Doubtful

[Ixilay]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand that this strong feeling of being the controller, is an illusion in mind body which can drop. And there s a strong sense in me that there s a longing in me for a spaciousness that would come along with it that i keep eluding for so many years now.

What are you looking for at LU? I feel like i ve been runing in circles for a long time, going thru the exercises, trying to look and find myself on the verge of sth than fall back into doubt. Like: "Am i losing time, wasting my life searching, have i actually seem thru it but i just dont know" i feel like i need some guidance thru this pitfall

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Guidance towards Clarity and pointing to the blind spots that i keep bumping into.I recieved guidance about ten years ago from this forum that ended abruptly without a proper explanation that kind of felt bad. So i d love some consistency and patience since i feel there s a sticky doubt pattern that i ve been having hard time getting over with

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I ve just come across spirituality thru some teachers and yoga in my early twenties and have been practicing self inquiry, emotional procesing, somatics and body work for the past 15-18 years

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Alless]

Hello Ixilay

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.

My name is Alan and I’m very happy to help you see through the notion of a separate self.

I see that the forum is not new to you when you say "I recieved guidance about ten years ago from this forum that ended abruptly without a proper explanation that kind of felt bad." To have the conversation end up like that is very disappointing to say the least.
In the light of this, what is it that draws you back to LU?




You also say you have been going through the exercises.
Am I right in assuming that you are referring to the exercises here on LU?



Also would you mind telling me your previous user name so I can take into account what you have done previously?




So if you would like to look deeply together, here are some suggestions to help make the best use of this opportunity. It sets the scene for how you and I might work together and also covers some of the formalities that you may be familiar with already but it will save some time by including them here as we are get under way.

You have also said you would like some consistency. So I would suggest this. Post daily to keep up the momentum. Life continues to happen and if for some reason you find you cannot post on a particular day, or need more time, just let me know. And I’ll do the same.

Leave aside all other “spiritual” related resources- books, teachings, models, theories, philosophy and the like for the duration of our investigation. This a chance to have a completely fresh look. Try to leave aside everything you learned up till now. Here we are going to depend on your Actual Experience, not from what you have read, heard, learned or believed so far. Only from what you yourself can observe directly in the moment from looking at what is here right now.

Be 100% honest. And write as much as you can about what you are experiencing. We avoid philosophy and theory. This is about honest exploration and we are not looking for what appears to be “right” answers. Just report as best you can only what you are experiencing in the moment.

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which will help in our conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s

Sometimes system glitches happen so it’s recommended that you copy and paste into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.

So if you'd like to get started just let me know if what we've covered here - and also in the links above - is all OK with you.

And before I hit the submit button I would like to ask.....
What name do you prefer for me to use ?



Do you have any burning questions?



Alan

[isil]

In the light of this, what is it that draws you back to LU?

I ve never fully left LU actually. Kept doing the exercises without any guidance. Got glimpses here n there n then felt like (and still feel like) i am running in circles. And that i cant do this on my own. that i m not good enough to realize it (!!!)Or i clearly see there i no thinker, no hearer etc yet the next thing i know is that i run into a belief and here the identification with a self is right back in place again.
For example: Even the LU guide that i started working with back then dropped me, so it must mean that i m just not there yet(!!!) so these are some of the beliefs that keep running thru my system. They have been believed here n there and still do mostly, yet i also feel the urge to keep looking, feeling what is here beyond the filter that i always feel that is between what is here and me (!!!). So whenever i try to look deeply now, i bump into these beliefs that say that “i just cant do it on my own.” So I never know if i m doing it right or just running in circles. Or if i sink deep into the bodily sensations and watch the thoughts come and go, i feel like i m falling, then fear or even nausea set in.

May be this is not a direct explanation of why i m back but it s basically all this struggle that never left me since i met LU and even before, this burning question of what s actually happening here, right now. I m so so curious and whatever i do in life, i feel like this is my hot topic that is in the back of my mind, or sometimes just in the center of everything, just like it is these days once again.

Am I right in assuming that you are referring to the exercises here on LU?

yes


Also would you mind telling me your previous user name so I can take into account what you have done previously?

i think it was isil

What name do you prefer for me to use ?

isil is fine.

Do you have any burning questions?

yes. What s going on here?:) How is it possible that i realize “no self” while there is so much identification going on with the self still. Am i wasting my time? These are some questions that keep running thru my mind that either distract me or discourage me. So i guess the real question is: how does this doubt dissolve?

[Alless]

Hello Isil,

Thank you for your responses. It helps give context at this end.

I'm somewhat mystified as to how it ended up so abruptly. But the important thing is that we can start afresh.

I hear you when you ask questions about identification and doubt at the end of your post. Rather than answer them in a philosophical or cognitive way right now, we will look for the answers in direct experience as we get underway. And I never see an endeavour such as this in any way as a waste of time. This inquiry is fundamental to life.

For me you sum up what's important when you say...

this burning question of what s actually happening here, right now. I m so so curious

We will take our time as we investigate "this burning question" as you put it. So helpful that you are so curious. Curiosity is a key ingredient along with with what we might call "radical" honesty. All that is needed is CLEAR SEEING which will be brought to bear on YOUR experience.

It is worth reiterating that this inquiry, more than anything, is a dismantling process. One never knows as we remove "bricks in the wall" which brick causes the other bricks to tumble. So I'm going to suggest that we start from scratch to make sure we don't leave any stone unturned. This may mean that some of the exercises are so familiar with you having spent so much time around LU already. While that is acknowledged repeating exercises can often be rather telling in many cases.
Is that OK with you?




Also about what was covered in the previous post about how we will go about this investigation - and also what was in the in the links - is that all OK with you?



What time zone are you in Isil?


I am on the east coast of Australia.

At the moment there are a few interruptions on the LU site which makes it difficult to post. If you find the site unresponsive just wait a few minutes and try again. And please make a copy of your answers as you go to make sure you don't have to redo them all from the start should the site crash.


Looking forward to investigating together


Alan

[Ixilay]

Hi Alan,

Thank you so much for all your responses and giving me a habd.
While that is acknowledged repeating exercises can often be rather telling in many cases.
Is that OK with you?

Yes, totally fine

Also about what was covered in the previous post about how we will go about this investigation - and also what was in the in the links - is that all OK with you?

Yes


What time zone are you in Isil?

I m in Turkey

[Alless]

Hello Isil,

Thank you so much for all your responses and giving me a habd.

You are very welcome.

So you are in Turkey. It's so wonderful is this digital day and age that we can connect with others all around the world in this way.

And knowing that you are in Turkey the question of your preferred language comes up.
Am I right in assuming you are very comfortable with English? Is it, or another, actually your first language?



Before we go on .....a word about expectations. Expectations about how this will unfold simply get in the way of CLEAR SEEING.

The paradox here is that we come to this inquiry because of expectations and then we're asked to lay them aside ! Why is that? It is because they arise and exist in the realm of thought which is the domain of the illusion we are looking to see through.

Now while it is easier said than done, just do your best to leave all your expectations aside. Typically all these expectations are really beliefs about what should or should not be happening. The pointers that we will use help us see through these beliefs. Again CLEAR SEEING of these beliefs is all that is needed for them to collapse.

And if we look honestly there is likely an over riding desire to "awaken." You are asked to lay that aside as well as it typically carries with it many assumptions and beliefs about what "awakening" is.

Also doubt which you say you are so conscious of can actually arise as an expectation. How could that be an expectation you may ask. Well when you say "So I never know if i m doing it right or just running in circles." .....
Can you see that here is a belief (an expectation especially with the word "never") that I will continue to "not get it?"




If there is such a thing as a valid expectation it is this - the desire to see the truth of what is actually happening in this moment. And typically inherent in that desire is the desire to see whether - or not - there is such a thing we call a "me" or not.

This notion of an "I" is the shakey (non existent) foundation on which so many of these expectations and beliefs are built. This is what robs us of the peace we yearn for.

And in your situation Isil as a result of being around LU for so long as we cover things that you are familiar with there could well be the belief "Oh, I know that" And it can be so subtle but it can have the potential to treat things superficially. So when we cover familiar aspects again do your best to hear it, to see it as though it is the first time.

And another thing to be aware of. While we yearn to find the truth within us, it is every bit as important to find that which veils the truth. Becoming aware of what veils the truth is what this inquiry is all about. It's important to be acutely conscious of expectations and the thing to really be aware of is that expectations can cloud our investigation through having some preconceived notion about how we BELIEVE this will unfold. Expectations (and in particular the subtle, unconscious ones) can seem to exert a power in and of themselves which keeps us bound to the illusion we are subject to in the "conventional dualistic" way of living. The one certainty in this endeavour at LU is that what unfolds is never as we expect it to.

To find the truth of "no self" the approach here is to deconstruct the idea of the separate self. It is an unlearning, an undoing and for this reason the best way to approach this is to put aside everything you think you know or expect and just be with this exploration with an openness and a willingness to LOOK directly.
When you consider everything you have learned or think or know or read or have been taught do you feel anything within you that objects or resists laying all that aside?




Are you willing to just depend on your own authentic direct experience for the duration of this exploration ?




By applying the exercises and questions given throughout this exploration in your day to day living - not just sitting and pondering or imagining what we are exploring - but actually applying the pointings to your life and seeing them in reality…actually doing the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out, you will then be able to LOOK and see that even though the separate self seems to appear over and over, the truth is that it actually can never be found. It is this continual ACTUAL EXPERIENCE that is the key. Eventually it won't matter that the sense of a separate self still appears...there is simply a knowing that it is a concept - a fictitious imaginary character.

This exploration is not about getting rid of the separate self or getting rid of anything, but seeing that there was never a separate limited self to start with.

I know you have said that you have continue to feel the urge to look. Inner wisdom is pointing the way. And it is so necessary to trust the inner wisdom in this looking.
Can you see that this urge to look is likely your inner wisdom pointing the way?



So it is worth reiterating this matter of LOOKING. All that is asked is that you LOOK every day and LOOK diligently…not for anyone’s sake but for your own – for you to be 100% committed to yourself (as we have talked about already) in order to see through the idea of being the separate self. It is through this diligent LOOKING that realizations happen. On the flip side, being gentle with one self is also necessary. Many years of thinking one is a limited separate entity with ingrained beliefs and conditioning isn’t necessarily going to disappear overnight. So being gentle with yourself and having compassion for yourself is very necessary.
Is there anything we have covered so far that does not sit well with you at all?



So let us now look at one of the keys we will use in this exploration. Again something that I suspect you are familiar with but want to make sure we are on the same page about it.


Direct or Actual Experience (DE or AE for short)

So many of us humans believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind) This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways - especially the subtle unconscious ways - in which we do this.

So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing. It is PURE

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience - Direct or Actual Experience. (DE or AE)

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.
What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?




Can you be 100% sure?




When you LOOK DIRECTLY is the colour EXACTLY what you thought it was?




Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.

Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster.


One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling. Now I know you've been down the labeling "burrow" already however let's look at it this way.

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (consciously avoiding any labels where at all possible - that is using the most basic descriptive terms possible.)




What are you are hearing? (consciously avoiding any labels where at all possible - that is using the most basic descriptive terms possible.)





Any insights or realizations or confirmations or reactions or comments you would like to highlight Isil?




With love


Alan

[isil]

Hi Alan,

I m having trouble with the web site so i ll quickly copy paste some of my answers and continue with the rest in another post

Am I right in assuming you are very comfortable with English? Is it, or another, actually your first language?

Yes. Turkish is my mother tongue yet i m quite comfortable with English as well.

Can you see that here is a belief (an expectation especially with the word "never") that I will continue to "not get it?"

oh yes. somehow seeing that this belief has turned into an expectation (or always has been) brings me to tears. ( I also want to thank again since seeing such an elaborate and gentle response from you led my whole system to relax which i also feel that’s helping me to see this expectation of “not getting it”! more clearly)

[isil]

When you consider everything you have learned or think or know or read or have been taught do you feel anything within you that objects or resists laying all that aside?

No, not at all.

Are you willing to just depend on your own authentic direct experience for the duration of this exploration ?

YES.

[isil]

Can you see that this urge to look is likely your inner wisdom pointing the way?

Yes i see that yet i also have this inner voice that s even doubting that there s such a thing as inner wisdom. I guess i blamed myself!!! for so long for not getting it and watched so many videos pointing out the escapism/avoidance that seem to be quite a common thing in this process that i simply cant trust any inner voice/tendency, suspecting that if anything that even remotely resembles a “seeking” then it must be an illusion. however obviously there s a pull towards this direction all the time. And that s not questionable really. It s simply there. even if it s just in the form of a curiosity. so yes:)

[isil]

Is there anything we have covered so far that does not sit well with you at all?

nope:)

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.
What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?

talking about my slippers right now:) and I think it is light brown oand white, two layers on top of each other.


Can you be 100% sure?

nope


When you LOOK DIRECTLY is the colour EXACTLY what you thought it was?
there was no white, just two shades of brown

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

yes

[isil]

Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……

What are you are seeing? (consciously avoiding any labels where at all possible - that is using the most basic descriptive terms possible.) the first thing that i notice is that i can’t describe anything without labeling. I’m a writer. So when you ask me to describe what is here, what i see, i have all kinds of descriptions bubbling up in my head right away. Sitting at a big wooden table at a cafe by the sea. Baby palm trees moving with the breeze.A guy is passing by the sea that is right across the cafe. The sea is so bright under the sun. Calm.

Yet the more i try to avoid labeling, the more i feel like i can only keep quite if i m not to use any labeling.

Black wooden seats and tables, all empty.
See, i did it again:) I wish i could paint:)


Wind is blowing. more cars passing by. some parked cars around. lots of empty ashtrays. A young woman in a black dress and young man with a green shirt just walked in. a huge truck passed by. a sailboat is coming closer to the shore.

What are you are hearing? (consciously avoiding any labels where at all possible - that is using the most basic descriptive terms possible.)

music (coming from my headphones) and more music (that is in the background). Two distinct music at the same time. And car engines.sound of typing.

[Alless]

Isil

I also want to thank again since seeing such an elaborate and gentle response from you led my whole system to relax

So good you felt this letting go. The more we can relax the better. When we find we are “trying” we can be sure we're coming from the mind.

And there may be times when I do be very direct. Some people may call it the zen stick !!😊 But it will always be with the pure intent of helping dismantle the thought structures. And I'll give you a heads up when that's happening!!

Yes i see that yet i also have this inner voice that s even doubting that there s such a thing as inner wisdom.

This trusting of the inner wisdom is really is really important. We all have two (at least two !!) voices. The voice in the head and the “voice” of inner wisdom. The voice in the head is so predominant that it overrides the inner wisdom so often. The voice in the head is the “me” that we think we are. And that is what this investigation is all about - to see how and in what ways the voice in the head usurps control.

I rarely quote “other teachers out there” especially after asking you to lay aside all teachings for the duration of this investigation. but will make an exception here. I don’t know if you are familiar with Adyashanti or not but he says what is being pointed to here so well that I include it here.

“The inner teacher is a rather subtle and obscure inner force. It arises in deep inner silence when you are truly humble and sincere. It is your deepest being reaching out to you. It often has the paradoxical feel of being deeply rooted within us but also has the feeling of otherness to it as well.

One of the functions of the outer teacher is to help orient you to the inner teacher by either confirming or questioning what you feel to be the inner teacher. Listening to your own deepest wisdom is the inner teacher. And learning what is and isn’t wise through trial and error is how you more precisely hone in on the authentic inner teacher.

It is a delicate and uncertain path to discover what is wise within you.

But it is essential.”

Leaning into direct experience as we will be here opens the way for this inner wisdom to reveal itself more and more.

And the slipper exercise. You have seen what was being pointed to here well. This direct looking every time will be at the heart of everything we do.

the first thing that i notice is that i can’t describe anything without labeling. I’m a writer. So when you ask me to describe what is here, what i see, i have all kinds of descriptions bubbling up in my head right away.

Ah so writing is your vocation. Labels and concepts and ideas are at the heart of what do you do ! So good that I know that you are a writer.

It is so true that we can't describe anything without labeling. We have to use labels to communicate. The issue here is not getting rid of labels per se but realizing when we are experiencing life THROUGH the label.

Consider this….
Language itself is a labeling phenomenon and every word but a symbol. So what we are looking for here in this exploration is to reduce the description of experience down to the most fundamental, simple descriptor. That is, describing our experience with minimal interference from the mind - without adding the content of any thoughts or interpretations. (Mind is the term we use for streams of thought. While some would challenge that such a thing as a mind exists, for practical purposes here we will use the term “mind”)


Imagine what a baby sees when they first open their eyes.
What would you say they are seeing?



Do they have any labels in their mind?



If you asked a five year old what they are seeing, would what they describe be any different to what a baby actually is seeing?



If no, why not?



If yes, how would it be different?



With love


Alan

[isil]

hi Alan,

here we go:

Imagine what a baby sees when they first open their eyes.

what would you say they are seeing?

Probably just forms and colors. Movement and light.

Do they have labels in their mind?

No

If you asked a five year old what they are seeing, would what they described be any different to what a baby actually is seeing?

No

If no why not?

Cause the whole scene would be the same except the things that make up the scene will have names this time and may be certain features attributed to them. So the scene would be same but only with a story and labels attached to it.

[isil]

Hi Alan,

Sorry i m just quickly copy pasting my answers and not even greeting you in the posts:)cause i m having really hard time being able to open the website, so i m rushing a bit so as not to lose the text.
just a side note:
I have a few things to say about being a writer. This has been a real obstacle or let s say an issue, if you will, through my seeking journey, for years now. I quit writing couple of times just cause i feel it keeps me so much in the realm of imagination and concepts and words, mind basically. and then felt bad about it. And i picked it up again. Published books then stopped.

I ve been so ambivalent about it. It s sth that i feel needs to be looked at during this process since this coming and going between the idea of writing (novels-stories) or not has captured my attention all along and has always sneaked into my looking- seeking process somehow.

[Alless]

Hello Isil

That was a quick response!!

Before I respond to your post take a look at this ....


How would you describe in the most fundamental terms - without invoking thought - what is SEEN in DIRECT EXPERIENCE?




With love


Alan