The Gate

Have been reading the "Gateless gate crashers" and have just reached a point of frustration. I truly want to let go of this lie in the belief of the "I". I have had so much anger, frustration, sadness, emptiness from seeing that it is all just a lie and yet I don't know how to get past it to seeing the truth. I so desperately want some help. I have so many questions. Thank you for any help. Lonni

Hello my name is StepVheN

Hello StepVhen

So lets begin what are you trying to do here?

I'm trying to drop the illusion of self. I have been reading the book and just becoming so frustrated. How can there not be an I to achieve our goals? How can there not be an I that sets up those goals? Without an I are we just at the mercy of whatever happens? I have such a strong fear that without managing fears, keeping a smile, watching my thoughts...that all of it will swirl out of control. That all of my fears will take over.
Whew...its just so much! Thank you for your help!

I'm trying to drop the illusion of self. I have been reading the book and just becoming so frustrated.

Right. Well you can't just choose to stop being you. You have to first see if you exist or not. Afterwards you can stop pretending to be a self.

How can there not be an I to achieve our goals?

Logically? Who cares. You have the rest of your life to figure that out.
The more important question is. "Is there a self?"

We are lucky here because everyone has access to this.
If selves exist then there should be one right now living your life.
Take a look for it.

How can there not be an I that sets up those goals?

That question is highlighting just how much blind faith you've put in this notion of a self.
Do you see how you ask "how can there not be an I ?" rather than "what is it that does set up these goals?"

Obviously there are goals, obviously they are set up. What sets them up? Is a self required in order for these goals to be set up?

I'd like you to make a list of all the thins needed to set up and accomplish a goal.
Post it up here.
Then review that list and see if there is a self required for any of those things or if they can be simply carried out by the human body/brain complex regardless of whether or not self exists.

All that exists of you Lonni is an idea in the mind of a human animal. Can you get your head around that?
What you think of as your life is totally impersonal. The animal is living it's life and as it does so it thinks up a self and plays out the role of this self.

You are not the animal. There is no you. You're not the animal, you're not the thoughts of a self. All of it works perfectly without you.

Without an I are we just at the mercy of whatever happens?

The animal does it's thing regardless. If there was a self, and that self started to act as though it didn't exist, then it'd be fucked. It'd be in deep deep shit and at the mercy of the outside world.
But there is no self. This is a non issue. Nothing to be afraid of. The animal that lives your life will no more be at the mercy of the outside world than Lion on the Serengeti is.

Lions have no self either. They do okay.

I have such a strong fear that without managing fears, keeping a smile, watching my thoughts...that all of it will swirl out of control.

Why would fear management or keeping a smile stop?

These aren't things you do. These are things that the human animal, that thinks there is a self does. They have nothing to do with you. Never have.
That will keep going. You were never doing that in the first place.

That all of my fears will take over.
Whew...its just so much! Thank you for your help!

My pleasure.



See there's no you. There's already no you. Want to know what changes after liberation?
The animal that though up a self, is no longer bound to that self. It's liberated. It can do things beyond the narrow scope of that defined self image.
That's all there ever was self image.
There was never any actual self.

Just a picture of it, and the animal that thought up the picture, spent it's life pretending to be it.

Hello StepVhen,
Well first I would find what I wanted to achieve. Then I would research it, find out everything I can about it. Next, I make the first step toward the goal. Hmm, that's funny. Thoughts are going and going about what steps to take to achieve this goal. Then the thought appears...that "I" wouldnt be doing this. It seems to just be happening.

Lol at the lions have no self and they do okay. It's easier to see through the idea of an animal and how they have no self. They just are. They have needs, patterns, and I believe they even have wants. But they don't have anything running those things for them...they just do them. "I" have a glimpse of not having a self. That whatever runs the show does so without a need for a self. It's all automatic. There is no self or "I" just "life" for a lack of a better word, living, being, anything and everything.
Okay, so since there is no self...what makes the decisions? Back to the animal analogy...they seem to make decisions. They seem to know what they will or will not eat, if they like this toy or that one, so what is it that makes those kind of decisions for them? Is it all just programming and patterning? Since there is no self what started those patterns or programs? My apologies if I am being hard headed here.

Lol at the lions have no self and they do okay. It's easier to see through the idea of an animal and how they have no self. They just are. They have needs, patterns, and I believe they even have wants. But they don't have anything running those things for them...they just do them.

What about you? There's no difference with you. The need to project and uphold a sense of self is just another pattern/want.

"I" have a glimpse of not having a self.

I'm afraid not. One glimpse. One tiny momentary glimpse and you'd be free.

That whatever runs the show does so without a need for a self. It's all automatic. There is no self or "I" just "life" for a lack of a better word, living, being, anything and everything.

Naaah you haven't seen this. Sorry. Thinking you already have will prevent you from actually looking.

Okay, so since there is no self...what makes the decisions?

You are holding this at arms length. You aren't actually hearing what I'm saying. We aren't saying there is no "I" inside you experiencing life. We are saying that the person named on your birth cert does not exist.
The person your mother gave birth to does not exist.
Your mother didn't give birth to a persona at all.

YOU and all you love and think you are do not exist.

This isn't a thought experiment or a sterile logical construction.
I'm saying that Lonni has no meaning. Who you think you are is meaningless, you aren't anything.
I'm not saying you are worthless or you are nothing. You aren't anything at all, you are not even nothing. You're not less than nothing, the idea of less and more self, of self worth and value doesn't apply. It's like asking if an apple has self esteem.

Back to the animal analogy...they seem to make decisions. They seem to know what they will or will not eat, if they like this toy or that one, so what is it that makes those kind of decisions for them? Is it all just programming and patterning? Since there is no self what started those patterns or programs? My apologies if I am being hard headed here.

You're not being hard headed, you're running the wrong direction. Towards building a knowledge base about what this no-self stuff is. You're not on the same planet in terms of liberation. You're trying to scrutinize this through a telescope as though it is something really really far away and unrelated to you.
That's why you're not liberated.

You don't exist. Is that true?
If you want the answer you have to look to yourself.

Well, I wrote a whole paragraph to you but I deleted it. It was just shit of me being amicable. Oooo, so much anger right now. So, all the experiences, life lessons, the joys, the sadness, all these things that have made up my life do not exist. I understand that they are the past and the past does not exist so therefore I don't exist. Aahh shit! Just more of me running from actually looking at this. I appreciate your patience with me.

Everything like that exists. Past experiences and feelings. They existed, they happened. Where is the self in your past? Can you pick a point in the past where your "self" existed?

No where. I'm running thru the memories but I dont find any one there that these things happened to.

I was watching a bird today and noticing it was flying in an erratic pattern. Then I noticed it was chasing a moth. I laughed and laughed. I could see that it was just automatic for the bird. It saw a snack and just went for it. The moth was just doing what it does. There was no thing to orchestrate any of this. I have asked and looked for a me during my every day experiences. They seem the same as the bird and moth. It's just automatically happening. I'm not running the show...nothing is. I'm finding more things are really funny. When the laughter comes it just happens. It's not anything really hilarious just laughing.
I had this dream last night that at first made no sense. But as I sat and thought about it I saw how it correlates to what is going on now. I was in this house with a couple of other people. One person was cleaning the house. Then I noticed there were ants every where. I kept asking where did they come from. No one knew. Then I saw kittens. First one then two and so on til there were eight of them. I asked where did they come from. No one knew. Then I saw an orange balloon, then a yellow one just floating around. Once again I asked where did they come from. No one knew. Toys were turning themselves on and moving around the house. No one knew how they started. LOL Just another thing I was laughing at today. It's been quite a while since I have had such spontanious laughter.

Well hell! Since there is no Lonni then why the hell should I be nice any more? I was raised with the morals that a person should treat others as they would like to be treated. Well...if there is no me and there is no them what the fuck does it matter??? Why should we care how nice we are to others??? Maybe there is karma and things do come back to you. But then again, maybe thats just life living fucking life!!!
All the studying I have done over 30 + yrs of learning to watch your thoughts, watch what you say, watch what you do because ALL of this will come back to you. Who the fuck is YOU??? Who does it come back to??? Since it all just happens automatically and "I" have nothing to do with it then what the hell cares what is done or said or thought???

You're missing the point.

Don't try and act as though there is no you until you have seen there is no you on a personal level.

Do you hear me?

Look