LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I see issues with saying everything that is relative is unreal. Does all interpretation because it requires a point of contrast mean nothing is “real” if so why is one concept more unreal than another?
What are you looking for at LU?
A stable reference point to offer a mirror that might reflect possible blind spots or areas that are difficult to address due to point of view so that the awareness from identifying issues can allow focused consideration .
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
An interaction in an effort to provide clarity through feedback. Sorting out these popular ideas of radical nonduality and some of the contradictions with the fundamental basis of it. It seems many are promoting basic meaninglessness.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I wasn’t intentionally seeking anything and had a spontaneous awakening followed by seeking to understand it.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?'
11
Define real
Re: Define real
My name is Gunnar - I’d be happy to guide you.
Disclaimers & FAQ:
- Please read LU’s disclaimer here: [http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/](http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/)
- Please read “Liberation Unleashed is not…” in LU’s FAQ here: [http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/](http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/)
- You may like to write your response first in Docs or Word and then copy it over to the site's text editor. It is common to lose paragraphs of writing due to random site time-outs. I've never had this issue. I just make sure I have stable wi-fi.
Agreements together:
- The momentum of inquiry is important. **Post at least once a day or every second day.** If you need more time or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know. I will do the same.
- Please do not hold anything back: what you tell me is what I use to point you. 100% honesty is very important. **If you have difficulty expressing anger, fear, guilt or shame, just do your best and we can work from there.**
- When answering questions, don’t answer from memory, **look into your immediate, direct experience: smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts (not the content of thoughts).** Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
- Throughout this exploration, I would like you to **answer questions that I have written using the quote function:** [https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ](https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ). Even if a question seems redundant at times, it has a purpose. The identity structure is fickle but quite simple in how it functions. So trust the process even when it feels like you’ve ‘already looked there’. If it has a question mark, give it a response!
- **Please put aside all other teachings** (videos, books, teachers, etc) during this period together. Direct all your focus into the inquiries we’re exploring. If you have a daily meditation practice, I encourage you to continue it.
Do these agreements work for you?
By what name shall I call you?
If this feels like a good fit for you, please share more about your 'spontaneous awakening'. What happened? When did it happen? Is any part of it still with you?
As for now, do you have any expectations around what 'awakening' is or what it will look like for you?
Cheers,
Gunnar
Disclaimers & FAQ:
- Please read LU’s disclaimer here: [http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/](http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/)
- Please read “Liberation Unleashed is not…” in LU’s FAQ here: [http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/](http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/)
- You may like to write your response first in Docs or Word and then copy it over to the site's text editor. It is common to lose paragraphs of writing due to random site time-outs. I've never had this issue. I just make sure I have stable wi-fi.
Agreements together:
- The momentum of inquiry is important. **Post at least once a day or every second day.** If you need more time or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know. I will do the same.
- Please do not hold anything back: what you tell me is what I use to point you. 100% honesty is very important. **If you have difficulty expressing anger, fear, guilt or shame, just do your best and we can work from there.**
- When answering questions, don’t answer from memory, **look into your immediate, direct experience: smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts (not the content of thoughts).** Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
- Throughout this exploration, I would like you to **answer questions that I have written using the quote function:** [https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ](https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ). Even if a question seems redundant at times, it has a purpose. The identity structure is fickle but quite simple in how it functions. So trust the process even when it feels like you’ve ‘already looked there’. If it has a question mark, give it a response!
- **Please put aside all other teachings** (videos, books, teachers, etc) during this period together. Direct all your focus into the inquiries we’re exploring. If you have a daily meditation practice, I encourage you to continue it.
Do these agreements work for you?
By what name shall I call you?
If this feels like a good fit for you, please share more about your 'spontaneous awakening'. What happened? When did it happen? Is any part of it still with you?
I love this train of thought. As we explore direct experience together, you may find yourself naturally digging into these inquiries.I see issues with saying everything that is relative is unreal. Does all interpretation because it requires a point of contrast mean nothing is “real” if so why is one concept more unreal than another?
As for now, do you have any expectations around what 'awakening' is or what it will look like for you?
Cheers,
Gunnar
Re: Define real
“Do these agreements work for you?”
Yes
“By what name shall I call you?”
Ppl call me Liz if it were a thing that happened
“please share more about your 'spontaneous awakening'.“
It seems as though there’s technicalities. Which part? The first peak experience? Or ? There are many but 3 I would put in the peak category . And please clarify “awakening” by your terms.. there are many different views on what qualifies
Yes
“By what name shall I call you?”
Ppl call me Liz if it were a thing that happened
“please share more about your 'spontaneous awakening'.“
It seems as though there’s technicalities. Which part? The first peak experience? Or ? There are many but 3 I would put in the peak category . And please clarify “awakening” by your terms.. there are many different views on what qualifies
Re: Define real
Hey Liz,
Sweet, let's do this.
And a reminder from the first post: Throughout this exploration, I would like you to **answer questions that I have written using the quote function:** [https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ](https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ). Even if a question seems redundant at times, it has a purpose. The identity structure is fickle but quite simple in how it functions. So trust the process even when it feels like you’ve ‘already looked there’. If it has a question mark, give it a response! :)
Oh, and a quick question about this:
-------------
Let's set the foundation here with some simple exercises to make clear what we're talking about here when we say direct experience:
This is how we will LOOK for the separate self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:
Colored Socks
There is a big difference between knowing that there is no separate self entity vs. seeing it firsthand in experience right now.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference. And that you really look in the exercises together.
Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. This is not an intellectual process or understanding.
We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..
Direct or Actual Experience is
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
-----
Gunn
Sweet, let's do this.
And a reminder from the first post: Throughout this exploration, I would like you to **answer questions that I have written using the quote function:** [https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ](https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ). Even if a question seems redundant at times, it has a purpose. The identity structure is fickle but quite simple in how it functions. So trust the process even when it feels like you’ve ‘already looked there’. If it has a question mark, give it a response! :)
How about the quick version, like 2-3 sentences. What happened? What was gleaned?“please share more about your 'spontaneous awakening'.“
It seems as though there’s technicalities. Which part? The first peak experience? Or ? There are many but 3 I would put in the peak category . And please clarify “awakening” by your terms.. there are many different views on what qualifies
Oh, and a quick question about this:
Do you have any experience in spiritual teachings, communities, meditation, etc.?What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I wasn’t intentionally seeking anything and had a spontaneous awakening followed by seeking to understand it.
-------------
Let's set the foundation here with some simple exercises to make clear what we're talking about here when we say direct experience:
This is how we will LOOK for the separate self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:
Colored Socks
There is a big difference between knowing that there is no separate self entity vs. seeing it firsthand in experience right now.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference. And that you really look in the exercises together.
Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. This is not an intellectual process or understanding.
We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..
Direct or Actual Experience is
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
-----
Gunn
Re: Define real
It was like I broke it I started crying then I decided to meditate. It was maybe like the life review during an NDE except I could just see all the layers on layers that was “me” and how none of it cared at all about my well being just how it looked or being liked or pride and ultimately it was me ruthlessly hurting myself for no real reason like they say you are your worst enemy . I kind of came to opened my eyes and everything was just different, I didn’t know why my fave was wet. I was breathing differently and I couldn’t use the word “me” fir a long time and finally had to make myself over time because that caused issues w communication.How about the quick version, like 2-3 sentences. What happened? What was gleaned?
I didn’t then at all. I was meditating and decided to immediately address it any time something I reacted strongly or was triggered. Now I am in groups, practices, and networks.Do you have any experience in spiritual teachings, communities, meditation, etc.?
I understand but does this mean I should deny the existence of other life and and minimize or dismiss any significant importance it has?Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Re: Define real
Liz,
And how are things now related to this 'me' or using that word?
What prompted you to ask this? I'm having difficulty seeing the connection to the exercise or understanding the context of your writing.
-------
Here's another exercise I'd like you to do:
So the primary colors are: red, blue, and yellow. They are primary because every other color can be created out of them. Purple, for example, is just red and blue. Orange is just yellow and red.
**Experiences can be broken down just like colors can. As we've discussed, every experience can be broken down into the six “primaries”: image/color, sound, smell, taste, sensation, and thoughts.
Here's an exercise that I would like you to try now and throughout the day if you'd like. Label daily activities simply image/color, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
_Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought_
Now break down some examples of objects, emotions, and daily activities into DE and report them here in the same structure as above.
-----
Gunn
Mmm. Thank you for sharing. Powerful.It was like I broke it I started crying then I decided to meditate. It was maybe like the life review during an NDE except I could just see all the layers on layers that was “me” and how none of it cared at all about my well being just how it looked or being liked or pride and ultimately it was me ruthlessly hurting myself for no real reason like they say you are your worst enemy . I kind of came to opened my eyes and everything was just different, I didn’t know why my fave was wet. I was breathing differently and I couldn’t use the word “me” fir a long time and finally had to make myself over time because that caused issues w communication.
And how are things now related to this 'me' or using that word?
.Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
I understand but does this mean I should deny the existence of other life and and minimize or dismiss any significant importance it has?
Re: Define real
What prompted you to ask this? I'm having difficulty seeing the connection to the exercise or understanding the context of your writing.
-------
Here's another exercise I'd like you to do:
So the primary colors are: red, blue, and yellow. They are primary because every other color can be created out of them. Purple, for example, is just red and blue. Orange is just yellow and red.
**Experiences can be broken down just like colors can. As we've discussed, every experience can be broken down into the six “primaries”: image/color, sound, smell, taste, sensation, and thoughts.
Here's an exercise that I would like you to try now and throughout the day if you'd like. Label daily activities simply image/color, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
_Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought_
Now break down some examples of objects, emotions, and daily activities into DE and report them here in the same structure as above.
-----
Gunn
Re: Define real
Hey Liz,
Checking in, are you still interested in this process together?
Gunnar :)
Checking in, are you still interested in this process together?
Gunnar :)
Re: Define real
So sorry .. I do apologize.. I had / have an abscessed tooth and have been trying to get it extracted and we had a pipe break during the freeze so .. sorry
It’s fine it took awhile before I didn’t hesitate to say it but there isn’t much occasion as a literary tool anyway..And how are things now related to this 'me' or using that word?
Because dismissing anything that isn’t within immediate experience or is conceptual therefore the one flat and Australia’s because no direct experience of it”
“What prompted you to ask this? I'm having difficulty seeing the connection to the exercise or understanding the context of your writing.”
Re: Define real
break down some examples of objects, emotions, and daily activities into DE and report them here in the same structure as above
Sun bright
Blanket warm
Heater shhhhhhh sound
Clock 6:30
Thought wake Asa up
Food hot
Tooth pain
Taste water
Hear phone
Cold outside
See car Grey
Hear engine
Eyes tired
Release muscles
Relax
Warm bath water
Lavender smell
Feel wetness
Wash baby
Re: Define real
Liz,
This, here, now, IS ALL YOU HAVE, and is all that is truly real to you in a sense. Over time, we break the illusion to the thought world that always wants go back to the past and forward to the future and live there. So, it's important we still use those concepts to navigate our complex world, but to know they are just thought images / concepts and not reality.
Please look at this exercise again and do another two examples for anything happening right now in the same format I have it in.
A reminder from an earlier writing to you:
-------------
Pz,
Gunnar
Life happens, you're okay. Hope you're feeling well!So sorry .. I do apologize.. I had / have an abscessed tooth and have been trying to get it extracted and we had a pipe break during the freeze so .. sorry
I agree. No need to diminish things not within immediate experience. If you have children, even when they're not there, I hope you're able to think of them as 'real' and plan / coordinate / take steps to care for their wellbeing. That said, when they are not around and you are thinking of them, it's important to notice that the image you have of them in the mind is not real. Is that mental image of them who they really are?Because dismissing anything that isn’t within immediate experience or is conceptual therefore the one flat and Australia’s because no direct experience of it”
This, here, now, IS ALL YOU HAVE, and is all that is truly real to you in a sense. Over time, we break the illusion to the thought world that always wants go back to the past and forward to the future and live there. So, it's important we still use those concepts to navigate our complex world, but to know they are just thought images / concepts and not reality.
The important thing here is to name what's happening in direct experience without all the interpretation we're used to overlaying on it. For example, there's the sun and the body feels sensations and has a visual experience. Where does that turn into bright or warm? The heater is making a sound. Where does that turn into a shhhhhh sound? Is it a shhhh sound in direct experience, or just sound? The thought overlay comes and says, 'oh ya, that's a shhhh sound'. Is it really? Or for when you write tooth pain, in DE, is it pain or just sensation?Sun bright
Blanket warm
Heater shhhhhhh sound
Clock 6:30
Thought wake Asa up
Food hot
Tooth pain
Taste water
Hear phone
Cold outside
See car Grey
Hear engine
Eyes tired
Release muscles
Relax
Please look at this exercise again and do another two examples for anything happening right now in the same format I have it in.
A reminder from an earlier writing to you:
Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. This is not an intellectual process or understanding.
We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..
Direct or Actual Experience is
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
-------------
Pz,
Gunnar
Re: Define real
Hi..! Sorry.. a lot of things happened then .. the truth is my kids got sick then after that I did .. and… see, when all this all this energetic and consciousness stuff happened initially. How do I say this?.. I started being able to do “things” and it can get de-calibrated (if that’s a word) when something is off in my system ?.. it can get weird and end up like a spiritual bypassing negative feedback loop.
Re: Define real
Hey, Thats okay Liz, life happens.
Also, if you are still looking to take up this dialogue and exploration with someone, please let me know. If so, I will be bowing out as my life circumstances have changed since we first messaged and I am no longer able to converse.
Blessings :)
Gunnar
I don't know what you mean by do 'things' and this spiritual bypassing negative feedback loop you speak of. I'm curious.see, when all this all this energetic and consciousness stuff happened initially. How do I say this?.. I started being able to do “things” and it can get de-calibrated (if that’s a word) when something is off in my system ?.. it can get weird and end up like a spiritual bypassing negative feedback loop.
Also, if you are still looking to take up this dialogue and exploration with someone, please let me know. If so, I will be bowing out as my life circumstances have changed since we first messaged and I am no longer able to converse.
Blessings :)
Gunnar
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