why is it so frustrating? Do you think life would be better if you "got it"? If you could experience the visual field without all that labelling, do you think that would make you "awakened" or "enlightened", and thus "better"?

"I will never get it" in this context doesn't seem like a big deal, so what are you adding on to it? "I will never get it" therefore "I will never make progress on this path" therefore "I will never reach liberation" therefore "Life will always stay the same" etc. etc..

Frustration/anger is often a cover-up for sadness/helplessness/despair. I'm guessing there could be some deeper stories here like "Life will always stay the same... and that sucks! It's wrong! I want it to be better, this can't be all there is to life!"
"I'll never reach xyz... I'll never get xyz... There's nothing I can do..." Lots of fun stuff to uncover here 😊😊

OMG, I am fooling myself, aren't I... I feel spaciousness, calm, peace in a kind of deep way, but I really cannot find anything behind my eyes... ;D

Hahahah, good good :)

My mind goes blank on this one. :D

Yes, you see how "meaning" is man-made? Every man-made word in the dictionary is defined by other man-made words in the dictionary, INCLUDING the words/concepts "mean" and "meaning".

When concepts come to a dead end, what's left?

I kind of get what you're pointing at, I can see how the mind labels things instantly. So I was trying to find the gap between opening my eyes and "raw seeing" and the moment the label comes. But that gap is so small I cannot stay there. A label is so immediate. I guess I need some more time with exploring this.

Yep yep take your time. Forget about all the questions I gave you and trying to "change your experience" to fit what I'm asking. Keep this visual exploration to 2 simple things:
1) Sky Gazing: Gaze at the sky. The moment you open your eyes, there's a gap. Don't worry about staying there. Let the labels come and don't divert your eyes. Don't look away no matter how strong the eyes' tendency to do so gets. It might be slightly uncomfortable, don't forget to blink if your eyes are getting dry. As you gaze longer and relax, the labelling too will start to relax. Explore the tiny details, isn't it beautiful? There's so much intricacy and beauty all the time that we don't see because we just see "sky". Once you get the hang of gazing and relaxing, it becomes much easier and more pleasurable, and you can apply it not just to the sky but any time you want. You can try it with bathroom floor tiles too, those can be quite remarkable.
2) Walking: Take a walk in the park or anywhere you want. Feel the sensations you call "your feet" and "your legs". It's okay if a mental image or label comes up, just note that it's a thought and continue feeling the sensations. Notice how rich and complex these sensations are. We miss them all the time because we only experience "I'm walking". When you feel like it, direct your attention to the visual field without focusing on anything in particular. Don't try to recreate your psychedelic experience, just enjoy what's here. It doesn't need to be anything other than it is.

These exercises have no goal. We gaze because it's enjoyable to gaze. We walk because it's enjoyable to walk. Any effort is thought. It's imagining something different and trying to change things into that something different. Any frustration comes from thoughts of a goal and not achieving it. Nothing to achieve or "get" here. Just enjoy. When you're enjoying a meal, do you imagine a better meal and get frustrated because you don't have that "better meal"?

[Mokomiko]

Hi! Ok I'm going to take my time and relax a bit :)

I had an aha moment late in the evening though. I was watching Ilona going through some inquiry questions with someone, and she asked a question if sensations are internal or external. They felt internal, but then all I saw felt external. I was looking at my computer, it was getting dark, and I thought that the computer was external. Then I closed my eyes and saw this afterimage of a computer behind my eyelids. And it suddenly was obvious that literally nothing can be external, it's all filtered by the perception of this body!!! If the afterimage felt internal how could the view of a computer be external? So everything I feel, see, experience is kind of "inside", is already filtered. There is no way of knowing what is this that I see and experience, there's no way of knowing the "reality"... 🤯 But then I don't know how to define this "inside" thus the quotation marks. I'm just closing and opening my eyes and there seems not to be inside or outside. If I relate it to the body, there's inside of the body and outside of the body. But in relation to the senses it's not that clear.

I couldn't fall asleep for a long time. My body shivered. I was in awe that this filtering is so obvious, I'm sure I had thoughts about it before. I must have. It's so silly. So not only I cannot know what this picture is, the drawers, but my husband, my friend, these hands. 🤯

As to frustration - I guess I expected I should see it in a certain way, somehow different and couldn't. I don't know if I would be better, but something would be better if I could. Maybe the experience could be better. And then I could get something out of it and ... be better 😂😂😂

In the same way I can see how this "I will never get it" is just a thought, a created story. I willl never get it so my life will stay as it is, my experience will never change and this is "worse" as opposite to this possible, "better" version of life/me.

Yes, behind the anger and frustration there's hopelessness. There's nothing I can do. Really. But something keeps on searching in hope that maybe I will somehow hack the system and find out there's something to be done?

When concepts come to a dead end, what's left?

Peace, noting to be said or done.

Any effort is thought. It's imagining something different and trying to change things into that something different. Any frustration comes from thoughts of a goal and not achieving it.

Yes, I can see that. Thoughts come out of nowhere, I cannot control them, but there's something that instantly believes them. And the emotion follows, the tension in the body. A lot of tension. I'm just feeling into it. It requires a lot of attention to catch those thoughts and not to believe them.

These exercises have no goal. We gaze because it's enjoyable to gaze. We walk because it's enjoyable to walk.

Ok. Got it. Something is just trying so hard here. I will just feel into it.

Thank you.

[ty0]

I had an aha moment late in the evening though. I was watching Ilona going through some inquiry questions with someone, and she asked a question if sensations are internal or external. They felt internal, but then all I saw felt external. I was looking at my computer, it was getting dark, and I thought that the computer was external. Then I closed my eyes and saw this afterimage of a computer behind my eyelids. And it suddenly was obvious that literally nothing can be external, it's all filtered by the perception of this body!!! If the afterimage felt internal how could the view of a computer be external? So everything I feel, see, experience is kind of "inside", is already filtered. There is no way of knowing what is this that I see and experience, there's no way of knowing the "reality"... 🤯 But then I don't know how to define this "inside" thus the quotation marks. I'm just closing and opening my eyes and there seems not to be inside or outside. If I relate it to the body, there's inside of the body and outside of the body. But in relation to the senses it's not that clear.

Hahahah yeah this stuff can be quite mind-blowing when you believe there's such a thing as an objective reality. "Inside and outside" is just a concept. Look, it's all THIS, appearing at once. No part can be isolated and experienced alone. No parts exist until we chop THIS up into parts. One common way we create that separation is defining things as "inside" or "outside", but when you actually look at your experience, there are no 2 spaces in which certain things appear.

You can relate to a "body", or anything else, but you're really just using thought to create 2 imaginary boxes to sort imaginary ideas in. You're not defining things as inside/outside of the body, you can only define things as inside/outside of the CONCEPT of a body. How do you even know you have a body?? 😂😂

I couldn't fall asleep for a long time. My body shivered. I was in awe that this filtering is so obvious, I'm sure I had thoughts about it before. I must have. It's so silly. So not only I cannot know what this picture is, the drawers, but my husband, my friend, these hands.

No no no, what filtering? Look, it's all within your experience. You're believing that there's:
1) An objective, external reality
2) Some kind of filtering process
3) Your perceived filtered experience

But when you look at your experience, what do you find? Isn't it just:
1) Your experience
1a) The THOUGHT of an objective, external reality which is WITHIN your experience
1b) The THOUGHT of some kind of filtering process which is WITHIN your experience
1c) The THOUGHT that your experience is filtered which is WITHIN your experience

There's nothing apart from THIS, there's only thoughts about things apart from THIS appearing WITHIN THIS. And then the question comes, are sensations internal or external? What the heck does internal/external even mean???

Yes, behind the anger and frustration there's hopelessness. There's nothing I can do. Really. But something keeps on searching in hope that maybe I will somehow hack the system and find out there's something to be done?

Ok. Got it. Something is just trying so hard here. I will just feel into it.

Don't you see that the harder you try with any of this, the more it runs away from you? 😂😂 Of course, "nothing to do so I won't do any practice" is BS and won't get you anywhere, but EFFORT and TRYING are certainly counter-productive.

When concepts come to a dead end, what's left?

Peace, noting to be said or done.

Yes, I can see that. Thoughts come out of nowhere, I cannot control them, but there's something that instantly believes them. And the emotion follows, the tension in the body. A lot of tension. I'm just feeling into it. It requires a lot of attention to catch those thoughts and not to believe them.

Ask yourself the question at the top again and see where it leads you. Instead of using thought to come up with an answer, ask the question and stay where the question takes you. As soon as you come up with a thought-answer, you're back to concepts. I want you to go where concepts come to a dead end. What's left?

Here's an exercise if you want more instructions:
Ask: "What's here that's not a thought?" Then, LOOK. If thoughts arise, note that those are just thoughts, don't judge them or yourself. Then, return to the question. If you find yourself judging, note that the judging itself is just more thought. Then, return to the question. LOOK in the gap between question and thought. As soon as you notice that there is a gap, note that EVEN THAT NOTICING of "oh, there's a gap" is another thought. If you have doubts about doing this correctly, note that even the doubts are just thoughts. Go back and back and back again. "What's here that's not a thought?"
Of course, the question can be anything, like "When concepts come to a dead end, what's left?" Just use what you like better.

Now that you've got 3 exercises to do, I hope that keeps you busy for a bit so you don't keep brainstorming about "reality" and how to become awakened and consuming spiritual Youtube and whatever 😂😂😂. I'd recommend prioritising the one I've given you in this post, then doing the other 2 when you're tired of the 1st. You know, it feels like you're a monkey jumping around trying to get your hands on every shiny object/concept (just like I was before) and I'm trying to get you to sit still and look 😂😂😂. You're so restless!! Maybe you'll tire yourself out.. 😂😂

[Mokomiko]

Argh… Let me just be with these for a while. I’ll get back to you soon.

Mokomiko would be a great name for a restless monkey …🙄😂

Thank you

[ty0]

Take your time :)

[Mokomiko]

Hey :)

Just to let you know what’s going on - maybe you’d like to comment on that.

I’m sitting anytime I can with the question tou gave me- eyes opened, eyes closed.

At first, I was just seeing objects but then sth shifted and I felt, more then saw, something that holds everything I see together. It was gentle and peaceful, and there were some emotions coming up - I cried a bit, was frustrated, angry, it came and went. The vision also changed slightly, but it’s really hard to describe.

Then, I was posing the question before falling asleep and I felt as if I fell into something deeper. I’m struggling for words. Do you know those 3d pictures that are just some shapes but if you look at them long enough there’s this translucent 3d shape that pops out? You just have to tune your eyes and there it is, you feel like you could fall into the picture. So this is how this feels, there’s suddenly a sensation that space has this strange quality, as if I could fall into it more. It’s kind of enormous, heavy. And the fear comes immediately - principally heart rate goes up, it feels as if my chest was to burst open, there’s high pitched sound in my ears and enormous pressure in my head. I imagine having a first phase of a stroke could feel like it.
So I wanted to stay with it, and it came and went three times, with bodily sensations each time stronger. The last time my head felt like a baloon filled up with gas to it’s limit and suddenly stopped as if pierced suddenly. It was peaceful and my heart was slowly going back to it’s normal rate. Then thouhts started flowing like mad, wondering what was it, but there was some peace at the same time in the body. Around. I couldn’t fall asleep for a long time. I felt strange.

Yesterday, it was a tough day. I went to a funeral, was really tired, fell asleep as a baby. But the feeling of this strange deeper space woke me up late at night. I don’t remeber feeling any sensations in the body, I tried to keep calm (as if I could, ha ha) but the „strange space” was gone. I fell asleep, had a nightmare (I hardly ever have nightmares).

So I’m keeping the practice. I’m really tired, it was a very hard week, so it’s hard to focus, there’s a lot of thoughts now.

I don’t really know what’s going on, or how to go beyond this fear.

Thank you, as always, K

[ty0]

Sounds like things are heating up :)

At first, I was just seeing objects but then sth shifted and I felt, more then saw, something that holds everything I see together.

This sounds like an explanation of the memory of the experience FROM your current experience. Let's look into this... Did it feel like there were separate "things" you were seeing that were being held together? Or did it feel more like what you were seeing was simply just 1 "thing"? This feeling of "things" being held together can only arise if you're assuming there are separate "things" in the first place. Look in your vision now, where are the "things"? Could you not arbitrarily divide your vision into an infinite number of "things", dividing smaller and smaller? Maybe you look at your hands and you see 2 hands, 2 "things", but can't you divide 1 hand into "palm" and "fingers"? Can't you divide "1 finger" into 3 segments? And 1 segment into 100 lines? And how many arbitrary points can you divide 1 fiingertip line into?

there’s suddenly a sensation that space has this strange quality, as if I could fall into it more. It’s kind of enormous, heavy.

What is space? Is there 1 space or is there infinite space? Is space heavy or weightless? Is space enormous or tiny?

So I’m keeping the practice. I’m really tired, it was a very hard week, so it’s hard to focus, there’s a lot of thoughts now.

Get some rest. Don't feel obligated to practise. Sleep more and drink more water. If you're grieving after the funeral, take time to grieve. You sound exhausted. No need to rush :)

I don’t really know what’s going on, or how to go beyond this fear.

When you say you dont know what's going on, is that a bad thing? Also, you say that, but you seem to "know" that you "should" go beyond this fear to get something or make some kind of progress. Look into this story :)

Anyhow, there's nothing you can "do" to go beyond this fear. Anything you can "do" would just be resistance/avoidance, trying to change things to be the way you think things should be. Let the fear be when it's there, not with the intention of accepting it and making it go away. It'll be there when it is, and it won't be when it isn't. You don't have to give it so much thought. If it's not there now, nothing to do about it. If it is there now, still nothing to do about it. You don't even have to try to 'keep calm'.

As always, take your time :)

[ty0]

How are things going Karolina?

[Mokomiko]

Hi, thank tou for writing. It’s kind of tough here. I was about to write to you.

There was a lot going on life-wise, and meditation was difficult - lots of thoughts, and tiredness. I almost immediately fell asleep or gave into stream of thoughts.

After your last comments about objects - are they separate - I had a sudden but short lived feeling that I am what I see. And then my mind went: oh, I am what I see, how come blah blah and started to analyse it and try to name the feeeling - and it was gone.

I feel like I kind of went backwards in my practice. I have been on my holiday for a couple of days now, sitting in nature, sleeping, resting - so I hope I’ll pick up.

I’m meditating or contemplating but the experiences I had, the feeling of stilness, peace is not so easily available now.

I am really wondering if I’m doing something wrong. Why this felt soooo close and now it’s kind of abstract. Very hard to concentrate.

[ty0]

I am really wondering if I’m doing something wrong. Why this felt soooo close and now it’s kind of abstract. Very hard to concentrate.

When it felt close, how hard were you trying? How intensely were you analysing and trying to figure things out?

Does it feel like the harder you try, the more it escapes you?

Don't worry about picking up your practice. If you're on holiday and have access to nature, let nature teach you. Spend some time gazing at the sky like I've suggested before. If you have a river nearby, go listen to it. Nothing to look for or listen out for, just look and listen. Feel some trees, smell some grass.

Are things tough? Or are the things going on in your head tough? What about now? What's tough now?