The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there´s nobody here doing anything, it´s an ilusion of control and identification with thoughts. All is happening by itself. no doer.

What are you looking for at LU?
Looking for guidance to remove all doubts and identifications that still remains here. I've been on a nondual path for a few years but never worked with anybody. Sometimes I think that's it, simple, it's just it, then doubt comes telling me it's not it, it has to be something more than that, and then seeking starts again.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Clear points towards what I am and all hidden thoughts, doubts and believes that I still identify with, and keep me stuck seeking and seeking for the next thing, thinking that 'what is' is still not it, and waiting for something to happen.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been meditating daily for 6 years, doing a lot of shadow work in the last year and started inquirying more and more throughtout the day.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Good morning

I am glad to accompany you during the investigation of seeing through the illusion of a separate self.
There are some agreements to engage with :

Check here in the forum every day or at least once per 2 days. This is important to take the flow of looking. If you are not OK with this, I will invite another guide for you.

Put aside all what you know about advaita, spirituality, oneness or whatever around this topic.

Be 100% honest when you give answers : that is you are certain that the answer is true and seen in direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations).

Read the disclaimer text and learn how to use the quote function (instructions are given on this forum).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Let me know when we can begin.

best wishes
Warissem

Hello Warissem,

First of all, I really appreciate your guidance.

I'll definetely check the forum daily.

I'm ready start.

Hi

You said that it is seen through but there are some doubts going on. I invite you to look at this :

I am walking,
I am seeing
I am hearing
I am feeling sensations
I am thinking
I am angry
I am cool
I am experiencing
I am choosing and deciding

Put a Yes or No in front of each assumption like this : I am tasting, No. when you know for sure there is no you, Yes when you know for sure there is you, a separate self.
After having given the answers, tell me why it is a Yes and why it is No.

Best for you

Hi Warissem,

I am walking

No, walking is happening without a "Me", me is just a thought that might come afterwards.

I am seeing

No, colors and forms are seen, movements are happening, the "I" thought might appear, but it's also seen just as a thought.

I am hearing

No, sounds are happening, hearing is also happening by itself, without effort.

I am feeling sensations

No, sensations are spontaneously happening in what it seems to be the body. When I close my eyes, there's only sensations and it might feel there's a body, but only when a thought and imagination appears.

I am thinking

No, there are thoughts coming and going. Attention still very often get attached to thoguhts and stories and it feels like I get lost in it, and doubt comes as a thought saying 'if I've seen through, that shouldn't have happened". I can see it's just a thought, but still quite convincing, because there's a belief here that once it's seen through, getting lost in stories shouldn't happen.

I am angry

Yes, there's contraction and it does feel like there's a me that's angry and quite often acts on it.

I am cool

No, okaneyss is here, no one here to be cool when investigated.

I am experiencing

No, thoughts, sensations, sounds, seeing is all coming and going without anybody experiencing. It feels like sometimes I'm experiencing, but again, when investigated it's clearly seen I was identified with a thought, and without this thought, there's just experiencing happening.

I am choosing and deciding

Yes, it feels like I am choosing, but when investigated, this "I" is just a thought, without it, choosing just happened.


Even though I answered "No" to most questions, there's still a strong doubt that says "It can't be just it, what if it's not it, there has to be a more profound shift, it doens't feel like most people describe it".

Kind regards.

Good evening

These are somme comments :

Even though I answered "No" to most questions, there's still a strong doubt that says "It can't be just it, what if it's not it, there has to be a more profound shift, it doens't feel like most people describe it".

First, don't believe what others say, just lean on your direct experience here now : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations. Thoughts and concepts are used to communicate.
2nd, yes it is so obvious and simple that we miss it. It is being knowingly aware.

No, there are thoughts coming and going. Attention still very often get attached to thoguhts and stories and it feels like I get lost in it,

There is no you to be lost in thought. Awareness is always clear. Without this clarity, doubts and confusion won't be seen.

Yes,and doubt comes as a thought saying 'if I've seen through, that shouldn't have happened". I can see it's just a thought, but still quite convincing, because there's a belief here that once it's seen through, getting lost in stories shouldn't happen.

There is a habit to be lost in story, it continues to operate but after while it is seen as a story.

there's contraction and it does feel like there's a me that's angry and quite often acts on it.

yes, there is sensation or a movement of energy but there is no link with a you. What is this you, a color, a sound, a sensation, a thought, a mental image, a story ?

Best for you

Hey Warissem, good morning.

Firstly, I'm so glad you're helping me with this. Even thought I've been on this path for a few years, I've never had anyone to talk about it and ask questions. Thank you.

There is a habit to be lost in story, it continues to operate but after while it is seen as a story.

Great, so there's nothing wrong with it, right? What I've been noticing though, is "I" catch myself more and more often and just return to what is. I do feel there's still a strong habit of getting seduced by thoughts and believing them for a while, until "I" notice it again and get back here. It's also seen there's nobody noticing it and it feels like I can't choose that at all, being lost in thoughts happens and "waking up" from that also happens. Frustration from being lost in it comes and it's also seen.

yes, there is sensation or a movement of energy but there is no link with a you. What is this you, a color, a sound, a sensation, a thought, a mental image, a story ?

It feels like sensations, contraction in the body and thoughts saying this is "me". These unconfortable sensations plus thoughts seems to make the story real, so identification happens. I guess this is the thing that is causing me a lot of doubts and frustation, even though I see I don't seem to control it.

Kind regards

Hey Warissem, good morning.

Firstly, I'm so glad you're helping me with this. Even thought I've been on this path for a few years, I've never had anyone to talk about it and ask questions. Thank you.

There is a habit to be lost in story, it continues to operate but after while it is seen as a story.

Great, so there's nothing wrong with it, right? What I've been noticing though, is "I" catch myself more and more often and just return to what is. I do feel there's still a strong habit of getting seduced by thoughts and believing them for a while, until "I" notice it again and get back here. It's also seen there's nobody noticing it and it feels like I can't choose that at all, being lost in thoughts happens and "waking up" from that also happens. Frustration from being lost in it comes and it's also seen.

yes, there is sensation or a movement of energy but there is no link with a you. What is this you, a color, a sound, a sensation, a thought, a mental image, a story ?

It feels like sensations, contraction in the body and thoughts saying this is "me". These unconfortable sensations plus thoughts seems to make the story real, so identification happens. I guess this is the thing that is causing me a lot of doubts and frustation, even though I see I don't seem to control it.

Kind regards

Hey Warissem, good morning.

Firstly, I'm so glad you're helping me with this. Even thought I've been on this path for a few years, I've never had anyone to talk about it and ask questions. Thank you.

There is a habit to be lost in story, it continues to operate but after while it is seen as a story.

Great, so there's nothing wrong with it, right? What I've been noticing though, is "I" catch myself more and more often and just return to what is. I do feel there's still a strong habit of getting seduced by thoughts and believing them for a while, until "I" notice it again and get back here. It's also seen there's nobody noticing it and it feels like I can't choose that at all, being lost in thoughts happens and "waking up" from that also happens. Frustration from being lost in it comes and it's also seen.

yes, there is sensation or a movement of energy but there is no link with a you. What is this you, a color, a sound, a sensation, a thought, a mental image, a story ?

It feels like sensations, contraction in the body and thoughts saying this is "me". These unconfortable sensations plus thoughts seems to make the story real, so identification happens. I guess this is the thing that is causing me a lot of doubts and frustation, even though I see I don't seem to control it.

Kind regards

Hey Warissem, good morning.

Firstly, I'm so glad you're helping me with this. Even thought I've been on this path for a few years, I've never had anyone to talk about it and ask questions. Thank you.

There is a habit to be lost in story, it continues to operate but after while it is seen as a story.

Great, so there's nothing wrong with it, right? What I've been noticing though, is "I" catch myself more and more often and just return to what is. I do feel there's still a strong habit of getting seduced by thoughts and believing them for a while, until "I" notice it again and get back here. It's also seen there's nobody noticing it and it feels like I can't choose that at all, being lost in thoughts happens and "waking up" from that also happens. Frustration from being lost in it comes and it's also seen.

yes, there is sensation or a movement of energy but there is no link with a you. What is this you, a color, a sound, a sensation, a thought, a mental image, a story ?

It feels like sensations, contraction in the body and thoughts saying this is "me". These unconfortable sensations plus thoughts seems to make the story real, so identification happens. I guess this is the thing that is causing me a lot of doubts and frustation, even though I see I don't seem to control it.

Kind regards

Hi

Firstly, I'm so glad you're helping me with this. Even thought I've been on this path for a few years, I've never had anyone to talk about it and ask questions. Thank you.

You are welcome.

Great, so there's nothing wrong with it, right? What I've been noticing though, is "I" catch myself more and more often and just return to what is. I do feel there's still a strong habit of getting seduced by thoughts and believing them for a while, until "I" notice it again and get back here. It's also seen there's nobody noticing it and it feels like I can't choose that at all, being lost in thoughts happens and "waking up" from that also happens. Frustration from being lost in it comes and it's also seen.

Here is an exercise which helps to be clear about thoughts : answer separately to each question.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

It feels like sensations, contraction in the body and thoughts saying this is "me". These unconfortable sensations plus thoughts seems to make the story real, so identification happens. I guess this is the thing that is causing me a lot of doubts and frustation, even though I see I don't seem to control it.

What is this you, a color, a sound, a sensation, a thought, a mental image, a story ?

Best for you

Hi Warissem.

I did the exercise as you said.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Can't really say where, so I'd say coming from nowhere and vanishing.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Not at all, they just appear by themselves.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, I can't control that, it just shows up without me choosing it.

Can you predict your next thought?

No, it just arises, and another thought might come saying I chose it, but it's just another thought arising.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No, if I could I wouldn't choose any suffering thoughts, but they continue to appear whether this "I" want it or not.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, they just come out of nowhere.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No, they just come and go spontansly, just like words come as I write this. Reflection on these thoughts come afterwards, but this is also a happening.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No control about that.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

There are just thoughts happening. What seems to happen is thoughts reflecting on previous thoughts, but once this is seen, they tend to dissipate.

What is this you, a color, a sound, a sensation, a thought, a mental image, a story ?

It seems to be thoughts, because when I drop it, there are just sensations, images, colors, this body.

Thank you

Kind regards

Good morning

You have done good observations about thoughts.

Is there someone, a separate self saying "I" ?

Best for you

Hi there, good morning.

Is there someone, a separate self saying "I" ?

No, as I write this, thoughts and words just appear, without me choosing them. Choice also happens by itself, it’s made before a thought saying I chose it.

I feel lately that seeking has dropped quite significantly. I feel much relaxed knowing all is happening and I’m not responsible for anything, even when I’m totally lost in thoughts and I catch myself, even this I don’t seem to have any control. Before I was always struggling and forcing myself to be vigilant and aware, and lot of frustration because despite all effort, it didn’t seem to work. I’m not sure if this is the right attitude to have but at the moment feels a lot lighter and peaceful.. frustration and doubt still comes sometimes saying I’m abandoning the path and that will make me asleep again. I can see all these stories going on but not paying so much attention anymore, just being and investigation these sensations as they come.

Kind regards

Good evening

No, as I write this, thoughts and words just appear, without me choosing them. Choice also happens by itself, it’s made before a thought saying I chose it.

Yes, there is no I, no you in any shape or form. There is no you writing, writing is happening.

I feel lately that seeking has dropped quite significantly. I feel much relaxed knowing all is happening and I’m not responsible for anything, even when I’m totally lost in thoughts and I catch myself, even this I don’t seem to have any control.

Yes, there is no you seeking anyway, do you see this?

Before I was always struggling and forcing myself to be vigilant and aware, and lot of frustration because despite all effort, it didn’t seem to work. I’m not sure if this is the right attitude to have but at the moment feels a lot lighter and peaceful..

No effort is needed to be aware. Peace is the perfume of freedom.

frustration and doubt still comes sometimes saying I’m abandoning the path and that will make me asleep again. I can see all these stories going on but not paying so much attention anymore, just being and investigation these sensations as they come.

Yes, just be knowingly aware.

I invite you to do this investigation to deepen the seeing of no separate self :
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Best for you