The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
What I have learned is that we humans tend to identify the mind or the body (or both) with a "self" that is separate from everything else. That "self" is somehow different than others and the rest of the world, thus creating isolation/disconnection as well as leading to a lot of suffering. This process is about dis-identifying with those beliefs.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am hoping to solidify what I have had momentary glimpses of. I have been able to have a sense of the "aliveness" of everything and the beauty of everything when listening to Ilona's podcast and being able to simply bear witness to the miracle of everything. I have also been able to see how my thoughts simply pop out of nowhere, and that whether I like them or not, they are not really "mine" in the sense that I am choosing them. They just are. That was an interesting surprise for me - something I haven't really figured out when listening to other sources on the topic. It has at times brought a real sense of relief where I can just watch the thinking and let my mind do its thing. But I do at times find myself wondering about things like "who is choosing the focus of present moment? who is attending to feelings?" (e.g. from the podcast when Ilona talks about respectfully attending to feelings). So I still have a sense of a chooser (universal consciousness?) that is seeing/focusing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am hoping for some good questions and support for the stuck places that I am hitting so I can push over the edge and find more consistent rest in no-self. My instinct is that I should just notice the stuck spot and allow it (not need an answer), and notice that is the mind that is stuck, but I'm having some trouble letting go of wanting answers for a few things. I am also wondering about how to stay grounded in no-self early on. I feel very close given I've had moments of that awareness but I could use help figuring out how to sustain my awareness.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was raised Catholic, but have been spiritual starting in my 20's as the catholic religion didn't quite fit. I have been reading about mindfulness, eastern philosophies, and enlightenment off and on ever since college, but I have never quite "gotten it" until recently and found meditation to be enjoyable and a heightened awareness of "now" that is truly attractive. I was getting close, but Ilona's book/podcast definitely took my experience and therefore interest to a new level.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi,

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

3. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?
2. How will you change?
3. What do you want or expect to be different?
4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

Enjoy! :)

Hi Henri!

I would love for you to be my guide and am thankful for your offer - that seems especially appropriate given today is Thanksgiving here in the US - wondering where you might be! 😊

I will reply tomorrow. Excited to start this process with you as I feel somewhat transformed already and am wanting to develop my experience.

One easy question - is this thread public or private?

Best to you!

Katty

Hello Katty,

Happy Thanksgiving to you then. I'm in Finland.

This thread is public, so anyone can read it, if they happen to find it.

Looking forward to your answers!

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?

Objective life won’t change at all. I expect that situations will arise and fall away, emotions will come and go, and Katty will continue to do what Katty does. Also, other people will do what they do.

2. How will you change?

I will no longer be attached to outcomes (mine or others), knowing that life is just doing its thing. Loving consciousness (me) will just be along for the ride, experiencing what is. I will have let go of needing things to be a certain way (or trying to control them to make them a certain way) along with the idea that that is required for me to be at peace.

My experience (awareness) of life will be different as I will no longer be identified with or get hooked by the mind. Therefore I will suffer less (and at times, I know I already am!) I am aware that the mind is over-rated and that much of the mental chatter is not necessary, can be harmful, and generally takes away from presence in the moment. I would have more and more of that ability to be present without a lot of thought. I would have significantly less reactive thought, having clarified for myself that it is not helpful.

If I am happy, excited, mad or sad, those emotions will come up, I will feel them in my body, and I will let them come and go. I will notice any stories, but not automatically believe the stories about the past or future or any meaning making about the event that takes me out of the moment. I’ll be here, now.

3. What do you want or expect to be different?

If I change as I describe above, I will experience more peace, clarity, and presence. My mind will chatter less as I let go of identifying with it (particularly the reactive, defensive, self-referencing mind).

The area I am struggling with the most in at this point is if I don’t like something that my husband is doing that is making me angry and sad.

I have a recent example. He is addicted to his phone and has trouble managing that behavior from time to time. It is due to his own issues and I intellectually understand that it is his problem and had nothing to do with me. Emotionally however, it can be painful and stories come up that would have me take personally. There is a truth to face (for example, that he is unavailable or inattentive at times that I don’t like (e.g. spent a lot of time on his phone yesterday while at my parents house with my family). I experience flashes of anger.

If I get out of my mind and feel in to my body, the feelings dissipate almost immediately. However, the moment I stop focusing on my body or another sense the present moment in a very intentional way, my mind is back chewing on the “hurtful” behavior, and the feelings come back up. I can watch it, and know that is my mind doing its thing, but I have trouble de-identifying with the mind.

I can talk to him about it and he’s generally responsive to me. Last night he apologized. I then find myself conflicted, because factually and intellectually the moment has passed and the “problem” is gone, and yet the pain is still in my body in an unresolved way. But I find the same thing with the pain - If I look to my body, it dissipates and if I look away, it returns.

As I write this I realize in moments like there where my mind wants to hold on to something painful (to protect myself?), I get a little confused as to how to step back and be present with my experience without the sense that I am ignoring what happened.

4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

Two things stand out to me right now.

I drift in and out of being present. I’m getting better at being present, but it is still only about 5-10% of the time. I would like that number to grow considerably.

I would have a better sense of how to be present with myself and work with painful moments. I would know how to put loving consciousness on my organism (Katty) as she works through how she feels (thinks?) about a relational injury and decides what to do with it. I am a psychotherapist and couples counselor, so I have the belief that it is important to story feelings and share them with my partner in the service of our intimacy (and maybe, but not necessarily, his change). So I will be able to do that with greater ease and clarify and acceptance of what is.

Thank you for investing your time in me and reading this. It is much appreciated!

Under #3, the last paragraph wasn't clear and already my thoughts on it are shifting:

As I write this I realize in moments like this where my mind wants to hold on to something painful (to protect myself?), I get a little confused as to how to step back and be present with my experience (body, raw emotion). The emotion in my body dissipates quickly without thoughts and images.

I am recognizing that my mind has the idea that if I allow it to pass quickly, I am not "working it through." I am not sure what that looks like once awake. It has previously meant feeling into my body-mind experience and putting a clarifying story to it. What that would look like if I am awake and no longer identified with the mind - How do I make sense of my experience? Or do I no longer do that? If I don't do that, how do I communicate with my significant others so they know me?

Thank you for the answers!

I will no longer be attached to outcomes (mine or others), knowing that life is just doing its thing. Loving consciousness (me) will just be along for the ride, experiencing what is. I will have let go of needing things to be a certain way (or trying to control them to make them a certain way) along with the idea that that is required for me to be at peace.

It's very likely you will still be attached to outcomes, because usually after the first awakening, there is emotional work and reactivity surfaces (desire and aversion).

Some of it can definitely drop, but it's wise not to expect it. The body still has a lot of conditioning and trauma patterns.

I would have more and more of that ability to be present without a lot of thought. I would have significantly less reactive thought, having clarified for myself that it is not helpful.

Same here on reactivity.

Also good to be aware that this isn't about reducing thought, but the attachment to it.

The area I am struggling with the most in at this point is if I don’t like something that my husband is doing that is making me angry and sad.

I have a recent example. He is addicted to his phone and has trouble managing that behavior from time to time. It is due to his own issues and I intellectually understand that it is his problem and had nothing to do with me. Emotionally however, it can be painful and stories come up that would have me take personally. There is a truth to face (for example, that he is unavailable or inattentive at times that I don’t like (e.g. spent a lot of time on his phone yesterday while at my parents house with my family). I experience flashes of anger.

Yes, this is reactivity. Also this might be your shadow being externalized.

When you see him on his phone, you feel something, and you distract from it with something like anger.

If I get out of my mind and feel in to my body, the feelings dissipate almost immediately. However, the moment I stop focusing on my body or another sense the present moment in a very intentional way, my mind is back chewing on the “hurtful” behavior, and the feelings come back up. I can watch it, and know that is my mind doing its thing, but I have trouble de-identifying with the mind.

Yes, there is something that you haven't seen yet. Often the surface feelings and stories are only expressions/distractions.

I drift in and out of being present. I’m getting better at being present, but it is still only about 5-10% of the time. I would like that number to grow considerably.

I would have a better sense of how to be present with myself and work with painful moments. I would know how to put loving consciousness on my organism (Katty) as she works through how she feels (thinks?) about a relational injury and decides what to do with it. I am a psychotherapist and couples counselor, so I have the belief that it is important to story feelings and share them with my partner in the service of our intimacy (and maybe, but not necessarily, his change). So I will be able to do that with greater ease and clarify and acceptance of what is.

That's great that you're a psychotherapist+counselor.

So when you are fully present, what will happen that isn't happening now? Is it that you won't be so reactive?

Do you have a belief of needing to be a certain way? (non-reactive, loving, kind)

There's nothing wrong with that, but the moment you want to be a certain way, the suppression and pressure begins. Funnily enough, when this relaxes, there is more love and kindness, because it begins with yourself.

As I write this I realize in moments like this where my mind wants to hold on to something painful (to protect myself?), I get a little confused as to how to step back and be present with my experience (body, raw emotion). The emotion in my body dissipates quickly without thoughts and images.

I am recognizing that my mind has the idea that if I allow it to pass quickly, I am not "working it through." I am not sure what that looks like once awake. It has previously meant feeling into my body-mind experience and putting a clarifying story to it. What that would look like if I am awake and no longer identified with the mind - How do I make sense of my experience? Or do I no longer do that? If I don't do that, how do I communicate with my significant others so they know me?

This all will become clear after seeing through self, no need to worry about it now. In my experience, it will be better, assuming the emotional work has been done :)

Now, how familiar are you with direct experience?

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

1. You can think of the answer and try to remember

2. You can take a look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be crucial that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in this very moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in this very moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I am clear about that. With your sock question, I thought about looking at my feet for your answer. I didn't look, because I was able to feel into my feet and know I am not wearing socks without having to look. So I get that. Thanks to Ilona's podcast and others writing, I am clear on that point.

:-)

Thanks for your thoughtful responses on my other comments - they were helpful. In particular, this:

There's nothing wrong with that, but the moment you want to be a certain way, the suppression and pressure begins. Funnily enough, when this relaxes, there is more love and kindness, because it begins with yourself.

Looking forward to more!

Katty

Okay, excellent!

Let's start laying the groundwork with a few pointers. You may be familiar with these already, or they may feel elementary. If that's the case, just see it as an opportunity to practice being mindful.

I'd like you to try this as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line.

Also pay attention to how the mind wants to label, judge, interpret, and constantly make sense of things.

Sounds good. I'll enjoy doing that today.

"Same word forms" means:

Word Labels = description with one or more of the senses

So that might look like:

Tasting the coffee = bitter, creamy (thickness on the tongue)
Feeling the coffee = warmth and wet in my mouth

I am aware my descriptions are more labels. Am I trying to describe the direct experience? That I'm not sure how to truly do. I'm finding words to be completely insufficient to describe the detail of the actual experience - there is too much detail and often not enough words to even begin much of the time!

Thank you for the exercise Henri

It would look like this:

Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Feeling the coffee, simply = sensation

On the left side of = you describe and on the right is direct experience.

In my post with the pointer, you find all the direct experience labels that are available (image/color, sensation, taste, sound, thought, etc).

Does that help? :)

Does that help? :)

Yes, thank you. I was off-track. I think I have it now. My first try from this morning cutting strawberries:

Looking at the red, dotted strawberries = Seeing
Feeling the cold bumpy outsides = Sensation
Noticing the beauty of the interior of the strawberry = Seeing
Trying to describe the sight of the strawberry = Thought
Joy at the beauty in the form of a smile and warmth in my chest = Sensation
It's beautiful = Thought
Swoosh as the knife cuts through the strawberry = Sound
Tasting the creamy dessert filling I'd made = Taste
Yum! = Thought (judgment)

I'll keep at the observation exercise. Hopefully I have the right idea!

Yup, that's great.

You're using seeing instead of image/color, but that's perfectly fine :)

I just finished a recorded Yoga practice and a recorded Sound Meditation. While doing these things, I was also doing the exercise you suggested. I didn't keep notes, so I am aware now that it is all a thought experience to remember what I noticed:

Yoga
I was aware the room was cool = Sensation
I decided to turn on a heater = Thought
Throughout the recorded yoga class, I was aware of how my body felt (e.g., tight, strong, good) = Sensation
I was aware of the labeling exercise and what I would write = Thought
I noticed the instructors voice = Hearing
I misinterpreted his instructions and had to correct what I was doing = Thoughts
My body at times felt cool or warm = Sensation
The dogs would rub me for pets = Sensation
That was cute/fun = Sensation
I noticed they were a distraction from my yoga at times = Thought
They became restless at the end and started to make noises = Hearing
I would occasionally be somewhere else in my mind = Thought
I would see how I was going to write these sentences = Thought (of an image)

Sound Meditation
I was aware of the person’s voice and background sounds on the recording = Hearing
I was aware (at his suggestion) of the ringing in my ears in addition = Hearing
I was aware that sound was just happening without my having to listen = Thought
I was aware of birds chirping in addition to the recording sounds = Hearing
I wondered if I was really hearing birds = Thought
I felt really relaxed / almost tired = Sensation
I noticed my posture and sat up straighter = Thought (of an image of my poster/back)
I opened my eyes and noticed the view out the window = Seeing
I would thing about I was going to write these sentences = Thoughts
I was aware of how much was happening - describing it all would be impossible = Thoughts
Remembering it all would be impossible = Thoughts

Right now I am aware of how experience is often a combination of senses all at the same time:

I am aware how my hands just type = Sensation of typing, Seeing my hands move, and Thought about how it just happens.
The sun is streaming in and it is warm = Sensation and Seeing

I could keep going on (and will with the experiential experiment) but I am guessing more is not better in terms of giving you a huge entry on everything for the rest of my day.

My reflection on the exercise is it makes it very clear what being present is (being conscious and actively aware of the senses) versus being in my head immersed in thoughts about anything else.

I could keep going on (and will with the experiential experiment) but I am guessing more is not better in terms of giving you a huge entry on everything for the rest of my day.

Yup, no need for more. Just enough to show how you're doing it.

My reflection on the exercise is it makes it very clear what being present is (being conscious and actively aware of the senses) versus being in my head immersed in thoughts about anything else.

Great! :)

Let's now explore how the mind labels experience. This takes about 20 minutes and you will need pen and paper.

This exercise is broken into 2 x 10 minute parts. For each 10 minute part pay attention to any bodily sensation (is there any tightening, or any relaxing?)

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

- I am sitting on a chair
- I am hearing a clock ticking
- I am looking at a computer screen
- I am feeling hungry

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the second ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”.

Describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

- Sitting on a chair
- Typing
- Breathing
- Blinking
- Hearing the clock
- Hunger

(Watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy! :)