The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Every thought, memory, imagination I as a person ever had about myself isn't real. The whole identity is built up by peaces of mind created stuff. Like papier mache. Beliefs that are not real when investigating them, all mind created. I have an understanding and recognition of this but not as a lived experience. I am identified with thoughts.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for guidance from a guide. How to unidentify from the person I've believed myself to be but deep inside knowing that there must be more to this than what it seems. I want total honesty and directness in pointings, someone who I understand and is clear in her/his communication. I want to awaken! I need guidance in this process, been walking in circles for long time repeating same patterns. I want very much to drop the mind identification. To be guided by someone who has already gone through the first three fetters would be helpful I think.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Is this a diffrent question than the one before? I am not seeing the diffrence between them. Direct pointings, clarity, seeing/understanding things from a diffrent way. I don't expect that things will "click" but if there could be some lasting changes with dropping identity, attachment to thoughts and sufferiing, allowing the toughts to be there without fighting nor believing them. If possible I like to resonate with the one guiding. I like honesty and directness. It would be great if the one guiding could see how I fool myself and chosing not to see certain things unconsciously. If the person also has own experience working with strong energies (in) the body it might be helpful.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I started more serously seeking for a deeper meaning with existence about 20 years ago. Years of studies to meditation and yoga teacher. Studying the Vedic scriptures, practicing non-dual shaiva tantra, non-dual shakta tantra, studying with several yogic masters in both India and Europe. They lead me to self-inquiry and Ramana Maharshi, Adyashanti, Angelo Dilullo. The big opener came many years reading Echart Tolle, realising it is not only me that have these kinds of longings and everything he talked about was one Aha moment after another...
For many years I did strongly and many hours of different kind of yogic practices which incl meditation and different other types of yoga, mostly pranayama, mantra, kriyas, layamovements, and asanas. Today my practice is much more subtle.
It is mostly meditation and self-inquiry. I started working with the fetters. I joined Pernille on Awakening Curriculum, I just had the first zoom meeting with Vince who also works with the fetters. I've been drawn to Todd Lent and want join his group sessions. Find his post on YT helpful. Recently I had a session with Violet Synergy by recommendation from Angelo.
My daily practice for more than 15 years have been and conscious bodily movements. This year I dropped all my teachers which I've been dependent and clinging on to and giving them the responsibility to get me enlighten. My realisation is that no one can, only me can realise me. That being said is that I don't want a teacher to get dependent on rather someone to point me to what is so obvious and right in front of me but I still cannot see it, if possible :)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi Gingerbella and welcome to the LU forum. I'm Sandra and I'll be your guide, if that's ok with you.
Thank you for your introduction, it gave me a sense of where you are in your path.

You've mentioned that you have been in a Vince's meeting, and you've also mentioned Todd, Pernille and Angelo Dilullo. I'm aware of what they do and it seems to me that all of them give pointers to the realizing that a separate self doen't exist. Well. Yes, I think they all do, each in it's own way.

Did you follow/tried any of their pointers to the seeing that a solid, independent, permanent self isn't real?

Looking forward to your answer,
Sandra

Hi Sandra and thank you for the welcome!

Yes I am working with the fetters and I find the guidance of Pernille and Todd very helpful. I also work with Todd on 1:1 sessions. Are you familliar with the Fetters? Is this the way you guide? I think it will be good for me to have a guide who is used to the fetters approach.

Did you follow/tried any of their pointers to the seeing that a solid, independent, permanent self isn't real?

There have been some recognitions and seeings that I am not the thoughts, beliefs or memories - but not a lasting awareness of that. I bounce back into the mind and identify with it. There was a profound expansion last week into something where there was clearly no self, no identification with thoughts, a feeling of coming home, that this is it and the thoughts could be in the background and it was clear I was not them, There was a knowing of absolutely certainty that "this" here all the time, even when I am not aware of it. Difficult to put it into words.

During daytime I observe thoughts arising, sensations in the body, the senses of hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting etc. Returning to the body instead of being in the chatterings of the mind, without being resistant of the thoughts. Then I forget all about it, bounce back and get caughted into the story of me.

I am wondering how I will get notified that I have a message from you? I thought that there would be an email sent but I could not find any, so by chance I looked into LU this evening and saw that you sent me one. Perhaps the best way is to daily check in here.

Hope to hear back from you soon!
Sari

Hi Sari! Thank you for your reply!

Yes I am working with the fetters and I find the guidance of Pernille and Todd very helpful. I also work with Todd on 1:1 sessions. Are you familliar with the Fetters? Is this the way you guide? I think it will be good for me to have a guide who is used to the fetters approach.

Yes, I'm familiar with the Fetters approach and with Pernille and Todd. I use the direct point approach to point to the seeing that a self isn't real. I think Pernille and Todd guiding is more about long term desidentification with patterns and beliefs of all kind.

There have been some recognitions and seeings that I am not the thoughts, beliefs or memories - but not a lasting awareness of that. I bounce back into the mind and identify with it.

It seems to me that there is a expectation here of reaching a permanent state of awareness of not being this or that? And also of not identifying with thoughts anymore?

There was a profound expansion last week into something where there was clearly no self, no identification with thoughts, a feeling of coming home, that this is it and the thoughts could be in the background and it was clear I was not them, There was a knowing of absolutely certainty that "this" here all the time, even when I am not aware of it. Difficult to put it into words.

I get it. These kind of experiences happen and they come and go. We aren't trying to know something, you already know everything you need to know to do this. This is about seeing what is here as it is.

During daytime I observe thoughts arising, sensations in the body, the senses of hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting etc. Returning to the body instead of being in the chatterings of the mind, without being resistant of the thoughts. Then I forget all about it, bounce back and get caughted into the story of me.

When you are observing, do you look for a self? This is our goal here. To see if there is a self.

I am wondering how I will get notified that I have a message from you? I thought that there would be an email sent but I could not find any, so by chance I looked into LU this evening and saw that you sent me one. Perhaps the best way is to daily check in here.

You should get a notification when I submit a post. Check if you have the option "Notify me when a reply is posted" on. This option is below the "post a reply" feature, in Options.

Looking forward to your answer,
S

Hi Sandra and thank you for your reply!

t seems to me that there is a expectation here of reaching a permanent state of awareness of not being this or that? And also of not identifying with thoughts anymore?

You are absolutely right. This is what has been the belief, until now when you asked me this question. Now I am not sure. The question itself made mind silent. Digging a bit deeper I see that there is a expactarion of reaching somewhere, and at the same time knowing that there is nowhere to reach. This creates frustration. Feelings of confusion of not knowing what to do/and not to do anything at the same time.... There is an expactation of being/becoming something, that there must be something else, I can see that. Like what is is not enough. Or that I cannot experience and accept it as "good enough." Then in the next moment when investigating for whom is it not enough? I see that these are only thoughts of the mind.

There is a longing for not identifying with the thoughts, I see now that is a thought too.

I get it. These kind of experiences happen and they come and go. We aren't trying to know something, you already know everything you need to know to do this. This is about seeing what is here as it is.

Thank you for reminding and claritying. It feels very freeing and at the same time there are thoughts that says that this is gonna be difficult for me, that I am not able to do it. Thoughts again....they seems sticky and often believed. I don't know how to see what is already here, as it is.

When you are observing, do you look for a self? This is our goal here. To see if there is a self.

I think this is one of the issues, I am all over in my investigations. This is why I am here to get direction and guidance. I am very glad you pointed this out. I do look for a self and when I cannot find it, when I come into this space of silence and stillness, the mind comes in and says that there is nothing here, there is a restlessness and a feeling of being bored, It feels like a wall of... nothing. And it seems difficult to keep the inquiry continuing from there... there is a forgetfulness of what to do next. I am not sure how to see if there is a self.

Hi Sari!

(...)there are thoughts that says that this is gonna be difficult for me, that I am not able to do it. Thoughts again....they seems sticky and often believed. I don't know how to see what is already here, as it is.

I think those thoughts may be a kind of defense mechanism that is trying to protect you. Protect you from the unknown and for stepping outside your comfort zone.

This is normal and to be expected. You are being asked to step outside your comfort zone, into the unknown. And you may be afraid of what may happen. But there is no need to be afraid or feel insecure. Seeing what I'm pointing at is similar to realizing Santa Claus isn't real. You see that a self is an illusion and that realization doesn't put anything real in danger because there isn't a self to be damage. Only thoughts about a self and those can't be harmed.

Let me know if fears get in the way of seeing so that we can deal with that.

Ah. This isn't difficult and maybe that's what seems to make it difficult. Expecting this to be difficult and out of reach.

You know how to see what is already here, as it is. You just need a little pointing into what to look for.

And to understand what it's meant by "seeing".

Seeing is using your senses here and now to observe. Not to think. To see. To observe.

You know if you are observing when your thoughts become descriptions instead of stories.

As you already know, you are in thoughs lalaland when you believe and identify with thoughts like "I can't do this.", "It can't be this simple!", "But if this is true, why is this still happening to me?", "I'm afraid of what may happen if I realize this", and so on (and on, and on, and on). The so compelling story of me, myself and I. I'm not saying this isn't okay, or that that you need to do something about this. If you notice you're in thinking mode while it's happening, and come back to seeing mode, that would be more than enough for what we are doing here.

Then there is the seeing. Seeing is all about describing. You get as close to what is going on now as possible. At the moment I can see hands typing, the screen, my living room, a cat in the cat tower. I can hear cars passing by sometimes and I can feel a contraction in my jaw and upper chest. This is a simplistic description of what I'm seeing going on at the moment.

We could deconstruct what i describe above but I don't think that's need. Plain seeing can be described with plain language, no need to go all nondual about it.

Let me know if you have doubts/questions about what I'm saying above.

I think this is one of the issues, I am all over in my investigations. This is why I am here to get direction and guidance. I am very glad you pointed this out. I do look for a self and when I cannot find it, when I come into this space of silence and stillness, the mind comes in and says that there is nothing here, there is a restlessness and a feeling of being bored, It feels like a wall of... nothing. And it seems difficult to keep the inquiry continuing from there... there is a forgetfulness of what to do next. I am not sure how to see if there is a self.

I suppose you are seated and in a kind of mediative state while you're doing this?
It seems you have a look, can't find a self, expect something to happen and when it doesn't you have doubts?
What are you expecting to happen?

Take care,
S

Hi Sandra,

I think those thoughts may be a kind of defense mechanism that is trying to protect you. Protect you from the unknown and for stepping outside your comfort zone.

This is normal and to be expected. You are being asked to step outside your comfort zone, into the unknown. And you may be afraid of what may happen. But there is no need to be afraid or feel insecure. Seeing what I'm pointing at is similar to realizing Santa Claus isn't real. You see that a self is an illusion and that realization doesn't put anything real in danger because there isn't a self to be damage. Only thoughts about a self and those can't be harmed.

Let me know if fears get in the way of seeing so that we can deal with that.

This resonates, that it is somekind of protection. I sense fear but cannot pin it down to what it says. What spontaneuosly comes up is fear of loosing control, which has been challenging throughout my life. I see tendencies of Autism in my behaviour and want things to be kind of predictable. I don't have a diagnose but there is for sure some degrees of it.
There is a feeling of safety when there are predictable routines and I like to do things in the same order.

There is a recognition of a life long story of not being safe, that the world is out to get me and I need to defend and protect my existence. That there is always a danger around the corner waiting to catch me.

I love what you say of there isn't a self to be damaged. This is kind of funny but there is still a part of me that obviously doens't beleve that to be totally true.

Ah. This isn't difficult and maybe that's what seems to make it difficult. Expecting this to be difficult and out of reach.

Exactly! If it is simple it becomes difficult. Simple for others seems to be challenging for me. There is an identification of not understanding things as others do easily. It makes me feel stupid, a bit slow in mind, and frustraded. I see that these are strongly believed stories I keep on telling myself. Things are so obvious but still I miss them. I don't see them. All mind created lalaland...

You know how to see what is already here, as it is. You just need a little pointing into what to look for.

And to understand what it's meant by "seeing".

Seeing is using your senses here and now to observe. Not to think. To see. To observe.

You know if you are observing when your thoughts become descriptions instead of stories.

Thank you! I am glad you are helping me to see what is ment. I've been observing and seeing just things as they appear today. Without thinking about what I see, creating stories about it. Then I find myself in the grip of the toughts and return to just that seeing. Over and over again. What comes up after some time is that it all seems very boring. Is this all that there is. Where is the mystery of things. I can see that there is a longing for something else to happen, something funnier, some drama or anything else. A feeling of being locked into a cage comes up and life seems a bit more dull.
Reminding myself to be more curious, see with openess and through the eyes of a child. Then I forget that too... until I return to seeing and observing things as they appear.

As you already know, you are in thoughs lalaland when you believe and identify with thoughts like "I can't do this.", "It can't be this simple!", "But if this is true, why is this still happening to me?", "I'm afraid of what may happen if I realize this", and so on (and on, and on, and on). The so compelling story of me, myself and I. I'm not saying this isn't okay, or that that you need to do something about this. If you notice you're in thinking mode while it's happening, and come back to seeing mode, that would be more than enough for what we are doing here.

Yes! i know lalaland very well. Sometimes I can catch myself while in it, sometimes I am not aware of until it fades away and there is a gap. A question that arose is why do I practice seeing mode? And what is it we are doing here? :)

I suppose you are seated and in a kind of mediative state while you're doing this?
It seems you have a look, can't find a self, expect something to happen and when it doesn't you have doubts?
What are you expecting to happen?

It is easier for me to investigate and doing inquiry while in stillness. When not much else is taking my attention. So meditations or a relaxed sitting position is when I usually do this.
I look and investigate where is the self. What is me? Is this thought me? Is this sensation in the body me? Is that silence, movement in the body, the seeing through the eyes who I am? When I cannot find any answer or something that feels fully as the me there is a stop of looking. It becomes still. I recognize that there is an expactation of something. Not knowing what. Something else than what is. What is - seems too normal, too obvious, too close, not mystical, not difficult to find. Surely what I am looking for is of pure lightness and shiny existence :)..... or anyway something diffrent than what is.
I don't know what the expactation is - more than what I think it should not be. Not this. Something else.

In gratitude
Sari

Hi Sari!

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate how honest you're being about what is going on with you.

What comes up after some time is that it all seems very boring. Is this all that there is. Where is the mystery of things.

That makes me think about those zoom calls where other people are sharing their "how amazing this is" view and I seem to be stuck in my ordinary view. This perspective is just a view, that may shift and change into something else, but it can feel very real, yes.

It's curious how you mention the need to be in control and wanting things to be kind of predictable and then you write that you would prefer this to be a mystery, unpredictable.

I look and investigate where is the self. What is me? Is this thought me? Is this sensation in the body me? Is that silence, movement in the body, the seeing through the eyes who I am? When I cannot find any answer or something that feels fully as the me there is a stop of looking. It becomes still. I recognize that there is an expactation of something. Not knowing what. Something else than what is. What is - seems too normal, too obvious, too close, not mystical, not difficult to find. Surely what I am looking for is of pure lightness and shiny existence :)..... or anyway something diffrent than what is.
I don't know what the expactation is - more than what I think it should not be. Not this. Something else.

It seems that while you are inquiring you get distracted by expectations, wants and needs? That's normal.

What do you mean by "I look and investigate where is the self."
What do you do exactly?
What do you mean by look?

Take care,
S

Hi Sandra,

Today examing the thoughts it became clearer of how much there is "I" in most of them... on diffrent levels. "i" am thinking this and that about xxx. I want this, I think this. It seems so overwhelming and difficult to change, to even accept that it is that way.
A persistant resistance to the thoughts, and in the back of my mind - there is blame, shame and judgement to this resistance. Resisiting the resistance. True insanity.

It's curious how you mention the need to be in control and wanting things to be kind of predictable and then you write that you would prefer this to be a mystery, unpredictable.

Very schizophrenic it seems. It doens't make sense at all. Controlled freedom ;) I want the mystical to be safe.... hahaha

What do you mean by "I look and investigate where is the self."
What do you do exactly?
What do you mean by look?

I cannot describe exactly what I do. It's more a process of turning the gaze inward so to say. When I say I look, it means I investigate inwardly for example when there is a thought arising saying I am gonna do this later today... I question who is this I talking to and who is it talking. If a sensation in the body arises the attention is put there and a "look" if the me can be found there. I don't know if this makes sense. I feel I overcomplicate things.

With gratitude

Hi Sandra,

Today examing the thoughts it became clearer of how much there is "I" in most of them... on diffrent levels. "i" am thinking this and that about xxx. I want this, I think this. It seems so overwhelming and difficult to change, to even accept that it is that way.
A persistant resistance to the thoughts, and in the back of my mind - there is blame, shame and judgement to this resistance. Resisiting the resistance. True insanity.

It's curious how you mention the need to be in control and wanting things to be kind of predictable and then you write that you would prefer this to be a mystery, unpredictable.

Very schizophrenic it seems. It doens't make sense at all. Controlled freedom ;) I want the mystical to be safe.... hahaha

What do you mean by "I look and investigate where is the self."
What do you do exactly?
What do you mean by look?

I cannot describe exactly what I do. It's more a process of turning the gaze inward so to say. When I say I look, it means I investigate inwardly for example when there is a thought arising saying I am gonna do this later today... I question who is this I talking to and who is it talking. If a sensation in the body arises the attention is put there and a "look" if the me can be found there. I don't know if this makes sense. I feel I overcomplicate things.

With gratitude

Hi Sandra,

Today examing the thoughts it became clearer of how much there is "I" in most of them... on diffrent levels. "i" am thinking this and that about xxx. I want this, I think this. It seems so overwhelming and difficult to change, to even accept that it is that way.
A persistant resistance to the thoughts, and in the back of my mind - there is blame, shame and judgement to this resistance. Resisiting the resistance. True insanity.

It's curious how you mention the need to be in control and wanting things to be kind of predictable and then you write that you would prefer this to be a mystery, unpredictable.

Very schizophrenic it seems. It doens't make sense at all. Controlled freedom ;) I want the mystical to be safe.... hahaha

What do you mean by "I look and investigate where is the self."
What do you do exactly?
What do you mean by look?

I cannot describe exactly what I do. It's more a process of turning the gaze inward so to say. When I say I look, it means I investigate inwardly for example when there is a thought arising saying I am gonna do this later today... I question who is this I talking to and who is it talking. If a sensation in the body arises the attention is put there and a "look" if the me can be found there. I don't know if this makes sense. I feel I overcomplicate things.

With gratitude

Hi Sandra,

Today examing the thoughts it became clearer of how much there is "I" in most of them... on diffrent levels. "i" am thinking this and that about xxx. I want this, I think this. It seems so overwhelming and difficult to change, to even accept that it is that way.
A persistant resistance to the thoughts, and in the back of my mind - there is blame, shame and judgement to this resistance. Resisiting the resistance. True insanity.

It's curious how you mention the need to be in control and wanting things to be kind of predictable and then you write that you would prefer this to be a mystery, unpredictable.

Very schizophrenic it seems. It doens't make sense at all. Controlled freedom ;) I want the mystical to be safe.... hahaha

What do you mean by "I look and investigate where is the self."
What do you do exactly?
What do you mean by look?

I cannot describe exactly what I do. It's more a process of turning the gaze inward so to say. When I say I look, it means I investigate inwardly for example when there is a thought arising saying I am gonna do this later today... I question who is this I talking to and who is it talking. If a sensation in the body arises the attention is put there and a "look" if the me can be found there. I don't know if this makes sense. I feel I overcomplicate things.

With gratitude

Hi Sari!

Today examing the thoughts it became clearer of how much there is "I" in most of them... on diffrent levels. "i" am thinking this and that about xxx. I want this, I think this. It seems so overwhelming and difficult to change, to even accept that it is that way.
A persistant resistance to the thoughts, and in the back of my mind - there is blame, shame and judgement to this resistance. Resisiting the resistance. True insanity.

Yes. Well, it is what it is. If you take ownership of thoughts processes that's the real insanity.

Very schizophrenic it seems. It doens't make sense at all. Controlled freedom ;) I want the mystical to be safe.... hahaha

Yes!

I cannot describe exactly what I do. It's more a process of turning the gaze inward so to say. When I say I look, it means I investigate inwardly for example when there is a thought arising saying I am gonna do this later today... I question who is this I talking to and who is it talking. If a sensation in the body arises the attention is put there and a "look" if the me can be found there. I don't know if this makes sense. I feel I overcomplicate things.

I would like you to spend some time looking outword. When you look to what surrounds you, can you see a self?

Approach this question like you would do if I was your neighbor and knocked at your door asking if my runaway cat is inside your house.

Look for a self like you would do to check if there is a cat somewhere or like you would do if your keys were missing.

Try to find this thing, this self.

Share how the seeking for a self goes,

Take care,
S

Hi Sandra,

I am not sure what you are suggesting?

I would like you to spend some time looking outword. When you look to what surrounds you, can you see a self?

Approach this question like you would do if I was your neighbor and knocked at your door asking if my runaway cat is inside your house.

Look for a self like you would do to check if there is a cat somewhere or like you would do if your keys were missing.

Try to find this thing, this self.

Is this something like walking around in my flat turning pillows upside down, opening lockers, looking under the carpet - trying to find the self?

Playing with this is seems a bit silly... looking at different items/things around me in my flat, asking myself "is that table myself?, is the self is in the chair over there? Is this what you mean?

A bit Confused
Sari

Hi Sari!

Is this something like walking around in my flat turning pillows upside down, opening lockers, looking under the carpet - trying to find the self?

If you believe a self could be in any of those places, that would be a direct way to check if that belief is real. When a child is afraid that there is a monster under the bed, the quickest and most reliable way to know if that belief is real is to look for the monster, under the bed. To look and see if it is there. Same here. If you believe there is a self somewhere, check if that's true.

Playing with this is seems a bit silly... looking at different items/things around me in my flat, asking myself "is that table myself?, is the self is in the chair over there? Is this what you mean?

Yes, it would be silly if you already know there isn't a self in those places or that is that thing you're looking at. I suppose that you have tried to do what I suggest? And that you've realized that in your direct experience a self can't be found and isn't a thing?

What are you trying or expecting to find?

What do you think a self is?

Take care,
S