The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I went through LU with Henry a few months ago under the name avva, but I still haven't had an experiential shift, so I am here again.

What are you looking for at LU?
I don't want to go through the same exercises again, but would like to dive deeper with a guide, if possible, please. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like to find where I am stuck/gone in the wrong direction, and correct my course.
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What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been on the path for about 7 years.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Admin note - link to previous thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9374

Ok, avva,

I don't want to go through the same exercises again, but would like to dive deeper with a guide, if possible, please.

Ok, no exercises.
Indeed, no plan.
We'll just go where I sense avoidance exists.
Avoidance of what? (rhetorical question) Avoidance of seeing and accepting what is actually happening for you. In you.
i promise to be ruthlessly honest and direct with you and would like that reciprocated. (please) This way I can relax in the knowing that you will always reveal how close we are to the limit of what you can bear.
i have read enough of your previous thread to imagine that I have an idea of 'where you are.' So I will presume that you have sufficient knowledge to know what I'm talking about.

I would like to find where I am stuck/gone in the wrong direction, and correct my course.

I imagine that you are just reading the wrong signposts.
The ones that you want all point inwards - not outwards.
i want you to make a couple of lists.
Both lists of characteristics that you imagine you might have when you wake up.
The first list of those that are important. Not negotiable. Mandatory.
The second more of a wish list.
Take your time. i don't mind if there are a few days between responses.

love

vince

Dear Vince,

Thank you very much for guiding me. :)

Ok, no exercises.
Indeed, no plan.

Thank you. Great.

i promise to be ruthlessly honest and direct with you and would like that reciprocated.

Yes, I will be honest.

i want you to make a couple of lists.
Both lists of characteristics that you imagine you might have when you wake up.
The first list of those that are important. Not negotiable. Mandatory.

Not resisting what is in any way - no push and pull - no more suffering.
Not believing (unconsciously) that I am the thinker, the speaker, and the doer - no control.
Not believing (unconsciously) that I am a separate person.
Having/Being unconditional love for everything and everyone.
Clearly seeing what I am and what reality is - at an unshakable, doubtless, intuitive level, not conceptually.

The second more of a wish list.

Being in the present moment most of the time.
Being peaceful and happy.

avva

Hi Vince
I think I was hung up on the “experiential” insight, but I realised all it means is that I looked and I couldn’t find the separate self. That’s it. I have absolutely no doubts about having no self. I had doubts about having seen through the self. But no more.
I guess my expectations were rather unrealistic. I was expecting some kind of a big change, when in fact it is a tiny shift in the way you see yourself.
I realise this is only the first step and more shifts will come.
Thank you for guiding me!
avva

I was expecting some kind of a big change, when in fact it is a tiny shift in the way you see yourself.

Wouldn't consider such shift as tiny, because it can change Your entire way of seeing events and how You react to them, so it's effects are actually huge!

Hi Chris

Thank you for replying.

There haven't been any big shifts here. No big energy release, no feeling lighter or liberated, no vivid colours or feeling more intimate with THIS, no seeing reality in a different way. No nothing. There's only an intellectual understanding and knowing that the thoughts I hear are not "me" talking. That the "I" is not the thinker and not the doer. When I catch myself believing thoughts, I add something like "These thoughts are just appearing in awareness - the "I" didn't produce them." Then a few minutes later I am planning what to have for dinner, then catching myself, etc.
I don't really understand what "experiential" realisation means.
avva

by ChrisPl » May 30th, 2024, 11:13 am

Chris, it is not appropriate to post in another's thread.
If you experience something viscerally when reading Avva's comment then I suggest that you bring it to your guide.
If on the other hand, it is a logical conclusion, then the only value in it is to see your relationship with your thoughts.

Thank you very much for guiding me. :)

No worries. As you can imagine by my slow response, it is difficult (at times) to respond every day. Be patient and maybe go over what we have already posted while you wait. ❤️

Not resisting what is in any way

Can you give me an experiential example of resisting? Is there one in recent memory?

no push and pull

I take what you mean by this, that there is some kind of effort exerted. Can you describe this?

no more suffering.

By suffering, do you mean the arising of unpleasant sensations? Where are they felt?

Not believing (unconsciously)

When you say "unconsciously", are you saying that you don't directly experience the belief, but that you use logic (mind) to deduce its existence?

Having/Being unconditional love for everything and everyone.

What is it that you experience that points you to this?

Clearly seeing what I am and what reality is - at an unshakable, doubtless, intuitive level, not conceptually.

Ha, this one cracked me up (lolof) The hilarity was provoked by experience here being so very different to that expectation.
Here, it is clear, very clear, that knowing vince and knowing reality is absolutely impossible.
Both of these live in my mystery bag.
the complexity of the organism and indeed everything is infinite. Way beyond what this puny human mind can comprehend.
It can still be a useful expectation though. Where did it come from? (rhetorical question)
Upon examination we will likely find that it is a version of what we don't want. Of what we find when we contemplate this area.
Can you describe what IS present when you consider what you & reality actually is?

Being in the present moment most of the time.

You are always in the present moment. It is impossible not to be, but... i guess that what you mean is a feeling of being connected with current experiencing. Write a line of two about this.

much love

vince

Hi Vince

Can you give me an experiential example of resisting? Is there one in recent memory?

Because my son is a chess fanatic I thought I would give it a go. I started playing chess with people online a few weeks ago. It was extremely stressful. Ego was constantly shouting “Danger! Danger!” It was fear of losing the game and losing face. Fear of everyone finding out that I am a lousy chess player because I am not very clever.
So I piled up more games. Now it is not so scary any more, but there are still unpleasant feelings associated with it.

No push and pull.
I take what you mean by this, that there is some kind of effort exerted. Can you describe this?

I meant by this that there would be no resistance to what is – just total acceptance. Nothing to push away, nothing to pull to me. Simply being content with what is, realising that it cannot be any other way.

By suffering, do you mean the arising of unpleasant sensations? Where are they felt?

By suffering I mean resistance to what is. Resistance to unpleasant feelings. Unpleasant feelings are always felt in my stomach – a kind of sick feeling, wanting to vomit.

Not believing uncounsciously
When you say "unconsciously", are you saying that you don't directly experience the belief, but that you use logic (mind) to deduce its existence?

No. I consciously believe that there is no separate self, that the “I” is not the thinker and not the doer. I am assuming though that I must believe the “I” to be the thinker and the doer unconsciously, because I often catch myself believing thoughts and that I thought them, and I often catch myself believing I am the doer.

Unconditional love
What is it that you experience that points you to this?

When you love everything unconditionally – there is no resistance to what is.
When you love everyone unconditionally – you want nothing from them in exchange.
In my experience, the mind is perceiving the “me” slowly progressing in this direction. The heart opening to what is, and opening to everyone unconditionally. It feels like there is nothing else but love. That everything else is unimportant.

Ha, this one cracked me up (lolof) The hilarity was provoked by experience here being so very different to that expectation.

I am glad I contributed to your happy mood. :)

Knowing myself and reality
Where did it come from?

What I meant was clear seeing of what is – that there is no self and reality is not what I thought it was. Teachers often talk about an intuitive knowing that is beyond doubt.
I had a 3-second glimpse 4 years ago in which I clearly saw that I had no identity, that the Adrienne character didn’t exist. I knew it beyond doubt. But ego quickly shut it down out of fear.

Can you describe what IS present when you consider what you & reality actually is?

There are sense perceptions and thoughts, and the capacity for sense perceptions and thoughts. There is also a sense of “I am”.

Being in the present moment.

When I meditate, I am able to concentrate on the sense perceptions rather than the thoughts for longer periods. Also at other times during the day. I find it difficult to do that though when I am with others or when I am doing a task that requires thinking (like this one).

love

avva

Good evening Avva, What you are going to get from me is the first thing that comes to mind. i don't censor it or even consider it (usually) It just comes out. i have learned to trust it. It's not always right, but mostly is.
What comes up when reading your first response is the need (your need) to learn how to examine.
Let's look at this;

Now it is not so scary any more, but there are still unpleasant feelings associated with it.

Are those unpleasant feelings what you refer to as resistance?
What you seem to be telling me is that there are sensations (like fear) and there are stories about what others will think of you. "not very clever".

I meant by this that there would be no resistance to what is – just total acceptance.

Ah, so are you saying that there is a should lurking somewhere? That what is experienced should be different?

Simply being content with what is, realising that it cannot be any other way.

Contentment will follow the acceptance without contentment. As you get more relaxed about what life offers, contentment will be seen.

Unpleasant feelings are always felt in my stomach – a kind of sick feeling, wanting to vomit.

So you've swallowed something that you can't stomach. It needs to be expelled.
What belief? Whose belief? have you adopted even though it goes against your instincts?

but that you use logic (mind) to deduce its existence?

No. I consciously believe that there is no separate self, that the “I” is not the thinker and not the doer. I am assuming though that I must believe

You said "no", but do you see that it is a mental conclusion? "assuming that I must believe"

I often catch myself believing I am the doer.

what happens when you see that?

It feels like there is nothing else but love

This is true, but to experience this we need to escape from the conceptual world that still has a bit of a hold on us.

I am glad I contributed to your happy mood. :)

So am I, but you missed the point of sharing that with you.

Clearly seeing what I am and what reality is

Both "what I am and what reality is", can't be seen clearly as it's beyond this puny human mind to comprehend. Both these remain a friendly mystery.
i have no questions. i do have curiosity, but no knowledge.

Teachers often talk about an intuitive knowing that is beyond doubt.

That's a bit close to woo woo stuff. i only see beliefs here.

I knew it beyond doubt.

..and you still know that you knew it. Can you remember the feeling?

There is also a sense of “I am”.

Is this another mind fart?
There is a sensation (sense) of something and there is a mental conclusion that this must be me. Can you see this?

It's no appropriate to do that under those circumstances.
When you are with someone else, you are fully with them and have no self reflection going. ..or do you?

with love

vince
I find it difficult to do that though when I am with others or when I am doing a task that requires thinking (like this one).

Hi Vince

What you are going to get from me is the first thing that comes to mind. i don't censor it or even consider it (usually) It just comes out. i have learned to trust it. It's not always right, but mostly is.

That is fine with me.

Are those unpleasant feelings what you refer to as resistance?

What I mean by resistance is the wanting to push away situations and emotions.

What you seem to be telling me is that there are sensations (like fear) and there are stories about what others will think of you. "not very clever".

Yes, I realise that they are just stories, just thoughts appearing to no-one about no-one. The wanting to push the feeling/situation away is still there.

Ah, so are you saying that there is a should lurking somewhere? That what is experienced should be different?

What I was saying was that after awakening there won’t be the wanting to push away anything because it will be seen as delusional (that is how the mind imagines it).

So you've swallowed something that you can't stomach. It needs to be expelled.
What belief? Whose belief? have you adopted even though it goes against your instincts?

That there is a me and that me is not good enough.

You said "no", but do you see that it is a mental conclusion? "assuming that I must believe"

Yes, I see that. But what’s wrong with that?

what happens when you see that?

A thought appears that says: “This was just a thought appearing in awareness. The “I” didn’t think/do that”.

So am I, but you missed the point of sharing that with you.

Was there a point other than how ridiculous my idea sounded to you?
Yes. It was frightening. I thought I was going mad.

Is this another mind fart?

Yes. It all is.

There is a sensation (sense) of something and there is a mental conclusion that this must be me. Can you see this?

I can see that it is just a habitual thought.

It's not appropriate to do that under those circumstances.
When you are with someone else, you are fully with them and have no self reflection going. ..or do you?

What I meant was that attention can be fully focused on thoughts instead of listening to the other person.

avva

Good day Avva,

What I mean by resistance is the wanting to push away situations and emotions.

Ok, i get it.
Now let's not use the word resistance for the moment. If we refer to the "wanting to push away" let's do it directly.
..and when we do this we have what appears to be a contradiction. We desire (wanting) to repel (push away). If we go back to the original statement, That you don't want to want to push away..
If we examine this then we see that the pushing away (of situations and conditions) is secondary. What is primary is the wanting to not want.
No, that's not right. You don't want to want.
How do you experience "don't want"? Look to feelings for the answer. Not thought. Use thought only to communicate a description.
Say the words "don't want" repeatedly (aloud if convenient) and watch for sensations in the body. Describe what appears.

after awakening there won’t be the wanting to push away anything because it will be seen as delusional

Notice in this statement that the "it" (seems to) refers to the "situations and conditions", whereas above the focus shifted to the "Not wanting".
Also notice that "because it is delusional" is a thought derived reason. (and remember that any thought conclusions are always a distraction. (just notice them. don't try to stop them)

(that is how the mind imagines it).

This is a good recognition.

That there is a me and that me is not good enough.

Do you think that when the me goes that the "me is not good enough" will go too?
Is it possible that the feeling of "not good enough" isn't directly connected to the Me? (could they exist side by side) i'm not asking for any absolute answer. Just what intuition says. (and you'll likely find that in the first thoughts that appear)

But what’s wrong with that?

Thoughts aren't trustworthy. Their motives are corrupt. ..but that doesn't mean that they aren't occasionally useful. They are not an enemy.

I often catch myself believing I am the doer.

what happens when you see that?

A thought appears that says: “This was just a thought appearing in awareness. The “I” didn’t think/do that”.

This is important.. Where did that thought come from? Is is a mental conclusion based on second hand knowledge or is it expressing a recognition. ..again consult intuition for a feeling.

Can you remember the feeling?

Yes. It was frightening. I thought I was going mad.

Oh wow. There is some juice here. Let's come back to it..

What I meant was that attention can be fully focused on thoughts instead of listening to the other person.

Ok, got it..

much love

vince

Dear Vince

Here are my answers. I am so happy that you are my guide!

How do you experience "don't want"? Look to feelings for the answer. Not thought. Use thought only to communicate a description.
Say the words "don't want" repeatedly (aloud if convenient) and watch for sensations in the body. Describe what appears.

There is an unpleasant feeling in the stomach area. There is a feeling as if I am on the verge of crying. The feeling that I can’t handle something.
What you’re saying is that I am resisting my resistance to what is. Just changing one resistance for another resistance. Is that correct?

after awakening there won’t be the wanting to push away anything because it will be seen as delusional
Notice in this statement that the "it" (seems to) refers to the "situations and conditions", whereas above the focus shifted to the "Not wanting".

The “it” refers to “the wanting to push away things”. The focus is still on not wanting to want to push away things (resisting resistance).

Also notice that "because it is delusional" is a thought derived reason.

Yes.

and remember that any thought conclusions are always a distraction

Distracting from feeling our feelings?

Do you think that when the me goes that the "me is not good enough" will go too?

It might not go with it, but it might be seen as ridiculous.

Is it possible that the feeling of "not good enough" isn't directly connected to the Me?

How do you mean? Interesting thought.

This is important.. Where did that thought come from? Is is a mental conclusion based on second hand knowledge or is it expressing a recognition. ..again consult intuition for a feeling.

It feels like a mental correction that comes after falling into the trap again.
Was there a recognition or is it just an adopted belief?
I have no doubt about there being no separate self. Mainly because of my short glimpse. But this glimpse was not a recognition, meaning it wasn’t fully integrated into the mind. The conscious mind took it on board as an adopted belief, but there is something here that keeps falling into the trap of thoughts. There is a knowing, though, that is beyond the mind, that has no doubt about it. What is believing thoughts? Is it just another thought?

I also realised that I haven’t been fully feeling my feelings. Henri (my previous guide) kept telling me “Just feel your feelings!!”, and I thought I was. But I watched one of Pernilla’s videos in which she says that you can’t be in the head and in the body at the same time. I realised what I was doing was I was thinking about feeling my feelings but not really feeling them. There were thoughts that were saying “I am allowing this feeling. This feeling is welcome. This feeling can stay as long as it wants to”, thus staying in my head with these thoughts instead of just feeling the feeling without thinking.

avva

I have read this on Kevin's page (https://www.simplytheseen.com/5-practic ... quiry.html):

"4. Thoughts Are Not The Problem

Daily life is a world of signs and symbols. At a conventional level, a “frying pan” must at some level be allowed to be just that if you intend to make dinner, and a “green light” must be taken as just that if you want to safely cross the street. When fully awake, all of these designations will still be just as useful as they are today, though eventually you will stop assuming or believing that a word or thought refers to anything in particular. Thoughts about “me”, and about something that “I” have or am, are signs and symbols that also seem to refer to something in particular.

As a result, each time the thought of a “self”, or a “reason to react” arises, it betrays the fact that at some level you really do assume and believe there is something to which those words refer. If you deconstruct what is happening into merely thoughts and sensations, the tendency can be to tell yourself “oh, that’s just a thought about a self”, by which you may dismiss the fact that you nevertheless still believe there is a “self”. Or, you might essentially talk yourself out of the inquiry altogether by concluding that since everything is just thoughts (and sensations), there’s nothing to actually look at or for.

Instead, you can take advantage of thoughts during inquiry, in that each and every time a thought about the focus of inquiry (a self, a “reaction trigger”, a subject, etc.) arises, that shows that the belief is still in place. Neuroscience has shown that there is a several hundred millisecond delay between something happening and a corresponding thought about it. Thus, if the thought arises that there is a “self” or “subject” that is participating in experience, the assumption or belief has already “happened” or manifested, and you are only finding out after the fact. It is only when the fetter is completely gone that the thought no longer arises - in a way, that is one of the more conclusive ways to know if a fetter is gone or not. In other words, the thought about a “self” or a “subject” wouldn’t arise unless the corresponding assumption or belief has already been activated."

This is what I have been trying to communicate. The underlying belief in a self is still there.
avva

Hi Avva,

There is an unpleasant feeling in the stomach area. There is a feeling as if I am on the verge of crying. The feeling that I can’t handle something.

This is good. You described the location of the sensation. Then described what it felt like. Then intuited what it might be about.
Now, we can take this to the laboratory and use it to explore some fetter 5 stuff.
You can use that same question to recreate the feeling. Then focus on the physical manifestations of it. (the sensation)
As you approach it, watch for any inclination to avoid getting closer to the sensation.
Don't get too close to the sensation and don't get seduced away from it by stories (thoughts) Just hover and look to see if the sensation has any inherent message or instruction, of if it is just sensation.

What you’re saying is that I am resisting my resistance to what is. Just changing one resistance for another resistance. Is that correct?

There is that "don't want" that is a pushing away. Is there a judgement about that that says "I shouldn't be pushing away." Then there is likely a pushing away of the pushing away.
Either way they are an expression of something that got triggered. Just seeing this happen (the getting triggered) might be enough to dissolve whatever was being triggered. If it keeps coming back (if that sentence keeps evoking 'juice') then we might need to look deeper.

The “it” refers to “the wanting to push away things”.

Ok, got it. So the "wanting" is what will be seen as delusional?
isn't that already the case?
Can the pushing away and the not wanting to do this, is it possible that they might not be connected?

Distracting from feeling our feelings?

yes

Do you think that when the me goes that the "me is not good enough" will go too?

It might not go with it, but it might be seen as ridiculous.

..again, isn't it already seen as ridiculous?

Is it possible that the feeling of "not good enough" isn't directly connected to the Me?

How do you mean? Interesting thought.

We assume a cause and effect. A defective "me" might have a characteristic of feeling "not good enough", but it might not be this way. we only have speculation.
What is the "not good enough" feeling (and text - story) existed independent of "me"? What if is was independently conditioned into the physical body. (which we know not to be "me".
What if they exist side by side and have no inherent connection, except what thought might believe.
If we define what we do know of a self, we have stories that describe characteristics and we have the experience of responding to them when conditions decree.
If one of those stories is that an inherent characteristic of that "me" is that it feels not good enough, then we have identification with that "me", via that belief.
If we imagine that that feeling (not good enough) was conditioned in at an early age, then there may be no memory of it at an intellectual level, but the body remembers.
If this is the case then we can assume that there was a story in play when the original conditioning happened. A story that we reacted to.
When that was happening we, in our naivety and innocence didn't have a perspective that provided us with tools to 'handle' in an adaptive way what was being thrust at us. We were (probably) in survival mode.
Now when we 'touch' this old conditioning, we bring with us a much more mature, experienced perspective.
This allows us to recognize that the fear that we have been responding to is out of proportion to the actual event.
It allows the fear to dissipate which in turn allows a closer inspection of that which we have kept away from for a lifetime.

It feels like a mental correction that comes after falling into the trap again.

When you say "it feels like"... is it a feeling or a mental conclusion?
A feeling is a sensation with stories that give it meaning. "feeling" is a label that both describes and adds to what is actually happening. (the conceptual bit)
To say "mental correction" is to imply that something was wrong and it required active interference to fix it.
What actually happened was thoughts arose saying the above. Nothing more - just the presence of thoughts with this content. Oh, actually there is more. That is the response to those thoughts. ..but that came after.

Ah, I just got your next post in...

Was there a recognition or is it just an adopted belief?

You will see by the results. Either way it doesn't matter. It will be gone/weakened or keep coming back. Whatever, it's an opportunity to look deeper.

I have no doubt about there being no separate self

Ok, I get it. ..but there still is 'evidence' that identification with a 'me' happens.
Is it possible that you see through the delusion of an existant self, and at the same time see indications that you haven't?
Now if you look at those indications and separate out the experiential and the conceptual...
What do you find?

I realised what I was doing was I was thinking about feeling my feelings but not really feeling them.

This is brilliant. Wow, what a revelation. This truly is a portal into a world of wonder. Contemplate the ramifications of this. Amazing. ❤️

Thoughts Are Not The Problem

Agree 100% Although it mischaracterized something to call it a problem, I get the drift. No, suffering arises from our relationship to them.

This is what I have been trying to communicate. The underlying belief in a self is still there.

That is just a thought conclusion. What is actually there?
What is the belief that there is a belief in a self?
What part is actual and what part is conceptual?

much love

vince

Hi vince,

Just hover and look to see if the sensation has any inherent message or instruction, of if it is just sensation.

At first the “I don’t want it” sentence felt alien and ridiculous. Then the more I said it to myself, the more I believed that there was something I didn’t want. There was a fire in the stomach, the heart began to race, and a cold stare came to my eyes. There was rebellion, resistance. It was an unpleasant feeling – so familiar. “Here we go again,” I thought, “I have to stand up for myself again.” Then the next thought: “I hate conflicts, but I have to be firm.” It was a sick feeling, as if I was forced to do something I hated. Then a crying voice appeared in awareness and a pillow onto which my tears were falling. Feelings of hopelessness and helplessness.

Is there a judgement about that that says "I shouldn't be pushing away." Then there is likely a pushing away of the pushing away.

Yes, there is a pushing away of the pushing away.

So the "wanting" is what will be seen as delusional?

Yes, the wanting to push away.

isn't that already the case?

Yes, it is. But deep down it’s not seen as delusional yet.

Can the pushing away and the not wanting to do this, is it possible that they might not be connected?

In the sense that I feel I have to change in a way to wake up (that is, I have to stop pushing away feelings/situations).

..again, isn't it already seen as ridiculous?

Yes, it is, consciously. But something deep down still believes it.

It allows the fear to dissipate which in turn allows a closer inspection of that which we have kept away from for a lifetime.

I’m not sure I understand all this. What I know is that there is childhood trauma in the bodymind with lots of stories about abuse, neglect, and abandonment. I realised I had childhood trauma only a few months ago. There are lots of painful memories, but I never thought much of them. I also realised that the “I am unworthy/not good enough” story was present and in close connection with the childhood trauma. In retrospect, it is clear how my whole personality was shaped around this underlying belief. It generated behaviour that replayed the very things I was trying to avoid. All my life I have been trying to prove myself worthy (which, in my case, means intelligent, interesting and lovable). It is also clear that I latched onto the idea of awakening to once and for all prove that I am worthy, although there is the belief deep down that I might not be worthy of awakening at all. Like a mantra I keep telling myself “acknowledge, accept, allow”.

When you say "it feels like"... is it a feeling or a mental conclusion?

It’s a mental conclusion.

Ok, I get it. ..but there still is 'evidence' that identification with a 'me' happens.
Is it possible that you see through the delusion of an existant self, and at the same time see indications that you haven't?

I see that the “I” is not the thinker and the doer (although the thoughts betray that deep down I still believe I am the thinker and the doer), but I find it difficult to see that the "I" is not the speaker/writer and that the "I" is not the experiencer. These might be the last missing bits.

Now if you look at those indications and separate out the experiential and the conceptual...
What do you find?

It all seems conceptual to me.

That is just a thought conclusion. What is actually there?
What is the belief that there is a belief in a self?
What part is actual and what part is conceptual?

It’s all conceptual.

avva