The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The character which is Deborah is a collection of roles, each coming with values, judgements, beliefs and expectations. These make up the story of who Deborah thinks she is through which all experience and interaction is viewed. Identification with this false notion of self causes disharmony and suffering in mind and the world.

What are you looking for at LU?
To be guided to appreciate that which is permanent beneath the character I think I am. To find unity of purpose in all things and to be less reactive to circumstance. I don't seem to be able to do this on my own.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be asked questions and be challenged on my answers, explore where they may have originated and question their validity. To receive requests for exploring ideas and to be asked to apply those ideas in daily life, to review the experience and to explore what it may point to

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Christian background, non church going parents, no guidance spiritually from parents but attendance of church affiliated organisations Formal Christian education at school. No resonance. Association with Hare Krishna movement 16-19 years of age but did not become a devotee. Introduced to Freud and Jung during nurse training but studied only enough to pass exams. Other than that began with self help and other books around 25. Books with lasting impressions - The Prophet, Kahlil gibran - The Road Less Travelled, Scott Peck - Emotional Intelligence, Daniel Goldman -Awareness, Anthony De Mello- Women Who Run With Wolves, Clarissa Pinkola Estes and more recently A Course in Miracles scribed by Helen Schucman. My experience has been all roads point to Rome. But what is Rome and where can I find it?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi Deborah!

I'm Henri.

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, sight, sound, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

6. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?
Different one: 5. Say silently or out loud: 'I have no expectations when it comes to seeing that there is no self' - Watch what images, sounds/voices, sensations/feelings come up and share what is found.

Enjoy! :)

Hi Henri, yes please, I would like that. I'm at work now. I will reply more fully tomorrow am. Thanks, Deb

Understood :)

1. How will life change?

My first thought was, how will life change - when- what? There is no end to the question..so added - . when I realise there is no I.. Then a step back. Life will not change, how it is perceived will change.

2. How will you change?

Deborah will still be Deborah, carrying out the activities she normally does but she will know she is not Deborah. Ummmmmm. confusion, upset, disharmony associated with being Deborah can be stepped away from, will drop. There will be a state that is constant, that is not that.

3. What will be different?

I'm unsure what will be different but imagine I will be less likely to throw myself into drama and to drop defences that separate me, and close me off from everything.

4. What is missing?

I'm not sure I understand this question. I want to say, there is nothing missing and even, there is too much


Different one: 5. Say silently or out loud: 'I have no expectations when it comes to seeing that there is no self'

Before reading the - what this is not, my expectation was that there would be more peace in the mind and feelings of joy.  there was surprise and reading the whole of the list a real sense of , I've no idea what this is..  asking this question this morning, there was no sensation, thought of, i really dont know what to expect and an eagerness and willingness to find out.  also seeing my answers to the above questions seem to have expectations.
Henri , thank you again for offering to be my guide here.  I work shifts so may not always answer straight away.  Apologies re the question 4 and 5 mash up. I dont seem to be able to fix.

Thanks, Deb

Ummmmmm. confusion, upset, disharmony associated with being Deborah can be stepped away from, will drop. There will be a state that is constant, that is not that.

No state can be eliminated by seeing there is no I. What changes is that there is no one the disharmony happens to, and no identifying with someone doing it.

A helpful way to see this is that it's not freedom from something, but freedom with everything.

I'm unsure what will be different but imagine I will be less likely to throw myself into drama and to drop defences that separate me, and close me off from everything.

Yes, this is a bit more likely :)

Before reading the - what this is not, my expectation was that there would be more peace in the mind and feelings of joy. there was surprise and reading the whole of the list a real sense of , I've no idea what this is.. asking this question this morning, there was no sensation, thought of, i really dont know what to expect and an eagerness and willingness to find out. also seeing my answers to the above questions seem to have expectations.

That's a good place to be!

And those are some good observations. Most people are escaping from something, so they want joy, bliss, peace, and a way to avoid all the bad stuff, which often translates to: "When I see there's no I, then I'll be happy forever."

Even if you don't expect anything intellectually, there is often something deeper, but we will deal with that if/when it comes up.

Henri , thank you again for offering to be my guide here. I work shifts so may not always answer straight away. Apologies re the question 4 and 5 mash up. I dont seem to be able to fix.

No problem!

As long as you answer every 24 to 48 hours, this should go just fine. If you need more time, just let me know.

Let's get started laying the foundation with this:

Socks Exercise

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

- You can think and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Hi Henri, I do understand the difference. I may need reminding or for you to highlight when I forget or become confused. I feel that this is where I stumble.

I will remind if needed :)

Here's the next one:

Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above.

Thanks, I will do this tomorrow thought out the day. Working now.

Waking
Mattress under-covers over - sensation
Comfort - sensation
Dogs next to me - sensation
warmth of dogs - sensation
scent of dogs - smell
covers crinkling - sound
noise of car on street - sound
noise of fan - sound
urning over - movement
feet on floor - sensation


Making/drinking coffee
filling kettle - movement, sound
seeing cups - shapes, colours
choosing cup - thought
hand on cup - sensation
kettle boiling sound
clinking of spoons containers -sound
warmth of cup - sensation
drinking coffee - taste

sitting on couch
feeling couch under and behind me - sensation
comfort - sensation
warmth and softness of blanket - sensation
dogs - image listening to vibrations - sound
ambient temperature - sensation
writing list - movement sensation
sunlight through doors - image sensation
objects in room -images
points of contact of body parts in seated position- sensation
noise of breathing - sound
action of breathing - movement
drinking coffee -movement taste
cup on lips - sensation
coffee through mouth into throat swallow - sensation
itch on cheek - sensation
scratching itch - sensation movement
feeling dogs breath on my foot sensation

movement, decision made to get dressed and take dogs out

brushing teeth
toothpaste -taste
brushing movement rhythm
water running - sensation

Dog walk
body walking - movement rhythm
earth, trees flowers smells, shapes, movement, colours (here mind wanted to make distinctions between sweet smells, earthy smells and so on and different shapes also noticed a shape of colour that mind immediately said hydrangea to because it knew there was a hydrangea there from previous walk)
foot on path, grass, mud, street - sensation (also making comparisons about the testures and resistances under foot)
cars - colours movement sound
breeze on face sensation
sun on face sensation
breeze in trees - movement sound
sky clouds - colours movement
noticed that at points on the walk mind looking for things to assign the attributes of the exercise to

Eating cheese and tomato on toast

tastes texture ssound movemen trhythm sansation.
whilst eating noticing not just texture and taste but different textures and tastes and different resistances on my teeth while biting and chewing.

Im going to have a nap now, or at least lie down and close my eyes and see what happens,  as im on night shift tonight.
please would you show me where i need to do the exercise differently.  

Im going to have a nap now, or at least lie down and close my eyes and see what happens, as im on night shift tonight.
please would you show me where i need to do the exercise differently.

Enjoy your nap!

filling kettle - movement, sound
urning over - movement

You added movement to a few of these.

What is experienced in direct experience when you turn over in bed is sensation and probably some sound, maybe image/color if you have eyes open.

The focus of this exercise is to help you get accustomed to direct experience, which is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

action of breathing - movement

Give this another try. Close your eyes and notice breathing. What from the above direct experience (DE) list is present?

brushing movement rhythm

Same here. What is noticed?

Rhythm is a concept that requires time. It's notes in certain timing over a certain period of time. That all requires concepts and thoughts.

earth, trees flowers smells, shapes, movement, colours (here mind wanted to make distinctions between sweet smells, earthy smells and so on and different shapes also noticed a shape of colour that mind immediately said hydrangea to because it knew there was a hydrangea there from previous walk)

Yes, good that you're noticing this!

Thoughts are constantly labeling experience and we often don't even notice.

tastes texture ssound movemen trhythm sansation.
whilst eating noticing not just texture and taste but different textures and tastes and different resistances on my teeth while biting and chewing.

Do you notice how much of this is thinking (labels added later, and ideas dependent on memory and knowledge)?

Overall you did excellent. Don't worry about doing any of the exercises perfectly. Just do your best, and any obstacle is simply a stepping stone forward, because it shows what needs clarification.

It's good that these nuances come up now so we can address them. Makes life easier as things become more subtle and precise :)

action of breathing - movement
Give this another try. Close your eyes and notice breathing. What from the above direct experience (DE) list is present?

scents - smelling
temperature of air passing through nostrils - sensation
air hitting back of nose - sensation
lungs emptying and filling sensation
noise of passage of air - hearing
thoughts arising

tastes texture ssound movemen trhythm sansation.
whilst eating noticing not just texture and taste but different textures and tastes and different resistances on my teeth while biting and chewing.
Do you notice how much of this is thinking (labels added later, and ideas dependent on memory and knowledge)?

Yes I see this now - relying on past experience to make sense of the present. Should these be referred to as thoughts arising?

Understand now that movement is a sensation and that rhythm implies a span of time

Overall you did excellent. Don't worry about doing any of the exercises perfectly. Just do your best, and any obstacle is simply a stepping stone forward, because it shows what needs clarification.

Thank you for your words of encouragement and clarifations. I see that I am doing this now quite spontaneously. Would you like me to post some more examples?

The nap was great, Thank you :-)

You got it!

Thank you for your words of encouragement and clarifations. I see that I am doing this now quite spontaneously. Would you like me to post some more examples?

No this is good. If we need more refinement, we can do it on the go.

Yes I see this now - relying on past experience to make sense of the present. Should these be referred to as thoughts arising?

There's thought arising and thought content.

Thought arising = when you are just aware of a thought forming. it's more of a sensation
Thought content = you see the thought formed, and there's content (images, voices/words, and so on)

Here's the next one:

Mind Labeling

Here is an exercise which examines how the mind labels experience. This takes about 20 minutes and you will need pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 2 x 10 minute parts. For each 10 minute part pay attention to any bodily sensation (is there any tightening, or any relaxing?)

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

- I am sitting on a chair
- I am hearing a clock ticking
- I am looking at a computer screen
- I am feeling hungry

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the second ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”.

Describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

- Sitting on a chair
- Typing
- Breathing
- Blinking
- Hearing the clock
- Hunger

(Watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy! :)

10 Minutes x 1
 am sitting on the couch
i am typpingiam breathing
i am hearing the fan in the kitchen
 am scratching my head
i am hearing the dog catching flies
i can feel my hair brushing the back of my neck
i am feeling the other dog sitting close to me
i can feel my feet on the floor
 am coughing
i am touching my hand
i am hearing the keyboard clattering
i am tasting the drink of milk
i can hear the dog scratching
i can feel the weight of the keyboard on my knees
i am making myself more comfortable
i am pausing
i am seeing my shoes under the table
i am greeting the dog
i am resting on a cushion
i am feeling full i am adjusting my cushion
i can hear a fly buzzing
i can feel my l foot in my shoe
i am smiling at the dog catching the flyi am hearing the music in the background
i am moving ther keyboard
i am stretching my legs
i am wearing the black trousers
i am clenching my jaw
iam licking my lips
i am feeling the weight of the dog on my knee


10 minutes x 2
pushed by the dog
sitting on couch
feet on floor
breathing
typing
hearing keyboad clatter
seeing fone 
feeling keyboard move
hearing kitchen fan
scratching corner of eye
swallowing
sitting back
feeling tongue at back of teeth
scratching ear
moving position
feeling trousers elastic at ankles
feeling couch under, abd behind
feeling full
seeing empty cup
deep breath in
hearing music
feeling dog move
scratching head
pausing
hearing dog lick self
feeling dog lick 
hearing other dog  drink
hearing fan 
feeling itch 
seeing table 
seeing remote control
feeling full
smiling
turning head
feeling hair
big exhale
looking ast nails

Not sure Ive got the right end of the stick here

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

thats a mind twister.  no they are both equally true, its roughly the same stuff in the two lists.  yet one suggests what is happening belongs to an i whilst the other asserts that it is just happening  in the general experience.  If I am learning that there is no 'I' it would suggest the second exercise is the more truthful experience

2. What is here without labels?

eveything is here without labels. 
 

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

labeling it doesnt make it not true though it does affect the experience.  labeling gives no opportunity for the experience to be anything other than what the label and the values 'i attch to it implies.  particularly in the first exercise,  it felt like there was a boundary round it, it was finite. labels package experience, that experience then becomes informative of next experience of labelled object/experience/feeling/happening.  labels are full of preconceived ideas that become shared. labels create separation.  labels imply something fixed and not fluid. the second exercise was more impersonal;, less attached room for change because it was not attached to i it was less limiting
the body was more open and relaxed in the second exercise

Sorry still getting the hang of the practicalitie. answer to question 3 is under question 4. answer to question 4 is the last line.