The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I know there is no separate self. I know that the sense of separation in created by thoughts upon thoughts. The window seems to pen to this awareness but then closes again and I am fighting to remember. In No Self (open window) it is obvious, in small self (closed window) I am trapped. 'No real- inherent self' means that there really in no one here

What are you looking for at LU?
A friend to help me remember the reality when the window seems closed. Also I would like some help with mind confusion when the window is open (I know there is no window but that is how it feels). When there is clarity there is a sense of confusion still, I see there is no small self, I feel the vast pristine clarity of that, and yet there is a sense of separation still. Logically I can see that if what I perceive as 'me' is infinite, then there must be no separation but that is not my experience. Basically there is a feeling of having worked so hard for so long, finally seeing the vastness of the Self, only to have it come and go and still be foggy.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Clarity, equality, curiosity, pointing. I am hoping to have someone walk beside me and show me how to focus/unfocus the lens so clarity can be revealed. There is a sense of disappointment, hopelessness, shame, anger, and deep frustration with seeking - all of which feel self indulgent, but there is still a knowing there is more and a sense of continuing to be called.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Decades of spiritual seeking in one form or another. Lately there has been a falling away of the intensity of that as the clarity of no self emerges. At the moment I am listening to Samuel Jacobs, Francis Lucille, Gangaji, Mooji, and reading Byron Katie, Papaji, Emmanuel. Spirituality is my life basically.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi Catherine,

I assume that's your name :) if not, please let me know what name you prefer me to call you.

My name is Vivien, and I haven't guided on this forum for years. But since you asked for me, I can make an exception :)

I don't want to provide a list of rules. There are just a few ones that would be beneficial for you if you could follow them:

- please always try to reply to your immediate and fresh experience. By fresh I mean what you can see right now, in this moment. Not what happened 2 weeks ago, or even yesterday.

- try to incorporate the questions I'm going to give you into your daily life. Sitting down and looking at the questions is one thing, but incorporating them into everyday life is another. It is huge. I mean the benefit can be huge.

- try to reply daily, however I might not be able to reply every day. But even that, please write. I'm asking this because this can help the momentum going, not loosing touch with the inquiry.

Using the inquiry until it's done it's job, and then a bit more, for a sake of developing new ways of seeing / being.

There is a sense of disappointment, hopelessness, shame, anger, and deep frustration with seeking

We can start here.

So there are these emotions present; and there must be some thought story about them present too. Otherwise, how could there be an emotion?
Just notice, what happens to these emotions if the thoughts about them are ignored or not taken seriously?

Also, if there is disappointment or shame (or.... ) then there must be someone there WHO IS disappointed, ashamed, angry, etc.
So look for that who, that person, someone that is HAVING these emotions. What do you find?

Love,
Vivien

Dear Vivien,
Firstly, Thank you for answering the call. I am very grateful to have you as a guide. I am living in Mullumbimby which is about 2 hours south of Brisbane and feeling close is nice.
I am happy to report on current experience, reply daily even if you don't/can't, and I am very willing to incorporate the pointings in life, not just looking at the questions. It is reassuring to know that we can work a little more after the job is done.
If the thoughts about the emotions of shame etc are ignored or not taken too seriously the emotions fade. I have been trying to remember to ask myself questions like that - 'to whom is the hurt arising?' and I am usually able to find, even if momentarily, that there is only emptiness, a no thing ness, clarity. Today I have been dropping in to a space of clarity too, no one is having the emotions, they are arising in space (or in The Knowing as Ilona puts it).
It feels as though something is happening as a result of being in the field of LU. Even after watching hundreds of Non Duality videos etc etc over the years, I find there is something very fresh here. No whizz bang states, just ordinary no separtation. There are glimpses of it, whiffs in the air, I catch it and then its gone....but not far!
I will keep looking for the 'who'.
x Catherine.

Dear Vivien,
Our communication has been very much on my mind today. Also I watched a video with you and Luchana (I'm guessing you are that Vivien?). I have been watching how the emotions come with a story and that creates a sense of I.
I also had an opportunity to work with shame today, watch it arise with some dread and fear, and then see that without an I there is only sensation and no story, no need to worry about future stories where I did the wrong thing/said the wrong thing and cringe etc....just freedom. And freedom to let the other party be, no need to excuse or adjust or need reassurance. Amazingly simple and natural.
In the video you discuss the expectation of seeing no self all the time once it's seen. I guess that is where I am at the moment. I can return to emptiness if I adjust the lens but also sometimes I can't find it at all. Is it a matter of continuing to practice seeing?

With gratitude and love (even though I don't know you I feel it!)

Hi Catherine,

am living in Mullumbimby which is about 2 hours south of Brisbane and feeling close is nice.

What a nice surprise :)

I also had an opportunity to work with shame today, watch it arise with some dread and fear, and then see that without an I there is only sensation and no story,

yes :) but even if the story went on... would that be a problem?

When any story is on (even if there is no emotional charge) you can look and see what that story belong to?
Scanning through the body for the owner.

Any moment, when it feels like that there is an I present, or that there is anything personal, scan through the body and then the mind if there is an actual person there whom that it is about.

Even small things are worth to look at... like when there is a pleasant feeling or thought of liking the coffee the body drinks, or a memory showing up about anything really.

Investigate both pleasant and unpleasant experiences. To see if there is anyone present they belong to, or anyone that they are about.

Pay attention to the body... scanning it for a person. Any feeling, mood or emotion that might feel personal.

Also I watched a video with you and Luchana (I'm guessing you are that Vivien?)

Yes, that's me.

In the video you discuss the expectation of seeing no self all the time once it's seen. I guess that is where I am at the moment.

Yes. Seeing it and fully embodying it are different things. For many people some emotional work is needed (when there is a recurring trigger, a lingering emotional wound or trauma).

Is it a matter of continuing to practice seeing?

Yes, but instead of doing it as a practice, why not live as that?

Look for the one that is practicing. Look at thoughts (so called mind), also scan the body for the sense of I, or the sense of doer.

I can return to emptiness if I adjust the lens

Well, what or who is it that is leaving then returning to emptiness?

Who is adjusting the lens?

Notice any sense of doership.... it can show up in thoughts (mind) and also in the body, as a sensation MISTAKEN for a doer.

With gratitude and love (even though I don't know you I feel it!)

Well, it's there for you to feel it :) Or there is no one separate from the feeling of gratitude who could feel it? :)


I think that this is plenty for now :) I have a tendency to ask too many questions. So any time if it feels too much, please let me know.

Also, you can also use the quotation, it can help when rereading the conversation.


Kindness,
Vivien

Hi Vivien,
I’m still learning to navigate this site, I don’t know how to use the quotation marks - and I just lost a whole post to you! Maybe it’s better on the computer rather than a phone.
I don’t mind lots of questions, my mind is spinning and I can only really take one or two on a day atm. I is a bit confronting having daily contact with you. It is very good bc it keeps me ‘on the hook’, no wheedling out or hiding. It feels like something is about to crack.
Scanning for the doer helped today. Glimpse of no self, no boundaries, just ever spontaneous life! But then the contraction and the sense of I returns. It feels huge to realise the no one is a self- not my kids, my mum, my boss….all just spontaneous life happening that the mind claims as I. Francis Lucille says it’s like the clown bowing, claiming the applause after the ballet! I am also watching the thoughts that get mistaken for the doer. It is so habitual! 😊

Hi,

I don’t know how to use the quotation marks

You can learn how to use the quote function by watching this youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc

and I just lost a whole post to you!

It is useful to press the "Preview" or “Save” button frequently, not to lose the already typed text. Or alternatively, writing the text somewhere else and when it is finished copy-paste here, and adding the quote function.

A third option is, when logging in, tick the box that says: “Log me on automatically each visit”. From this time on, every time you come to the forum, you’ll be automatically logged in, so you cannot lose what you write (hopefully).

my mind is spinning and I can only really take one or two on a day atm

All right, then I'll try to cut the questions down, but it will be hard :) but I'll do my best.

So I don't give you anything new yet, since there are lots of questions in my previous post.

I think I haven't mentioned it before, but always investigate each question in my posts. If it helps, I can highlight them by writing them in blue, so that can help to catch them easier. Let me know if you'd prefer that.

Posting the qus in Blue would be great thank you. I will investigate each one, I know they are so valuable. And I am very appreciative of your time and effort. Having daily access to you is amazing. Please just go for it with the pointers! It's good that my mind is spinning!

yes :) but even if the story went on... would that be a problem?

When any story is on (even if there is no emotional charge) you can look and see what that story belong to?
Scanning through the body for the owner.

Yes, but instead of doing it as a practice, why not live as that?

Well, what or who is it that is leaving then returning to emptiness?

Who is adjusting the lens?

Notice any sense of doership.... it can show up in thoughts (mind) and also in the body, as a sensation MISTAKEN for a doer.

Any moment, when it feels like that there is an I present, or that there is anything personal, scan through the body and then the mind if there is an actual person there whom that it is about.

Even small things are worth to look at... like when there is a pleasant feeling or thought of liking the coffee the body drinks, or a memory showing up about anything really.

Investigate both pleasant and unpleasant experiences. To see if there is anyone present they belong to, or anyone that they are about.

Dear Vivien, These qus are pointing to and helping notice the 'prior to a thought' which I haven't investigated before. Becoming aware of no doer and seeing that the thought is after the knowing. I said this yesterday but the awareness is increasing. Resting in the knowing/prior to is helping too. I am very grateful for your time and I don't expect answers to all my posts. I am writing this incase I am on the wrong path with it. I will continue on today with your qus.Have a lovely Saturday! x

HI Vivien,
I hope you're having a lovely weekend.
I am scanning for a doer, looking for the I, a lot of anger and frustration are arising with a story of being tired of seeking, but also awareness that the story isn't belonging to a me. That feels like some freedom.
I've seen that there are zoom groups on LU. Are they open to anyone or are they only something some guides do for their guidees? If not though, how can I attend one? Since you haven't been on LU for a while I guess that you don't run any here.
Do you do any sessions - group or 1:1 in person or on line? out side LU?
I'm not in a position to pay you at the moment but it would be something to work towards perhaps.
Meanwhile chopping wood and carrying water by asking and scanning for "Is there a doer?"

Hi Catherine,

I've seen that there are zoom groups on LU. Are they open to anyone or are they only something some guides do for their guidees? If not though, how can I attend one? Since you haven't been on LU for a while I guess that you don't run any here.

Sorry, but I don't really know. I haven't been actively participating in LU for years.

Do you do any sessions - group or 1:1 in person or on line? out side LU?

I do online sessions, but those are paid sessions. There are more details in the link to my website you can find in my signature.

Resting in the knowing/prior to is helping too.

Now look at this.

What or who is it resting in the knowing?

When anger is there, who is it that is HAVING anger?

WHOM anger is happening to?

Thank you for directing me to your site. I may book down the track.

What or who is it resting in the knowing?

When I look at this question I feel a sense of dissolving. Maybe then resting 'as' the knowing is more accurate.

When anger is there, who is it that is HAVING anger?

The anger is physical, feet, jaw, hands, belly, neck....with accompanying stories about I. But when scanning the body and mind a me to whom it is happening cannot be found. Just sensations and thoughts.....strong sensations, repeated thoughts but no me to whom they are happening. But they are happening in this body not someone else's body so they are happening to someone or perhaps somewhere.....I guess that's why people say 'here' rather than 'me' eg "What's happening here is...."
Somewhere along the way I heard about experiencing sensations without using the map of the body, that has helped a lot. So the answer is 'no one is HAVING the anger, there is anger but not a one having it.' This answers the third qu too. it isn't happening to anyone. It just is and then isn't. Wow! The more we look the more obvious it seems. There is only Rest in Knowing, anger as it is felt as body mind sensations, and no one there having it. Wow! When it is looked at like this the middle man is erased, kapoot! :-)

Hi Vivien,
Today the focus has been continuing to stay on 'who is feeling this feeling/thinking this thought?' The experience feels spacious and empty. When I look at the photo of you on your website (don't worry, I'm not stalking you) I see your emptiness too, or rather I see emptiness in your eyes. I suppose that's true of everyone but this evening it was that picture particularly.
The story of "I'm never going to get this" arises and falls, I ask "who is it that is never going to get this?" and emptiness answers. We are like flowers, growing, opening, blooming, dying, decaying with no individual - like all of life.
These thoughts come and go. To whom are they arising?

This enquiry with you, this daily contact here is helping a lot.

I hope I'm not posting too much (suddenly there is contraction, pressure, quick typing, thoughts, shame....)....but slow down... "who is hoping?" "who is feeling shame?" There is no one behind the scenes - it was a thought arising, sensations, fear that's all! Gosh. Glimpses of the totality of this come and go.....
xx

Hi Catherine,

No, you are not posting too much :) don't worry about that... but if worry arises, just look and see (just as you did) what is REALLY going on.

Can you see what this separate self is made of?

What are those things (elements) happening in experience that are habitually MISTAKEN for a self/me/Catherine?

We are like flowers, growing, opening, blooming, dying, decaying with no individual - like all of life.

Yes. :) So the question is:

Can you find an entity, a separate self, called Catherine inside the body?
Look around especially in the chest, throat and head. What do you find? Can you find an isolated individual there?

Thank you for the reassurance re not posting too much Vivien.

Can you find an entity, a separate self, called Catherine inside the body?
Look around especially in the chest, throat and head. What do you find? Can you find an isolated individual there?

I find nothing at all! Where am I then? What am I then? There are no borders. It seems I am the knowing of sensations and experiences. When I notice that there is no Catherine here there is a slight shift in perception, not anything identifiable in the senses but somehow, when there is no 'me' a clarity arrives, a closer intimacy with everything happens, some sort of inclusion with everything. And a hollowness, the sounds happening are more intimate, more immediate.

Can you see what this separate self is made of?

Thoughts and sensations and habit and conditioning. I can't say what it is that has been conditioned but the patterns are strong. They can be very strong. I'm trying to catch them in flight and yes, no matter how strong the feelings are there is still no 'me' feeling them. Right in this moment there is no separate self and that is clear. The separate self is an illusion, it is nothing at all.

What are those things (elements) happening in experience that are habitually MISTAKEN for a self/me/Catherine?

The "I" thought eg "I am walking" "I am tired" "I love my kids". "habitually' is the right word! It is such a habit I can't imagine it going away. But it is true that whenever I look I can see there is no entity. People reinforce the separate self mistake all day long too. They are looking at me as a separate entity. Then there are 'my' responsibilities, my financial situation, my job, my car.....my life. I know none of this is who I am but these elements reinforce the mistake.
x