Hello

[hathor94]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
For me what I understand conceptually that there is no separate self or identified self, that my thoughts and feelings and reaction don't refer to real self, but this doesn't feel true in my experience I feel separate and there is a sense of me, but I can't find it.

What are you looking for at LU?
At LU, I am seeking the opportunity to asking questions and to find guide who could help me see what misconceptions or hidden beliefs and identifications I might have that prevent me from seeing through my sense of self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't have specific expectations, as I am unsure of what to anticipate. However, I am open to the possibility of gaining a clearer understanding and being directed towards aspects of self-inquiry that might have been overlooked or not fully explored.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I'm interested in the teachings of Fourth way and Non-Duality practices like self-remembering and self-observations, Divided attention, Sensing the body, self-inquiry, somatic inquiry and shadow work.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[JonathanR]

Hello Hathor94

I've just read your intro. I may be willing to guide you.

. At LU, I am seeking the opportunity to asking questions and to find guide who could help me see what misconceptions or hidden beliefs and identifications I might have that prevent me from seeing through my sense of self

I'd be very happy to offer to do the latter. I could ask you as series of questions that could potentially lead you to make your own discoveries. That is essentially what a guide at LU does. I may not have answers for you because you discover those for yourself. You do this by exploring your own immediate experience.

. I don't have specific expectations, as I am unsure of what to anticipate. However, I am open to the possibility of gaining a clearer understanding and being directed towards aspects of self-inquiry that might have been overlooked or not fully explored

Well, that's a very good and open way to start, so , if you are ready we can get started?

Warmly

Jon

[hathor94]

Sorry, I have missed your mail, thank you for replying.

[hathor94]

Is it okay to procced now? thanks.

[JonathanR]

Hello Hathor94,

I received your message and if you like we can proceed?

Jon

[hathor94]

yes we can proceed, thank you.

[JonathanR]

Ok, Hathor95,

Firstly, would you like me to call you by this name ir some other one?

In your introductory post you mentioned

I am seeking the opportunity to asking questions and to find guide who could help me see what misconceptions or hidden beliefs and identifications I might have that prevent me from seeing through my sense of self.

So first, do you have ideas about what those beliefs might be? How they might be presenting themselves? If you don’t then do not worry but if so please write about them here.

In these conversations it helps a lot to maintain a fairly regular exchange of posts between us. Daily is recommended but the main thing is to not leave many days between replies. I will try to reply daily, or nearly daily.

Now, I’ve a question for you:

What is your current understanding of what “you” are?

Love

Jon

[hathor94]

Hello Jon

You can call me Ramiz

So first, do you have ideas about what those beliefs might be? How they might be presenting themselves?

Right now, what seems to solidify a sense of self is the belief of separation and that present itself in a sense of subject and object, a sense of a dense contraction in the body and a feeling of mistrust of what seems to be outside the body.

What is your current understanding of what “you” are?

It seems like there two of me, a separate self and awareness of that separate self.

[JonathanR]

Hi Ramiz

Thanks for answering quickly.

Right now, what seems to solidify a sense of self is the belief of separation and that present itself in a sense of subject and object, a sense of a dense contraction in the body and a feeling of mistrust of what seems to be outside the body.

Thank you. That’s very helpful to know.

Ok, we can investigate identification with “I”, or “me” as imagined to be ‘in the body’. How? By examining the direct or immediate experience of the senses. This can be so revealing.

Conventionally it is said that “I see” and it is assumed that it is eyes , that are the body, that is “me” that is doing the seeing.

Right here and now the words on this screen are seen. What is the experience like? Is it an experience of “eyes seeing” or “the body seeing”? Or is it more like seeing just happens?

Don’t intellectualise this. Just notice what actually happens, what the experience is.

Let me know how you get in with this?


Love

Jon

[hathor94]

What seems to be an "I" in the body doesn't seem to be fixed. but it seems that there's always some sensation that feels like a center I'm seeing from usually in the face and throat area. It seems there's no inherent connection between the seeing and the sensation, but I haven't experienced the seeing separate from the sensation.

[JonathanR]

Hi Ramiz

What seems to be an "I" in the body doesn't seem to be fixed.

That’s very interesting. Did this come from trying the exercise I suggested?

but it seems that there's always some sensation that feels like a center I'm seeing from

Can a sensation speak? I mean, does a sensation tell you this, or is it thoughts that suggest this about a sensation?

but I haven't experienced the seeing separate from the sensation.

Now here it’s very important that I understand your meaning. Were you expecting a separation? Please say more about this specifically?

Thanks very much

Jon

[hathor94]

Did this come from trying the exercise I suggested?

I've been doing the "Where am I?" inquiry for a while now and I'm still doing it often.

Can a sensation speak? I mean, does a sensation tell you this, or is it thoughts that suggest this about a sensation?

No, a sensation can't speak. it's an interpretation but it seems to be applied all the time to the sensation.

Now here it’s very important that I understand your meaning. Were you expecting a separation? Please say more about this specifically?

it seems that if the sense of "I" in the body is an identification with a sensation. if that identification dropped, there's an assumption that the sensation doesn't have to be held as an anchor to other sensory inputs, but I don't know what that would feel like.

[JonathanR]

I've been doing the "Where am I?" inquiry for a while now and I'm still doing it often.

I see. That is interesting. Is this from an Advaita path?

It’s interesting to note that “Whete am I” ? Not only supposes that there is an “I”. But also that such an entity may be found in some place or space. The way it is phrased presupposes the existence of an “I” entity and that this entity is somewhere. Whereas there is actually no self.
We look to see that there is no self but it helps not to assume before starting that a “self” will be found.

No, a sensation can't speak. it's an interpretation but it seems to be applied all the time to the sensation.

Right. Sensation is experienced but interpretation, do you notice that that part is to do with thoughts? Thoughts that are in addition to the immediate sensation?

it seems that if the sense of "I" in the body is an identification with a sensation. if that identification dropped, there's an assumption that the sensation doesn't have to be held as an anchor to other sensory inputs, but I don't know what that would feel like.

This sounds like a reasonable speculation, especially if this is what you have read or heard. But as you say, it is an assumption. Perhaps there is truth in it? Perhaps not? But looking for a “self” and not finding one is something that can be done so that it becomes clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that one is not going to be found. There doesn’t need to be any belief or speculation about it once this is seen for real.



Love

Jon

[hathor94]

Hi Jon

I don't know what the origin of the inquiry question is. I just experiment with whatever resonates with me. I thought about that also that the inquiry presupposes the existence of an “I”, but sometimes I just feel inclined to investigate where is that sense of "I". I also use other inquiries as "What is this?", "What is not a thought?"

do you notice that that part is to do with thoughts? Thoughts that are in addition to the immediate sensation?

It seems that the interpretation and the sensation are kind of stuck together, I'm not able to make myself not to interpret the sensation. I had an experience with a sound where it seems that it has two different interpretations, and I was able to switch between the two and that was fascinating, but I wasn't able to hear the sound without one of the two interpretations. is it reasonable to have an expectation of feeling a sensation as a raw experience without any interpretations to conclude that there is no self?

Could you explain what the components of the illusion of the self are and what are the ramifications of seeing no self?

Thank you.

[JonathanR]

Hello Ramiz

. I thought about that also that the inquiry presupposes the existence of an “I”, but sometimes I just feel inclined to investigate where is that sense of "I". I also use other inquiries as "What is this?", "What is not a thought?"

That’s all very good.

It seems that the interpretation and the sensation are kind of stuck together,

A very interesting observation. Maybe they are in one very real sense?

But you are distinguishing interpretation from sensation, so I’m guessing that you see there is some difference? I mean, there is sensation and the interpretation or commentary seems to be something added on to it? Tell me if you do not agree?

I'm not able to make myself not to interpret the sensation

That supposes that thoughts are “yours”. Do you think thoughts?

is it reasonable to have an expectation of feeling a sensation as a raw experience without any interpretations to conclude that there is no self?

Well, we can definitely look at sensation a bit more to help on this score, but to be very frank with you ANY expectation tends to obscure a clear seeing that there is no self. Expectations are preoccupations at a mental level. We will get beyond that together.

I had an experience with a sound where it seems that it has two different interpretations, and I was able to switch between the two and that was fascinating,

This is really inteteresting. Let’s work with sound. But I’ll make some suggestions about how next time. I’d like to find out your responses to what I’ve written first,

Could you explain what the components of the illusion of the self are and what are the ramifications of seeing no self?

You will find out for yourself which is much better than my interpretation.

I hope you don’t mind but my guiding style is not to offer explanations but to point directly to the illusion, because direct pointing has the potential for revealing the illusion directly.

With love

Jon