The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand it as; someone pointing/guiding you to see the truth about yourself. To show whether you exist as we are taught to believe - and as we appear to be - or whether we don't exist at all.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'd like to clearly see the truth of 'me'. I understand conceptually that 'I' don't exist and that it's all a mental story, but I'm finding it hard to have a clear and direct experience of no 'me', or of no separation.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I know most of the theory and I've already practiced various techniques so I don't need to be taught from scratch.... I'm hoping for someone who can guide me past whatever blocks are preventing me from seeing the truth experientially. Someone who can point out what I'm missing. :)

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've read a lot of non duality / spiritual / truth seeking books. (a lot!) I've practiced the 'who am I?', 'what am I?' style inquiries. I've done a lot of clearing of old emotional traumas and investigating the beliefs handed down to me by society. (as well as my own invented beliefs!) I've tried different styles of meditation; sound current, natural, focusing on the nature of thoughts, single focus like the Zen 'Mu' meditation. I've had a lot of spiritual experiences but not a real shift in seeing that I don't exist etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi,

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

Some tips for using the forum:

- Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical issue.

- When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to begin, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?
2. How will you change?
3. What do you want or expect to be different?
4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

Enjoy! :)

Hi Henri,

Thank you for offering to guide me, my name is Aldo. :)

My answers are below:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?

Realistically I have no idea, I'm completely open to what it will be like. I assume
life will be smoother and easier, and my priorities, focus, and direction in life
may change.

2. How will you change?

I assume there will be more peace, calm, and a large weight lifted off my shoulders.
Hopefully I can relate to other people in the world in a more compassionate and
understanding way. And I hope I feel content and at ease.

3. What do you want or expect to be different?

I want a feeling of contentedness, freedom, and peace. An ease of being and a feeling
of connection to what is. A feeling of all the 'pieces' being in the right place instead
of fighting against each other. (if that makes sense!)

4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

Hopefully a constant sense of freedom / peace / contentedness. Even through
the trials and tribulations of life, a knowing or understanding of what I am in reality.

Thank you again for doing this Henri, I appreciate your time and effort! :)

Regards,
Aldo :)

Hello Aldo!

I assume there will be more peace, calm, and a large weight lifted off my shoulders.
Hopefully I can relate to other people in the world in a more compassionate and
understanding way. And I hope I feel content and at ease.

You know, sometimes it's simply everything that's going on now, but with no inherent self there.

All the emotions, tension, and drama can still be there. Seeing through the illusion of self is first awakening and so is only the first step.

I want a feeling of contentedness, freedom, and peace. An ease of being and a feeling
of connection to what is. A feeling of all the 'pieces' being in the right place instead
of fighting against each other. (if that makes sense!)

Makes sense, although sometimes the pieces fighting against each other are the pieces being in the right place :)

Hopefully a constant sense of freedom / peace / contentedness. Even through
the trials and tribulations of life, a knowing or understanding of what I am in reality.

A common theme in your expectations seems to be a certain feeling, so this is good to be aware of, because while there can be relaxation, nothing has to change. This is not a freedom from something, but freedom with everything.

The suffering is in the resistance to this moment. Now, your mind may think that all resistance will be dropped by seeing through the separate self, but that is unlikely to happen.

I'm focusing more on the negative here to counter-balance your expectations, because this is not about a constant sense of freedom or peace. That expectation is why so many people feel lost after first awakening when they still suffer.

The reason for looking at expectations is that if you are looking for a constant sense of peace and freedom, you will miss if a shift really happens, because rarely will your expectations be met.

Now, how familiar are you with direct experience?

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

1. You can think of the answer and try to remember

2. You can take a look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this :)

Hi Henri,

I hope you are well. :)

I have no ‘real’ expectations, I’m open to whatever awakening brings. But you asked 4 expectation questions so I had to write something. :) But I get your point; expectations can cloud your vision just like any other thought or belief.

Now, how familiar are you with direct experience?

For the last couple of months I’ve been trying to look only at direct experience. I’ve been treating my thoughts as passing clouds and trying not to get caught up in them. I’m starting to think that thoughts don’t have anything to do with reality.

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

Please let me know if you are clear about this :)

Yes, I understand. I agree totally.

Regards & Thanks,
Aldo :)

I have no ‘real’ expectations, I’m open to whatever awakening brings. But you asked 4 expectation questions so I had to write something. :) But I get your point; expectations can cloud your vision just like any other thought or belief.

Understood!

For the last couple of months I’ve been trying to look only at direct experience. I’ve been treating my thoughts as passing clouds and trying not to get caught up in them. I’m starting to think that thoughts don’t have anything to do with reality.

That sounds excellent.

So if I say that there is no inherent self, and never was, what comes up?

In other words, where are you 'stuck'?

Hi Henri,

So if I say that there is no inherent self, and never was, what comes up?

In other words, where are you 'stuck'?

I’m not sure where I’m stuck anymore. I listened to a video of Ilona’s a couple of days ago and it made it really clear where the separation between ‘the story of me’ and reality lies. It was late at night and I was driving home from my parents and it struck me really clearly.

I’ve been playing with it for a few days and noticed that when I go to self-reference ‘me’ it’s not there. The space that used to feel like ‘me’ is empty. Not so much empty as, more like an ‘energetic space’ or ‘spacious energy’. I can’t quite get the right words. It’s not like a ball of energy, but more an empty space that’s energetic.(?)

I’m not sure if that’s what we’re after, but it’s pretty amazing either way! :)

I still get caught up in being ‘me’ sometimes but I soon realise and notice that ‘me’ isn’t really there…

Aldo :)

That sounds great!

You may find these two videos interesting on the process of integration:

1. https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

2. https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

And we can keep exploring to further clarify.

Let's start with labels:

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

You may find these two videos interesting on the process of integration:

Thank you for these!

And we can keep exploring to further clarify.

Yes please. :)

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

They describe the concept of an apple, I guess based on past experience of apples.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

When just looking, then all you have is the visual accompanied by a thought that says it’s an apple.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

If you eat an apple; then thoughts will say it’s an apple based on the taste, texture, smell, etc. The thoughts and labels aren’t the apple but the sensations are real. But I guess the label ‘apple’ is only linked to the real sensations via thoughts which aren’t real. So technically, you can’t know an apple because it’s just a label – and a label or thought can never be real.

Aldo :)

If you eat an apple; then thoughts will say it’s an apple based on the taste, texture, smell, etc. The thoughts and labels aren’t the apple but the sensations are real. But I guess the label ‘apple’ is only linked to the real sensations via thoughts which aren’t real. So technically, you can’t know an apple because it’s just a label – and a label or thought can never be real.

Yes, and have you ever heard of someone biting into an onion when they had the flu (no sense of smell). The crunch and texture is said to be almost identical.

Now, here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Try your best to completely ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

Let me know what you find :)

Hi Henri,

I hope you are well. :)

Now, here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, to all of the above. I can see those clearly, but the below questions are a bit trickier.

Do you control where attention goes?

If I just watch, then attention goes wherever it wants. But if I decide to focus on Henri’s questions then it seems to be in ‘my’ control. But I have the feeling you’re going to say where did the thought, “I’m going to look at Henri’s questions” come from? LOL :)

If I keep really looking at this, will the sense of ‘me’ being the doer/thinker go away? I can clearly see there’s no ‘me’, but I still feel like I can choose & decide.(?)

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

Memory is a thought too! They seem to be ordered but it’s just another thought saying that it’s ordered. So, there’s no ‘me’ and no way to do anything even if there was... Quite bizarre and a little scary if you put it all together like that...

Aldo :)

Hello!

If I just watch, then attention goes wherever it wants. But if I decide to focus on Henri’s questions then it seems to be in ‘my’ control. But I have the feeling you’re going to say where did the thought, “I’m going to look at Henri’s questions” come from? LOL :)

Can you predict where attention goes before it moves?

When you say "If I decide to focus..." did you predict the thought and impulse to do that? :)

What often happens is we miss the initial impulse or thought, and then it feels like we are in control.

If I keep really looking at this, will the sense of ‘me’ being the doer/thinker go away? I can clearly see there’s no ‘me’, but I still feel like I can choose & decide.(?)

That is very likely to happen, yes. There's a belief that you can choose and decide. The more data that is gathered to show that that is false, the more the belief begins to wobble.

It rarely happens right away, so it takes repeated looking, which is what we will do.

Quite bizarre and a little scary if you put it all together like that...

It can be scary at first as the system adjusts, but it tends to pass as things find a new equilibrium, so try to welcome it and ride the wave as best you can.

Hi Henri,

Can you predict where attention goes before it moves?

No, the move is only registered afterwards.

When you say "If I decide to focus..." did you predict the thought and impulse to do that? :)

No, it only registers afterwards and is then claimed as 'my' decision.

What often happens is we miss the initial impulse or thought, and then it feels like we are in control.

Yeah, that's the sneaky one; the impulse a millisecond before it's claimed as 'my' decision.

It rarely happens right away, so it takes repeated looking, which is what we will do.

Awesome! Thank you. :)


Aldo :)

Now for the next day or so, take the previous exercise into daily life. It might be helpful to set a random alarm to remind you every hour or so. If you don't have a random alarm, you can use a regular one.

When the alarm goes off, or you simply remember, look at who/what is making decisions, moving the body, thinking, and so on.

Feel free to adapt this to whatever suits you, but stay focused on looking for the decision-maker or the feeling like you are making decisions.

Let me know if you have any questions. :)

Hi Henri,

Now for the next day or so, take the previous exercise into daily life.

Look at who/what is making decisions, moving the body, thinking, and so on.

Stay focused on looking for the decision-maker or the feeling like you are making decisions.

I’ve been trying to watch the ‘decision making process’ and I’m starting to see, I think. I can see the impulse that comes a millisecond before any action/decision. And I can see my mind grabbing that and calling it ‘my’ decision. But I’m having trouble seeing it all at the same time and fully realising what that means. A few times I came close, but I’ll keep trying…

The last couple of days the temperature has been around 40 degrees Celsius and my air-conditioner broke…..so I’ve had trouble focusing! :D

If I look directly and constantly at my thoughts they tend to go quiet or stop. Which makes this kind of ‘looking’ tricky. I need to get the knack of watching without watching!

I’ll keep trying. :)


Aldo :)