The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
It seems, that there are mental and physical activities which, in the course of the development of an individual human being, get bound together by and identified with the instance of a self which feels like a very real entity, separate and distanced from the world, but in fact is a purely mind-made illusion and not what actually is.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for a guide who is willing to work with me on a regular basis and can help me seeing through self once and for all (there have been glimpses for sure, but identification with mind and especially body still happens).

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Guidance could benefit me in multiple ways, especially since doubt and trust seem to be big issues for me on the path, so getting in touch with somebody who has walked it before would, I imagine, give me important feedback and grounding.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Starting out with Zen sitting mediation about three years ago, I felt an increasing pull towards something that I couldn't really name at the beginning, until it became like a vortex and the felt center of my life. After discovering non-duality speakers about 15 months ago, the questioning of the nature of reality and experiencing deepened, and inquiry methods started to complement my daily sitting practise, to both of which I dedicate every free minute. Recently, I also dipped into the fetters model whose clearly structured approach seems to resonate with me quite well.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi,

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

3. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

4. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?
2. How will you change when the separate self is seen to be an illusion?
3. What do you want or expect to be different?
4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

Enjoy! :)

Hi Henri,
Thank you for doing this! I'm Tom and ready to dive in.
Here's what came to mind reading your questions about expectations:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?

Nothing will change, how could life change? However, my perspective on life or, more precisely, the lived experience of this particular body/mind might change.

2. How will you change when the separate self is seen to be an illusion?

It's clearly intuited and temporarily felt that there is no one that could change in the first place, on the other hand, I expect that "selfing" will continue to function even after seeing through self, but maybe it will lose traction over time.

3. What do you want or expect to be different?

Actually, if I look deep down inside, everything already is very much ok, so getting the feel of this, nothing needs to be different, but on the surface, identifying (especially with doubt) seems to happen frequently, so somehow changing this is what some part of me apparently wants.

4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

This ties in with the last question, a short answer would be: a sense of permanent clarity.

Hello Tom!

It's clearly intuited and temporarily felt that there is no one that could change in the first place, on the other hand, I expect that "selfing" will continue to function even after seeing through self, but maybe it will lose traction over time.

Selfing almost always continues after the self illusion falls. What usually happens after the separate self is a lot of emotional work or reactivity.

What we're inquiring into here at LU is seeing that there is no doer, decider, thinker, intender, and so on.

Actually, if I look deep down inside, everything already is very much ok, so getting the feel of this, nothing needs to be different, but on the surface, identifying (especially with doubt) seems to happen frequently, so somehow changing this is what some part of me apparently wants.

These are the answers I'm looking for.

So when there is less identifying with doubt, what will happen?

This ties in with the last question, a short answer would be: a sense of permanent clarity.

What does permanent clarity look like?

And what will happen when there is permanent clarity?

Hello Henri,

What usually happens after the separate self is a lot of emotional work or reactivity.

Yes, this is clearly sensed and the need to address this came online for me a couple of months after the first glimpse. I do emotional work and, even though it can be very intense and challenging at times and there seems to be no end to it, I very much enjoy it.

So when there is less identifying with doubt, what will happen?

It's clear that doubt always comes with believe (as sort of flipside of believe), so it's essentially thought and no problem when being recognised as such. What often happens though is, that even when a doubt is noticed as thought, after some time it starts popping up again, so I guess, there must be underlying, deeply rooted believes that haven't been seen yet, and consequently I would expect these cycles of resurfacing to change when there is less identifying with doubt.

And what will happen when there is permanent clarity?

Rereading the term 'permanent clarity', I see that it's based on the believe that there is such a thing as permanence (which in direct experiencing is clearly not the case), so I can only answer the question with "I don't know" or "how could I know".

Yes, this is clearly sensed and the need to address this came online for me a couple of months after the first glimpse. I do emotional work and, even though it can be very intense and challenging at times and there seems to be no end to it, I very much enjoy it.

It's great that you enjoy it. How do you work with emotions?

It's clear that doubt always comes with believe (as sort of flipside of believe), so it's essentially thought and no problem when being recognised as such. What often happens though is, that even when a doubt is noticed as thought, after some time it starts popping up again, so I guess, there must be underlying, deeply rooted believes that haven't been seen yet, and consequently I would expect these cycles of resurfacing to change when there is less identifying with doubt.

Yes, usually doubt is an avoidance of a feeling. Next time you notice doubt, notice what the feeling is in the body.

Rereading the term 'permanent clarity', I see that it's based on the believe that there is such a thing as permanence (which in direct experiencing is clearly not the case), so I can only answer the question with "I don't know" or "how could I know".

Yes, that is correct, but there is a desire here that we are looking to uncover.

So when there is permanent clarity, what is it that will happen that is desired?

It can be easy to push it aside by deconstructing it with direct experience or through knowledge/thought, but knowing the underlying motivations will itself bring clarity.

It's great that you enjoy it. How do you work with emotions?

I do somatic experiencing with a certified facilitator (which some might not classify as emotional work in a strict sense, but it helps me getting access to and holding space for bodily sensations), and then, while sitting, I intentionally look into emotions and resistance in a kind of freely adapted Kiloby inquiry style.

Yes, usually doubt is an avoidance of a feeling. Next time you notice doubt, notice what the feeling is in the body.

Good point. Usually, it's a feeling very deep inside the chest area that is interpreted as shame and/or fear (saying "I'm not good enough" resp. "I'm not safe" or "Will I be safe?"), but I will examine this more closely.

So when there is permanent clarity, what is it that will happen that is desired?

What comes instantaneously to mind is: peace.

I do somatic experiencing with a certified facilitator (which some might not classify as emotional work in a strict sense, but it helps me getting access to and holding space for bodily sensations), and then, while sitting, I intentionally look into emotions and resistance in a kind of freely adapted Kiloby inquiry style.

Sounds good! Kiloby inquiries is excellent.

Good point. Usually, it's a feeling very deep inside the chest area that is interpreted as shame and/or fear (saying "I'm not good enough" resp. "I'm not safe" or "Will I be safe?"), but I will examine this more closely.

Okay, very good. Now notice where in the body this sensation is that is labeled these things, then let go of any label of shame/fear/not good enough, and bathe in the core of that sensation, where it is strongest.

Notice any distancing into witnessing it, or resisting it, or feeling it only to get rid of it. Allow it to be fully, and immerse yourself in it until it is done.

Are you able to do this?

What comes instantaneously to mind is: peace.

And when there is peace, what will life look like?

What will be here, and what will no longer be here that is here now?

Now notice where in the body this sensation is that is labeled these things, then let go of any label of shame/fear/not good enough, and bathe in the core of that sensation, where it is strongest.
Notice any distancing into witnessing it, or resisting it, or feeling it only to get rid of it. Allow it to be fully, and immerse yourself in it until it is done.
Are you able to do this?

It is possible, though challenging, especially the part of accepting and even loving the feeling unconditionally (a lingering believe that the feeling should go away seems to subtly persist). I notice that the more I can immerse myself into the raw feeling, the more a process of continuous fluctuation and morphing happens up to a point of a feeling of disorientation or even losing myself, but interestingly it never really feels like the feeling is done, it's more like an endless zooming-in into sensations, till at some point I get distracted or tired, and the process comes to a halt.

And when there is peace, what will life look like?
What will be here, and what will no longer be here that is here now?

The first part of the question my mind answers with: there will be less agitation, less distraction, and more presence. This is contradicted when, responding to the second part, my intuition tells me clearly that everything is here all the time, so nothing will be here that's not already here and nothing that's here will be lost.

It is possible, though challenging, especially the part of accepting and even loving the feeling unconditionally (a lingering believe that the feeling should go away seems to subtly persist). I notice that the more I can immerse myself into the raw feeling, the more a process of continuous fluctuation and morphing happens up to a point of a feeling of disorientation or even losing myself, but interestingly it never really feels like the feeling is done, it's more like an endless zooming-in into sensations, till at some point I get distracted or tired, and the process comes to a halt.

That's interesting that you say it never feels done. Usually the feeling begins to shift and release quite quickly if fully immersed in.

Is there a protective mechanism in place?

Ask the feeling if it's protecting something, and also why it wants to stay. Is there something it wants to share?

It could also be that the resistance to it is holding it there (belief that feeling should go away). So see if you can fully welcome the resistance to the feeling. You could ask: Can I accept that I want this feeling to go away?

That may then allow more access to the feeling.

The first part of the question my mind answers with: there will be less agitation, less distraction, and more presence. This is contradicted when, responding to the second part, my intuition tells me clearly that everything is here all the time, so nothing will be here that's not already here and nothing that's here will be lost.

Yes, usually this comes down to wanting to feel better. There's a constant movement into distraction, resistance and thinking. Anything to avoid what is right here. But there is no such thing as always feeling good. And in the end, that is completely okay, but it has to become experiential, sink into the body.

Now, how familiar are you with direct experience?

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

1. You can think of the answer and try to remember

2. You can take a look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be crucial that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in this very moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

That's interesting that you say it never feels done. Usually the feeling begins to shift and release quite quickly if fully immersed in.
Is there a protective mechanism in place?

I’m familiar with fully immersing and ‘burning’ a feeling until nothing is left than a feeling of contentment. This happens regularly with intense emotions, but rarely with these kind of underlying subtle feelings, so I guess, that a protection mechanism is in place indeed.

Now, how familiar are you with direct experience?

I’m familiar with and clear about it.

I’m familiar with fully immersing and ‘burning’ a feeling until nothing is left than a feeling of contentment. This happens regularly with intense emotions, but rarely with these kind of underlying subtle feelings, so I guess, that a protection mechanism is in place indeed.

It could also be that you're dealing with waves of feelings. I've sometimes sat with these waves for a few hours until they're done.

Explore if there's a protective mechanism and/or welcome the resistance, if there is any, and let me know how it goes. It sounds like you are very familiar with emotional work, which is excellent.

I’m familiar with and clear about it.

Alright!

Let's start laying the groundwork with a few pointers. You may be familiar with these already, or they may feel elementary. If that's the case, just see it as repetition.

I'd like you to try this as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line.

Also pay attention to how the mind wants to label, judge, interpret, and constantly make sense of things. When this happens, bring it back to 'now'.

You may be familiar with these already, or they may feel elementary. If that's the case, just see it as repetition.

Yes, I'm particularly familiar with Shinzen Young's Feel Hear See practice, but haven't done it a lot lately, so it's a good reminder. Below some lists of activities from today (drawn from memory, only the last one being a kind of real time protocol).


Taking a shower
Feeling the tap = sensation
Hearing the water coming out of the shower head = sound
Feeling the water on the skin = sensation
Seeing the shower head = colour/image
Seeing the window = colour/image
Seeing the sky outside the window = colour/image
Thinking about today's weather = thought
Feeling water tingling under the feet = sensation
Feeling the warmth of the water = sensation
Feeling the hands touching the hair = sensation
Feeling the hands touching the skull =sensation
Feeling the hands touching the shampoo bottle = sensation
Smelling the shampoo = smell
Feeling shampoo dripping on the palms = sensation
Hearing water hitting the bottom of the shower cubicle = sound
Feeling a flash of warmth on the head = sensation
Thinking about turning the water temperature down = thought
Feeling the hands rubbing the scalp = sensation
Feeling water running down the face = sensation
Feeling foam on the eye lids = sensation
Feeling the hand on the eyes = sensation
Feeling a pressure inside the eye socket = sensation
Hearing the door bell ringing = sound
Thinking who might ring the door bell = thought
Feeling the hands touching the tap = sensation
Hearing the feet hitting the floor = sound
Feeling the cold floor under the feet = sensation
Seeing the towel rail = colour/image
Thinking where the towel might be = thought
Seeing the towel on the stool = colour/image
Feeling the hands touching the towel = sensation
Feeling the surface of the towel on the skin = sensation


Walk in the park
Feeling the feet touching the ground, simply = sensation
Seeing a tree, simply = image/colour
Hearing a car passing by, simply = sound
Seeing a passer-by, simply = looking
Thinking about the clothes of the passer-by, simply = thought
Hearing a bird, simply = sound
Thinking about the type of the bird, simply = thought
Thinking about which path to choose, simply = thought
Feeling the wind on the skin, simply = sensation
Feeling some water drops on the skin, simply = sensation
Thinking about whether it'll start to rain, simply = thought
Feeling the feet touching the ground, simply = sensation
Feeling the breath, simply = sensation
Looking into the sky, simply = image/colour
Feeling water drops on the skin, simply = sensation
Feeling the feet touching the ground, simply = sensation
Hearing the sound of the feet on leaves, simply = sound

Just sitting meditation
Feeling the buttocks on the cushion, simply = sensation
Feeling the breath in the nose, simply = sensation
Feeling a little pressure the upper chest, simply = sensation
Feeling tingling in the feet, simply = sensation
Feeling the lower belly move, simply = sensation
Thinking about changing the posture, simply = thought
Hearing the gong, simply = sound
Hearing a crackle outside, simply = sound
Feeling the chest moving up and down, simply = sensation
Seeing the carpet, simply = image/colour
Smelling sheep hair of the carpet, simply = smell
Hearing voices on the street, simply = sound
Thinking what time it is, simply = thought
Seeing changing patterns on the carpet, simply = colour/image
Feeling warmth in the lower belly, simply = sensation

Typing on the keyboard
Seeing the hands moving, simply = colour/image
Feeling fingertips on the keys, simply = sensation
Feeling the buttocks moving on the chair, simply = sensation
Seeing an incoming mail, simply = colour/image
Thinking whether to open the mail, simply = thought
Seeing the cursor blinking, simply = sensation
Smelling the laundry, simply = smell
Hearing the a police car outside, simply = sound
Hearing a child yelling, simply = sound
Feeling the hand on the surface of the mouse, simply = sensation
Thinking about stopping typing, simply = thought
Thinking about observing thinking, simply = thought
Feeling the index finger on a key, simply = sensation
Hearing the sound of a key, simply = sound

Alright. This is great.

And continuing on this...

Let's now explore how the mind labels experience. This takes about 20 minutes and you will need pen and paper.

This exercise is broken into 2 x 10 minute parts. For each 10 minute part pay attention to any bodily sensation (is there any tightening, or any relaxing?)

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

- I am sitting on a chair
- I am hearing a clock ticking
- I am looking at a computer screen
- I am feeling hungry

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the second ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”.

Describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

- Sitting on a chair
- Typing
- Breathing
- Blinking
- Hearing the clock
- Hunger

(Watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy! :)

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

I struggle a bit with the comparative as I would both experiences describe as whole and true in their own right, the second one felt significantly less distorted though, so in that sense it might be called 'truer'.

2. What is here without labels?

Formless, timeless, undescribable experience, for lack of better words.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

It depends, the direct experience cannot be affected by descriptions as they are time-bound constructions of the mind and always come 'too late', but If I compare the experiences as they are present in memory right now, they were rather different which most likely has to do with the applied modes of description, so in that sense descriptions do affect the experience.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Yes, in the 'I-mode' there were a lot of knots and contractions forming in the body, everything tended to feel heavy, like being sucked inwards, while the second experience felt much more open, lighter, and outwards flowing.