knowledge of suffering

[Euan]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I've been struggling for a while to really understand what this means. On a purely intellectual level, I'm convinced that there is no ontologocial self. But I guess what we're pointing to here is more to do with the moment-to-moment sensation(/illusion) of 'having a self'. I've tried to look for this experience, but can never quite spot it...

What are you looking for at LU? I wonder if a guide could help me understand more precisely what I'm looking for in anatta. I've read and been taught in various ways but never find the reading/teaching helpful, I always feel confused about exactly what I'm looking for. Perhaps what I need is a long back-and-fourth with a guide to get to the bottom of it.

My ultimate goal with observing anatta is most people - to understand and eventually end dukha. I recently went on a 2 week mahasi noting retreat, which gave me a taste of the depths of peace that the buddhist path can offer. Since then, I've observed many of my old unpleasant thought patterns gradually return, which has been quite painful to watch. So I'm feeling very motivated make progress on this path and to find new ways to let go of these unpleasant thought patterns.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? My hope is to have a back-and-fourth with a number of clarifying questions about what the experience of atta/anatta is and what it is not in a language I can understand. Most stuff I hear/read about anatta is either something I find obvious or something totally bewildering. I guess everyone has their particular 'level' on which particular kinds of sentences can be helpful for realising anatta. Maybe a guide would sense what the right level is for me.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? My journey started almost 3 years ago when I tried MDMA for the first time and got a glimpse into the power of metta. After that, I wanted to find ways to cultivate that feeling of metta more in my sober life. I was directed by a friend towards buddhism.

I started meditating, following the instructions from Culadasa's The Mind Illuminated (TMI). I went through three cycles of making good progress with TMI, then hitting a plateau, getting upset about the lack of progress, and ending up with concentration worse than when I even started the practice.

For the time being I've put concentration practice aside and have an intention to focus more on insight. I attended a 10 day Goenka vipassana retreat, and a 2 week Mahasi noting retreat. As I mentioned above, what I experienced on/after the Mahasi retreat has given me lots of motivation to continue down the insight path. Unlike some people, I'm don't feel so bothered about reliably achieving Jhanas and all that stuff.

At the moment I feel at a bit of a crossroads, not sure about the best way to proceed. I could just keep doing Mahasi noting, but I think there may be better approaches for me to explore. Hence why I am here!

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[Windaway]

Dear OfTheField ,

(is that what you prefer to be called?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. It’s great to see you here!
My name is David, and I’ll be glad to assist in exploring your experience.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

1) The LU Disclaimer: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do so as well.

What time zone are you in?

I’m in Spain time.

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

[Euan]

Hi David,

Thanks so much for the message and the offer to assist!

Everything you said sounds good to me.

What time zone are you in?

My timezone is BST (GMT+1, UK)

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

I didn't time my post very well, and I'm actually going to be very busy (at a festival then a work trip), for the next 2 weeks (until Tuesday 25th June). I assumed it would take longer to find a mentor! Would it be possible for us to start our daily posting on Tuesday 25th?

Thanks!
Euan

[Windaway]

Hello Euan,

Ok, when you are ready send me a message here.

Take care

David

[Euan]

Hi David,

I now have the time to get started on this, thanks for waiting! And thanks again for offering to help :)

Euan

[Windaway]

Hello Euan,

The website was down that is the reason I write to you only now.

So let's start:

I appreciate your enthusiasm and excitement. These qualities will support your exploration process. Let’s begin with this:

For this exploration, read one phrase at a time. For each phrase, follow this procedure:

1 - Read the statement, then close your eyes.
2 - Repeat the statement aloud (or in your mind) three times.
3 -Then let go of thought.
4 - Notice your body's reaction.
5 - Stay in that space as long as it feels right.
6 - Move to the next prase.

Tip: It's not about how long you can explore. Whether it's one minute or two hours, it really does not matter. What matters is the quality of your observation and your curiosity. Remember, more is not always better.


Here are the phrases:

* HERE is the only place in space that I experience.



* NOW is the only moment in time that I experience.



* What is it that I am seeking that is not here and now?



* What is it that is here and now that I don't want?




Write down your insights (or the absence of them) and describe your sensations during this exploration.

[Euan]

Hey David,

No worries about the delay!

I tried out the exercise, below is my report.

* HERE is the only place in space that I experience.

I felt a tightness in the centre of my chest, and a sense of frustration (attributed to how unstable my attention feels just now)
I also felt a straight tightness in the back of my head and neck, as if there's a knot in the back of my head that is tugging at the rest of my head and neck. And a sense of being 'located' at that knot.

* NOW is the only moment in time that I experience.

Experience seemed to be changing quite fast and "flickering" or "pulsing" at around 2-3Hz. I tuned into the ringing in my ears and it was pulsing, the sensations in my abdomen also seemed to be rapidly (but subtly) changing shape. Frustration due to constant intrusive thoughts distracting me from paying attention to my sensory experience.

* What is it that I am seeking that is not here and now?

I felt an energy that is trying to pull me to stand up and move somewhere. An accompanying light sparkly feeling in my chest and stomach, kind of like "butterflies in my stomach". A lump in my throat that I attributed to a nostalgic feeling.

* What is it that is here and now that I don't want?

A sense of everything dropping/falling in my body, and a sickly/nausea feeling in the bottom of my stomach. It felt like I tuned into low frequencies, I could hear only a low frequency buzzing, and low frequency rumbles in my body, and sensations felt dulled.


Is this the format and level of detail I should aim for?
Thanks!

[Windaway]

Hello Euan,

That is great, your answers show your ability to be with sensation as they are in the moment, very useful.

If you look for the I, what is there?

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Where exactly did you look?

What exactly did you find?

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

[Euan]

If you look for the I, what is there?

A light pleasant high-frequency feeling spreading through my chest and arms. It is radiating from the centre of my chest. It feels as if there is something in me excitedly jumping forth to say "I'm here!"

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

A sense of confident denial - something along the lines of "of course there is _something_ here which is me, we're just using language in a different way". A sense of preciousness of whatever sense of "I" is here, and a strange confidence that won't be taken away. Still having the sensations described above.

Where exactly did you look?

For the experiencer and witness, I looked behind my field of vision (for the thing that is 'watching' my field of vision).
For the doer, I looked at the sensations in my arms and hands, as if looking for the cause of their motion (wanting to trace the sensations up into the torso where I expect the source of the motion to be)
When I think about finding a decision maker I feel stressed and get heavy sensation of energy dropping down my body. The concept of decision making lives in a realm that I feel averse to thinking about at the moment.

What exactly did you find?

A sense of control and agency, an light and pleasureful energy radiating from my torso that is trying to send a message "I am here and I am powerful, I can do the things I choose".

[Windaway]

Helli Euan,

A light pleasant high-frequency feeling spreading through my chest and arms. It is radiating from the centre of my chest. It feels as if there is something in me excitedly jumping forth to say "I'm here!"

Off course you are here.

What do you mean by here?

Could you find an exact location of this I?

A sense of confident denial - something along the lines of "of course there is _something_ here which is me, we're just using language in a different way". A sense of preciousness of whatever sense of "I" is here, and a strange confidence that won't be taken away. Still having the sensations described above.

To deny that you ARE is stupid.
The question was finding the doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or witness.

Could you find one?

The thought will probably say ME.
So tell me more about that ME.

Who are you?

For the experiencer and witness, I looked behind my field of vision (for the thing that is 'watching' my field of vision).

Experience of vision arises yes.

Tell me more about this "thing" that is watching.
What it is?
Where it is?
What it is made of?

For the doer, I looked at the sensations in my arms and hands, as if looking for the cause of their motion (wanting to trace the sensations up into the torso where I expect the source of the motion to be)

Expectation is another word for belief.

Could you find this doer?

When I think about finding a decision maker I feel stressed and get heavy sensation of energy dropping down my body. The concept of decision making lives in a realm that I feel averse to thinking about at the moment.

What do you mean by :lives in a realm?
Can you explain to me?

A sense of control and agency, an light and pleasureful energy radiating from my torso that is trying to send a message "I am here and I am powerful, I can do the things I choose".

Ok.
When you say: "I can do the things I choose" what do you mean?

Y read in your inscription that you want to:
My ultimate goal with observing anatta is most people - to understand and eventually end dukha.
As you are powerful and can do the things you choose.
Why don't you end dukha?
(PS:I have no idea what dukha is. But that is irrelevant to the question.)

[Euan]

What do you mean by here?

I think in this case by here I mean: being alive, being seen, being acknowledged to exist, being powerful in that I can do things/have agency. So 'here' means there is a powerful force/agency that isn't powerless, it can interact with the world in order to achieve its wants/goals.

Could you find an exact location of this I?

It felt like it was radiating from the centre of my chest into the rest of my torso. Or maybe it was all over my body. Or maybe it was in my head. I'm very confused about this question! Perhaps it was just wherever my attention was.

The question was finding the doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or witness.
Could you find one?

doer: I spent some time investigating small actions like moving my head, blinking, scratching etc. I tried to look at the moment when the intention to do each action arose - and where the intention came from. Often the action happened automatically and too fast for me to spot any intention to do it arising. When I _could_ spot the intention emerging, it often came in the form of an energy building up somewhere in the body (by energy I mean sensations of movement or tension). Sometimes the intention felt like it came from a thought, like "let's do more actions in order to study intentions".
thinker: I did a similar thing with thoughts - tried to look for the moment the stream of thought first started and what caused it to start. I couldn't find anything, the thought just started totally by itself.
decision maker: similar to above, there was never any very precise point in time when a decision seemed to be made.
experiencer & witness: all I can look at is experience itself, so I can't find an experience or a witness. My instinct is to try to look "behind my eyes" or "behind the sensations in the body", but I just end up focusing on my field of vision or some element of my sensations.

Who are you?

I am a human who lives in a body. I sat with this question for a bit and nothing came up besides obvious answers like "my name is this and I live here and I do this for work".

Tell me more about this "thing" that is watching.
What it is?
Where it is?
What it is made of?

I can't observe/see/sense this "thing" in any given moment, so I think the "thing" is an abstract concept that doesn't have any place in moment-to-moment experience. The "thing" is what my mind interprets you mean when you say "experiencer" or "witness". My mind naturally interprets your use of "experiencer" and "witness" as something that is located such that it can see the field of vision - hence it being "behind" the field of vision in the same way that the audience at the cinema is "behind" the screen. But perhaps you can say more about what you mean by "experiencer" and "witness".

What do you mean by :lives in a realm?

I think I just mean that there is a big part of me who wants to believe that decision making isn't real - that we don't have free will, we don't have any responsibility for our actions.

Why don't you end dukha?

* By dukha I am mostly pointing at resistance to some experience.
* I think often, if I put my mind to it and have a strong enough intention, I can 'end dukha' in the present moment, but that 'ending of dukha' cannot last long, since I cannot maintain the strong intention and awareness that is required. The resistance naturally arises again, and it takes continuous effort to stop it, which I can't maintain.

As you are powerful and can do the things you choose.

I didn't say I am powerful and can do the things I choose, I said that _part of me wants to believe that I am powerful and I can do the things that I chose_! This part is sending this message clearly because there is another part of me who thinks that I am powerless.

[Windaway]

Hello Euan,

Thank you for your answer.

I am under the impression that we use words differently. That can create confusion and mislead our communication.
As we come from probably different countries/language and paths with specific semantics.

So I propose to take a different way if that is ok with you.

Let's try to start fresh. yeah?
That is ok for you?

Why don't you explain:

Where you are at the moment?

What are you struggling with?

[Euan]

Hi David,

Sure thing, that is fine for me!

Where you are at the moment?

There are a number of ways I could interpret this question.
If you are asking literally, where is my body right now: then I am in my living room in London.
If you are asking where perceive myself to be in my body: I perceive myself to be in my head, just behind the eyes.
If you are asking more metaphorically, where am I on my 'spiritual journey': I have spent 3 years meditating, trying out different techniques, and trying to understand what people mean when they talk about "seeing your true self", "seeing the lack of a self", and language like that. I feel confused about exactly what experience people are talking about here, and exactly what kind of effort is required to have that experience.

What are you struggling with?

Do you mean struggling in my life generally, or struggling in terms of seeing through the illusion of a separate self?
In my life generally: it's a big question, I can answer in the next message if that's the question.
In terms of seeing through the illusion of a separate self: the problem is roughly what I said above - I don't know how to see the separate self. I can look for sensations in the location where I perceive there to be a separate self (behind the eyes). I can look for the source of my intentions. I can try to think more abstractly about "who I was before I was born". But I don't feel that any of these are actually what needs to be done in order to get the experience that people say one needs in order to stop suffering. So I don't know how to proceed.

It would be helpful to hear which of my interpretations of your questions above match what you were intending to ask, so I can more easily interpret your questions in the future!

Thanks again for your patience and the effort you are putting in to helping me!
Euan

[Windaway]

Hello Euan,

There are a number of ways I could interpret this question

.
The fact that you see different layers of interpretation is the reflection of your ability to see that thoughts are always "inside" some frame of reference.

If you are asking literally, where is my body right now: then I am in my living room in London.
If you are asking where perceive myself to be in my body: I perceive myself to be in my head, just behind the eyes.

Space, body and living room are one way to frame WHAT IS. It is a localize interpretation of an unframable whole.

trying to understand what people mean when they talk about "seeing your true self", "seeing the lack of a self", and language like that. I feel confused about exactly what experience people are talking about here, and exactly what kind of effort is required to have that experience.

Here in LU guidance we specifically focus on exploring the individual self, Euan or David.

It is very simple the separate individual exist as a experience but there is not separate individual in direct experience or in Actuality.

Imagine you are watching a screen with the image of a apple. You may say: I am watching an apple.
Which ia true at some level.
But the FACT is that there is no apple to be found in your direct experience.

It is the shame with the individual.

I don't know how to see the separate self. I can look for sensations in the location where I perceive there to be a separate self (behind the eyes). I can look for the source of my intentions. I can try to think more abstractly about "who I was before I was born". But I don't feel that any of these are actually what needs to be done in order to get the experience that people say one needs in order to stop suffering. So I don't know how to proceed.

The confusion in this process is that we are used to find things like: object, experiences or state of consciousness. We start a quest, put effort and energy with the hope to find the thing we seek.

But with this process it doesn't work that way. Simply because you cannot find what is not real. In the sense that you can prove a negative. How can I prove unicorn doesn't exist? The only prof is I can't find one.

That what we will do together. We will explore your experience and see if you can find this individual that is supposedly here, in contrôle and living its life.

It would be helpful to hear which of my interpretations of your questions above match what you were intending to ask, so I can more easily interpret your questions in the future!

I appreciate your willingness of clarity.
With time we will adjust spontaneous. I hope. ^^

If you have question about the above dont hesitate to ask.

Lets start with this exploration :

[Windaway]

Little correction :

But with this process it doesn't work that way. Simply because you cannot find what is not real. In the sense that you can't prove a negative. How can I prove unicorn doesn't exist? The only prof is I can't find one.

And the exploration :
Coloured Socks

[/b]
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.