Beginning Anew

[OpenAwareing]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? Thoughts, emotions, sensations come and go. They are perceived, or cognized. Yet when I look to find a being that did the seeing, I can't find one.

What are you looking for at LU? Freedom. Internal freedom. Seeing clearly the nature of self. Practices and/or contemplations that support this. Perhaps a sense of community. Perhaps a group of people to practice with, if this is available.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I have no particular expectation. I'm here to see what is available, and to see if it is useful. I would expect helpful questions and prompts, not lectures, not dogma, and not advice. I would expect to not be judged.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Decades of zen, quite a few years of Vipassana, many 7 day and 10 day retreats, two or three years of inquiry. I really enjoy inquiry.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Elad]

Hello, my name is Elad and I would be happy to do this exploration with you, if we see that it makes sense. Please read and respond to the following points.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know or ask questions, if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.

What may I call you?

Warmly,
Elad

[OpenAwareing]

Hi Elad,

You can call me Eric. I have read, and agree to, all the links you provided.

Can you tell me where and how to change my password?

Thanks,

Eric

[Elad]

Hi Eric, all right. I think if you click on your name in the top right corner it will take you there re password. Not sure. Otherwise, please look for admin to help with tech questions.

Let's start: What does Eric or "I" or "the self" refer to in your direct experience?

[OpenAwareing]

What does "I" refer to, in direct experience?

There is no direct experience of I, or self. Whenever "I" look, I don't find anything.Thoughts without a Thinker, as they say. Yet the sense of self persists, even in the absence of direct evidence for it.

This "Not a thing" that I find I call awareness. I call awareness in the absence of an object to be aware of, my self.

[Elad]

Okay. Now please look very minutely at this *sense of self* in direct experience (from now DE). What do you see/discover?

[OpenAwareing]

It comes up most clearly when I get triggered. "You did this to me" is a common story, accompanied by anger and hurt. There is a rush of energy. Sometimes I can actually experience it as a wave of energy, arising and eventually falling away. There are accompanying body sensations as well.

This combination of story, emotion, and body sensation all collude to create the sense of a self.

There are many more subtle situations in which the sense of self arises- it happens constantly. But this is the easiest to identify because it is so strong.

[Elad]

All right. I want to suggest you focus attention only on direct experience here and now when answering me. Don't share ideas based on past observation and thinking about patterns, that puts you into a mode of identification with thought.

1) What does the sense of self refer to here and now?

2) Is any of what it refers to a self?

3) Is self or I referring to anything real here and now?

[OpenAwareing]

Sensations and emotions arise here, in this body. Recognition of these things is also happening here.

The sensations are not self. The emotions and thoughts are not self. The body is not self.

This sense of self refers to the fact that they are happening here.

I feel an itch in my nose. You don't feel it. It is felt here, in this body, by this body. The awareness of sensation is real and is happening here and now.

[Elad]

Sensations and emotions arise here, in this body. Recognition of these things is also happening here.

The sensations are not self. The emotions and thoughts are not self. The body is not self.

This sense of self refers to the fact that they are happening here.

I feel an itch in my nose. You don't feel it. It is felt here, in this body, by this body. The awareness of sensation is real and is happening here and now.

Can you see that all this is mediated by thinking? Not just direct experience here and now.

It's good clear thinking conventionally speaking, the kind of thinking good science and philosophy is made of. The conventional level will not go away and your capacity for clear thinking will continue to serve you in normal life. We are not here to get rid of any of this.This kind of mixing thinking and observing to formulate observations of patterns across time will probably not wake you up. It keeps you in the realm of identification with representations.

Another answer would be that a conventional separate self sense does exist for practical purposes, but if you feel a need to wake up, it's probably because on some level you don't just relate with this as pattern displays in the whole (right hand, left hand, blue, red, you, me - conventionally separate and without separate self or inherent nature or essence) but on some level experience it as if this conventional separate self sense is a real ultimately separate self that is who you are.

So for now let's stay with that you saw that there was no separate self in any of the components of the sense of self.

Keep looking to see that whatever feels like self is not. In direct experience, conviction doesn't matter much.

Furthermore:

Do you control the movement of thought?

Do you control attention?

Do you control what sensations and feelings are experienced?

Do you control movement?

Don't answer from ideas based on past observations. Look only in direct experience NOW.

Please look at each question separately. And please be aware what you answer me is secondary to the primary thing: you looking and looking with these pointers until the self illusion is seen through.

[OpenAwareing]

I do not see that all this is mediated by thinking. I am not arguing here. Just saying that I don't see what you are pointing to. I don't know how not to think. I don't know what a response would look like that doesn't involve thinking.
--------------------------------
I do not control the movement of thought. Nor do I control attention, nor the sensations or emotions that arise.

However, some movements seem to be under my control. In response to your query, I think, "ok, I'll raise my right pinky finger". And then I do. Is this control?

[Elad]

"I do not see that all this is mediated by thinking. I am not arguing here. Just saying that I don't see what you are pointing to. I don't know how not to think. I don't know what a response would look like that doesn't involve thinking."

You are right the moment we speak we are using concepts and direct experience is not that. So this is in that way a paradoxical process. What I want you to look for when I point out your thinking rather then just direct experience, is that you use arguments rather then only share here and now observation. You might answer "but so do you". Which in a sense is true. However, we have two different roles here. Your role is to look look look with pointers until insight dawns and describe as close as you possibly can to direct experience. My role is to point in ways that might help you see the patterns that are seemingly being believed.

"I do not control the movement of thought. Nor do I control attention, nor the sensations or emotions that arise."

Right on.


"However, some movements seem to be under my control. In response to your query, I think, "ok, I'll raise my right pinky finger". And then I do. Is this control?"

Conventionally speaking we could say yes. However on deeper looking as you said, the thought to raise the arm was not controlled by you ("I do not control the movement of thoughts"). So do you actually control any movement?

Look at how things move - sensations, movements, thoughts. Is any of them controlled by a separate agent? Is there a separate agent to be found anywhere?

[OpenAwareing]

There is no separate, controlling agent. At least, I can't find one.

[Elad]

There is no separate, controlling agent. At least, I can't find one.

Good. Now look: is there anything in DE that doesnt take optimal care of itself? Check with:

1) breath

2) Body comfort

3) making a choice that matters

4) social interaction

Only DE observation

[OpenAwareing]

These things all take care of themselves.