Kernels

[robebor]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
A bird chirping now outside my window even while eyes open and writing you is heard without a hearer, neither inside nor outside, or everything inside, yet there’s some slight labeling and seduction into the mystery and inquiry into presence. Nothing can push the sound away or bring it closer. It feels naked as me/not me.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking to deepen not-self, pointing to and dissolving any remaining resistance to that understanding and challenging not-self as a realization or spiritual acquisition. I identify as a recovering addict to awakening, its strategies (reading and listening to dhamma talks) and supports (retreats). I think I’m still planning on being two cents more robust in my happiness.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to hear helpful pointers to blind spots and friendly support. Ultimately I hope to hear myself articulate what living a fully liberated life means to me. Hopefully a guided conversation can begin by grounding ourselves in seeing as seeing and hearing as hearing at first. Ideally I’d like to work with someone who can articulate fetter work and has some understanding of my Theravadan background.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Temporal lobe epilepsy as a child/teenager made it difficult for me to associate bodily sensation in a container. My parents introduced me to meditation and yoga when I was 13 to help me cope with disruptive mystical visions, nondual experiences, and fear/uncertainty. As an adult I cultivated a Theravadan gradual path through numerous 1 month retreats, several 3 month retreats and a year-long Buddhist monastic ordination. Initially I began with Burmese Mahasi and U Pandita approaches and then I cultivated Sri Lankan (Bhante G) and Thai forest style approaches to various samadhi and jhanic states.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi robebor
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[robebor]

Hi robebor
(is that what you want me to call you?

Please call me Robert. I’m so happy to meet you, Rali. Thank you for writing me.

What time zone are in?

EST
I can start now and meet every day. How do we begin?

[poppyseed]

Hi Robert

Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ
You can click on the "preview" button next to "submit" to see how your reply will look like :)

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

EST

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

I can start now and meet every day. How do we begin?

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[robebor]

Thanks, Rali, for your patience with me, while I learn this. I'm doing an intensive meditation retreat (6 am to 8 pm) at a Burmese meditation center in Maryland right now, but I have plenty of time to respond to you after when I'm home in the evenings. Yesterday was the first full day. So my exhaustion is normal, as I transition back to more continuous presence.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I honestly can't say I haven't realized there's no separate self. I don't see a boundary or a container for a separate self. I don't know what to add.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I also honestly don't know. I have no expectations. When I realized there was no Robert here, I don't think I was really expecting what it would be either. Perhaps I was expecting more emptiness, but actually life feels really full and more energetic and alive than I expected.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don't have any desires for something not to happen.

4. What are you hoping for?

I'm looking for clarity around the no-self issue. The suffering, mental chatter, obsessive images, daydreams, mental pressures, stories, feelings of shame, etc. all are reduced so much. But there's still some remaining amount, especially around shame. I suppose I'd like clarity about why some shame remains, whether what's remaining will go away or is there some other way of perceiving what's remaining?

5. What is missing?

Nothing feels like it's missing right now.

Love,
Robert

[poppyseed]

Hi Robert

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[robebor]

Is that OK with you?

Hi Rali, thank you for your engagement. Do you have any advice for becoming aware of underlying beliefs? Thank you for inviting me to continue reflecting on expectations. I can articulate another expectation or belief structure. I believe what's in line with the truth (including not-self) will appear with a reduced suffering context. I've noticed that the supports that keep suffering in place are the same supports that keep the subject appearing as separate from the object. I've also noticed that desires that come out of a feeling of lack (not having) keep the subject separated from the object of getting what it wants. So wanting and expecting something or anything is a self-structure. I have a belief that instead of having to drop all desires I look at areas in which a separate self might try to locate itself.

If you look for the I, what is there?

The enquiry began with repeating the question where am I and then saying silently to myself the first person pronoun "I,I,...I" to see what is there. Honestly, it feels like a one step backing up into an diffuse awareness that appears and doesn't lead out of itself or point anywhere and has no center.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look?

You say there's no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or witness, that's where my investigations lead me, too. :) I look back and see no seer either. Instead I see the computer screen glowing in the dark and giant dark legs coming out of nowhere on which the screen rests, shapes and colors appearing here and thre. I also look into sound, sensations, thoughts and feelings.

What exactly did you find?

I listen to the high pitch sound with my eyes closed. There's no maker or receiver of sound. Investigating this provokes a sense of peace and relaxation. There's a buzzing in the heart area. There's a slight sense of here in the heart and not in the room. When I close my eyes, the room disappears and there's no border or edge to the sensation. It's everywhere and nowhere and the room and the heart are just thoughts.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Then I look into thoughts, but there's only a waiting for a thought and a thought about waiting for a thought to arise. So I create a thought out of nothing just to start thinking. It's made up of a memory of a mathematical equation. It ends. I can't distinguish between hearing voices outside and knowing there are sounds of voices inside. Other thoughts of past thoughts arise that are like a recording, playing back thoughts of the day, and they aren't mine either. Feelings of love start arising and memories of my partner arise around which there's some sense of self. Then I notice that's just a thought and go back to letting experience flow through.

Thank you so much for reading this.
Love,
Robert

[poppyseed]

Hi Robert

Do you have any advice for becoming aware of underlying beliefs? Thank you for inviting me to continue reflecting on expectations. I can articulate another expectation or belief structure. I believe what's in line with the truth (including not-self) will appear with a reduced suffering context. I've noticed that the supports that keep suffering in place are the same supports that keep the subject appearing as separate from the object. I've also noticed that desires that come out of a feeling of lack (not having) keep the subject separated from the object of getting what it wants. So wanting and expecting something or anything is a self-structure. I have a belief that instead of having to drop all desires I look at areas in which a separate self might try to locate itself.

The point of this inquiry is exactly this – not only to see there is no self, but to learn how to distinguish between what is real and what is not (beliefs). I suppose it will make more sense later. However, it is important to approach this inquiry with a “beginner’s mind”, and see where it takes you, instead of having expectations of the outcomes :)

Thank you so much for reading this.

Thank you for your openness. It gives me an idea where to begin.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises and to ensure we speak the same “language”:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple, or any other object.



Have a look at an apple (object). When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[robebor]

Hi Rali,

Thanks so much for your fun experiment. I enjoyed this one!

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain,

right?

Yes I agree that looking in this case leads me to 100% certainty.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

When an apple is sitting on a table in front of me, it's just a color (maybe green) and a shape (a few inches). If I approach it, the shape will get bigger. Different colors will appear. I might see brown and yellow spots on it. It will change. It won't be the same apple. If I get really close to it, it might become just a green blur. Since it changes so much in shape and size, it may change beyond recognition. So at some point it may only exist in thought or memory that there is an apple on a table. In that case, it's just a label. I can come within a normal range of touching the apple. The sensation might be smooth or rough, or dry or wet, large, flat and indented on top, but if I close my eyes, I could mistake it for another smooth or rough, dry or wet object. So the mind is playing a trick on me, I think. I must be associating the sensation of touching it with the image, memory and thought of the apple. So again the touch and feel of the apple are unrelated to the image and thought of the apple. I can look into my desire for the sweetness of an apple, but that's based on a memory that evokes an expectation from the idea of eating the apple. When I eat it, the expectation disappears, the only experience is wet and sweet in the mouth. I may eat all of it, so none of it remains. My final way of knowing it as other than a thought or sensation was to open my mouth and take it in. At this point after it's eaten, it's no longer an apple. I destroyed even the label as an apple by knowing its taste. So I would say with 100% certainty that apple is a label, sensation, taste, etc. It can't actually be known. There is indeed never an apple in actual experience.

Love,
Robert

[poppyseed]

Hi Robert

Thanks so much for your fun experiment. I enjoyed this one!

I’m glad you are enjoying this :)

So I would say with 100% certainty that apple is a label, sensation, taste, etc. It can't actually be known. There is indeed never an apple in actual experience.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[robebor]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for another fun activity to do!

Clear?

Yes, that's clear to me that "apple" points to a thought/label that is a collection of seeing, smelling, touching, and tasting activities, and not to an object "apple."

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above.

Walking down steps in morning
Seeing legs and steps, simply= colors and shapes (seeing)
Smelling wooden steps, simply= wooden smell (smelling)
Feeling the foot, leg and hand sensations, simply= sensation (sensing)
Hearing the sounds of creaking floor boards, simply= sound (hearing)
Thinking about moving down steps, simply= thought (thinking)

Sitting and listening to a dhamma talk
Seeing computer screen, simply= colors and shapes (seeing)
Feeling sitting and listening sensations, simply= sensation (sensing)
Hearing the sounds of the talk, simply= sound (hearing)
Thinking about sitting and listening to a dhamma talk, simply= thought (thinking)
Thinking about meaning of dhamma talk, simply= thought (thinking)

Eating salad
Seeing salad, simply=colors and shapes (seeing)
Smelling salad, simply= smell (smelling)
Hearing the crunching of eating, simply= sounds (hearing)
Thinking about eating , simply= thought (thinking)

Sending you love!
Robert

[poppyseed]

Hi Robert

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

Smelling wooden steps, simply= wooden smell (smelling)

What makes the smell “wooden”? Is there an actual “wood” in it?

Sitting and listening to a dhamma talk

I thought we agreed on no teachings and special practices during the inquiry? I had it in my intro:

For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please, confirm if that is OK with you!

Seeing computer screen, simply= colors and shapes (seeing)

In the mean time, you put in a few places “colours and shapes” (even though the example says just colour), so let’s LOOK at this.
Are there many colours and shapes in seeing?
Which one of the following describes best DE:
1. I am seeing colour
2.seeing colour
3. seeing

Have a look at this abstract painting.


Seeing can be likened to an abstract painting and if you look at an abstract painting you start to see shapes etc within the painting itself. Those shapes aren’t really there…but they SEEM (appear) to be. So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist?

When you look at the painting…all there is, is the paint (i.e. seeing). The paint (i.e. seeing) is appearing exactly as it is… Can you see this?
Now look at this picture


When looking at this picture, thought automatically divides and labels colour into many different colours, then further names those colours into specific objects.

IGNORE ALL object labels and colour labels:-
Are there many colours? Or is there simply colour?
Is there an actual gap between the ‘trees’? Or is the gap actually colour?
Where does colour begin and end? In other words, can an actual dividing line be found between where one colour ends and another begins, or is that just a mental construct?
Love
Rali

[robebor]

Hi Rali, thank you for your good questions!

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It feels like there's no hook in the world to draw a "me" in. It feels freeing, easeful and relaxing to let go into actual experience.

What makes the smell “wooden”? Is there an actual “wood” in it?

The label "wooden" smell is merely aggregating seeing, smelling, sensing, all at the same time. Taken apart and outside of the thinking that connects all these, there is no reality "wood" or "wooden". That is, I agree there is no actual "wood" and there is no actual "wood" in the smell.

Please, confirm if that is OK with you!

That's OK with me. Can I ask you to apply AE/DE to a spiritual teaching? What happens when you actually look? Isn't there ultimately just hearing? Is there an actual "teaching" there? OK?

Are there many colours and shapes in seeing?
Which one of the following describes best DE:
1. I am seeing colour
2.seeing colour
3. seeing

I see what you're saying. I don't know about the label "best." However, I can see 1 and 2 do not actually describe what's occurring because there's no actual "I" and no actual "color." I can't say the seeing is actually "colorless". There's just the experience of seeing.

do the shapes really exist?

As I look at the painting, there are no actual shapes. Every shape I look at actually requires multiple lookings. I have to follow the edge from "one" seeing to the "next" and I'm relying on memory or a prior seeing to label it as a shape. When I pan out, I only see color. For example, I can't see the four corners of the room I'm in. My actual seeing is three walls. If I look further, there are no actual three walls.

Are there many colours? Or is there simply colour?
Is there an actual gap between the ‘trees’? Or is the gap actually colour?
Where does colour begin and end? In other words, can an actual dividing line be found between where one colour ends and another begins, or is that just a mental construct?

I can see there is simply color.
I don't see a gap, I only see color.
I see with soft eyes and a wide focus one color beginning and ending. With a narrow focus, I can trace a line between one color and another. However, it clearly is a mental construct!! I construct it based on a memory of narrow focused seeing events, all of which I completely invent and gather into one mind moment that I actually never see.

Thanks!
Love,
Robert

[poppyseed]

Hi Robert

It feels like there's no hook in the world to draw a "me" in. It feels freeing, easeful and relaxing to let go into actual experience.

Wonderful! Keep it going! You can give me a single example with each reply just to keep the momentum going

I see what you're saying. I don't know about the label "best." However, I can see 1 and 2 do not actually describe what's occurring because there's no actual "I" and no actual "color." I can't say the seeing is actually "colorless". There's just the experience of seeing.

Well, there are some labels that are more accurate than others. In reality they are all empty of inherent existence. However, if I call a flower “an umbrella” you would think I’m crazy :)

I see with soft eyes and a wide focus one color beginning and ending. With a narrow focus, I can trace a line between one color and another. However, it clearly is a mental construct!! I construct it based on a memory of narrow focused seeing events, all of which I completely invent and gather into one mind moment that I actually never see.

Great! Actually this is a good time to look at the idea of focus and attention… What exactly is focus – wide or narrow?

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does. Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?

LOOK carefully! What is focus/attention? Is focus like a torch? Do “things” sit in the dark and wait to be illuminated? How is this known or is it assumed? How is focus different from labelling/thinking exactly?
Love
Rali

[robebor]

Hi Rali,

Thanks again for the great inquiry questions.

What exactly is focus – wide or narrow?

You didn't highlight it as a quote. So I wasn't sure whether to answer or not. Honestly, it's hard to articulate. It feels like something layered on top of an awareness that is already there. I used to say there are two types of focus --wide and narrow. But on close inspection I think there's just awareness and the narrow or wide focus is just a type of labeling. Maybe I wasn't supposed to start the inquiry here, though.

Do you move it, or it moves by itself?

I kept focus on focusing and felt very concentrated because no distractions arose. I then waited to see if there would be movement spontaneously. The focus moved on its own when a distraction came up. Then "I" tried moving focus from one object to another. I felt a tickle in a certain direction on my face and focus followed it. It felt strange because I clearly didn't move it. Then I tried moving it again, but focus followed a pattern of a movement that I've imagined before. So it felt predetermined. It didn't feel spontaneous. There was a label of being in a different place, but the experience relied on memory and there was no sensing of a "former" place after it moved. There was only sensing and a label of a "new" place. It was clear there was no "I" in control moving attention around. I looked but could only find more sensing. I couldn't find a mover nor a senser of movement. The mind would construct a point that focus was moving from and another point that it was moving to, but it was clear it constructed another point to see all those other points. So I looked for that point behind the observer, until it seemed futile leading to continue searching for another empty, constructed observer point. There was no ultimate mover behind everything.

Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?

Definitely when watching the breath there was no control or controller when the attention moved from sensing to seeing to hearing to more sensing. That's surprisingly clear!
Attention moves on its own. At times, it feels predetermined, drawn in and contracted by certain sensations. So it feels automatic and happening on its own.

Napping today.
Lying down on back, simply= sensations (sensing).
Tasting toothpaste (after just brushing teeth), simply= taste (tasting).
Eyes closed seeing a body lying down, simply= imaginations and images (seeing).
Hearing breathing, simply= sounds (hearing).
Thinking whether to get up, simply= thought (thinking).

Love,
Robert